New Delta TA 06/2015

[JAM-BRO]

Hmmmm. profit sharing, let's review the numbers. The first 2.5B is 10% for all employees= $250M, that's unchanged.

The only change is between $2.5B and $6B in PTIX. IOW $3.5B ($6B trigger) pays employees 10%= $350M, which is half of what it would be absent this agreement. Pilots comprise about 1/3rd of the pay roll, so $350M/3= $117m in lost profit sharing for the pilots.
Anything above $6B remains the same.

OTOH, the new contract adds about $1.1-$1.4 billion in solid gains above all the concessions on the books, including profit sharing. Last time I looked there were more zeros in a billion, than a million. But let's look at the cost of delaying ratification over time.

What is the impact of delay on monthly pilot salary?

Initial estimated impact is:

Approximately $500k per day (first 6 months)

Approximately $23.6M per month (first 18 months)

Longer term

$1.3 Billion by end of 2018

But not to worry, airlines don't typically spend 2-3 years in mediation, right?

Just ask a pilot at SWA, FDX, UPS, UAL, or AA.

FDJ2

This TA is terrifyingly BAD... Have you read thru Secction 14???? That is scary bad and there is not a single reason in this world to give up anything. The whole contract is concessionary. Even the pay rates are concessionary since they are being payed for by a reduction in PS.

Sorry, but are you really that dumb??? Are you blinded by pay rates and promises on shiny new planes?? Those planes are coming whether we vote for this POS TA or not. Grow some self respect dude. The company has disrespecfully OVERREACHED here!!! VOTE NO!!!!!!

 

[PCL_128]

Hate to say it, but they would have been better off by having Pcl negotiating that thing. He would have said, thanks, but no thanks and walked away.

Eh, probably not. JV and the LCA thing are troubling, but the rest is actually very good for a CBA (excuse me, PWA in DALPA speak) negotiated prior to the amendable date. I might have kept pushing right up until the amendable date to tighten up those areas, but it would be crazy to pass up the rest in favor of protracted traditional negotiations. Anderson wants it wrapped up in a tidy fashion. If he can't get that done, then he'll resort to the old school way of doing things, which means a contract slightly better three years down the road. Remember, the NMB won't be much help to a mega-carrier's pilot group.

 

[JAM-BRO]

Eh, probably not. JV and the LCA thing are troubling, but the rest is actually very good for a CBA (excuse me, PWA in DALPA speak) negotiated prior to the amendable date. I might have kept pushing right up until the amendable date to tighten up those areas, but it would be crazy to pass up the rest in favor of protracted traditional negotiations. Anderson wants it wrapped up in a tidy fashion. If he can't get that done, then he'll resort to the old school way of doing things, which means a contract slightly better three years down the road. Remember, the NMB won't be much help to a mega-carrier's pilot group.

Are you serious???? Pass up on what exactly?? Please enlighten me on which contract section you think was made better except pay rates(payed by PS)...

I'm glad you found the LCA bidding troubling since it will require hundreds less pilots. Just that alone should make you forget about the rest. Are u a CA or FO? Read section 14!!! If that don't give you reasons to vote no, I don't know what will. Why does ALPA believe that they have the right to give up our rights under the HIPPA Act? Are we supposed to be held to a lower standard in regards to our healthcare info privacy? Why is ALPA giving the company a green light to come after any pilot the company deems is abusing sick leave?

For me this is a no brainer. Huge NO!!

 

[troll565]

We are, in my estimation and the companys as well, the finest pilots on the planet.

 

[PCL_128]

Are you serious???? Pass up on what exactly?? Please enlighten me on which contract section you think was made better except pay rates(payed by PS)...

I'm glad you found the LCA bidding troubling since it will require hundreds less pilots. Just that alone should make you forget about the rest. Are u a CA or FO? Read section 14!!! If that don't give you reasons to vote no, I don't know what will. Why does ALPA believe that they have the right to give up our rights under the HIPPA Act? Are we supposed to be held to a lower standard in regards to our healthcare info privacy? Why is ALPA giving the company a green light to come after any pilot the company deems is abusing sick leave?

For me this is a no brainer. Huge NO!!

Relax. I'm not a Delta pilot. He mentioned me and I responded because I'm a former ALPA officer who has negotiated CBAs before. But I won't be voting on your contract, so don't get bent out of shape.

But yes, I do believe the total compensation package negotiated is excellent, especially in light of the unfavorable environment the mega-carriers are now in with the NMB.

 

[johnsonrod]

From what I have read, this TA can be improved big time in several areas. Again, big profits coming down the line - why give up that profit percentage? You will never get it back... And why the rush to get the vote done quicker? This does not pass the smell test... I would vote NO.

 

[Freebrd]

The medical deal, how can that be legal? Hasn't privacy of a person's medical records been held in court cases, hell it's the law isn't it? A Dr's note ok, I see that but not access to medical records.

 

[JAM-BRO]

The medical deal, how can that be legal? Hasn't privacy of a person's medical records been held in court cases, hell it's the law isn't it? A Dr's note ok, I see that but not access to medical records.

Just my point. Anyone who reads Section 14 Sick Leave, will automatically vote NO. The total overreach by the company is ridiculous. Even more pathetic is the fact that our NC thought it was ok to agree to it. The sad thing about yhe HIPPA Act is that it can be signed away by a collective agreement. Don't remember ever been asked by ALPA if I wanted my rights given away. Funny thing is that we have a Union that is supposed to protect us, but instead is giving the company a green light to come after its own. Sad state of affairs

 

[StopNTSing]

This will be very bad for the profession if it passes. Let us all remind ourselves (and not just Deltoids, 'cause us Corndogs are going to be in the spotlight next):

THIS IS THE BEST NEGOTIATING ENVIRONMENT MOST OF US WILL EVER SEE IN OUR CAREERS!!!!

Our airlines are making so much money right now, they can barely ship it back to the investors fast enough! BILLIONS of dollars!

IF THERE WAS EVER A TIME FOR OBTAINING AN HISTORIC CONTRACT, IT IS RIGHT F-ING NOW!!!!

...and yet this is how little respect management has for us pilots: Single digit annual raises? Real concessions? Are you f*cking $hitting me??? This is not 2001, or 2008!!! They have the money!!! Last time I checked, it was still US who move the metal that generates all that cheddar!!!

THERE IS NO REASON IN THIS ENVIRONMENT TO GRANT A SINGLE DAMN CONCESSION!!!!

(or if you do, it should be worth nickles and dimes, compared to the Benjamins you are gaining)


That is all. Now go forth and vote likewise, Gents.

 

[PCL_128]

Too simplistic of a thought process. You're ignoring the role of the NMB in all of this.

 

[redflyer65]

And to think, Genny was sure the Delta MEC would crap gold with this contract. Looks more like a steaming turd the longer it sits on the table. RA is definitely trying to outmaneuver you guys. Way too many concessions.

Ask United how JV relief and OE staffing changes worked out.

 

[PCL_128]

A SWAhole lecturing other people about contracts. Classic.

 

[redflyer65]

A SWAhole lecturing other people about contracts. Classic.

My comment wasn't directed at you PCL because it's the DL pilots contract to vote on. I don't see the appeal, but again their choice.

So yea, one Southwest pilot giving an opinion (with a contract that has no JV, no CRJ's, no codesharing) versus an opinion from a non-pilot toolbag. Doesn't that double wide you just listed need another coat of paint?

 

[PCL_128]

Never listed a doublewide, so I wouldn't know. I do have double your paycheck, though. :laugh:

 

[General Lee]

And to think, Genny was sure the Delta MEC would crap gold with this contract. Looks more like a steaming turd the longer it sits on the table. RA is definitely trying to outmaneuver you guys. Way too many concessions.

Ask United how JV relief and OE staffing changes worked out.

I never said that Red. I think everyone hoped, especially with the great negotiating climate everyone is under now, that there would be a great result. That just isn't the case.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

Too simplistic of a thought process. You're ignoring the role of the NMB in all of this.

I missed this. What's changed with NMB?

 

[redflyer65]

I never said that Red. I think everyone hoped, especially with the great negotiating climate everyone is under now, that there would be a great result. That just isn't the case.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Fair statement General. I'd like you guys to raise the bar. The payrates look good, but maybe too many concessions?

When does the vote close?

 

[PCL_128]

I missed this. What's changed with NMB?

Nothing. Their position has been consistent for a number of years now. Releasing one of the mega-carriers just isn't going to happen.

 

[JAM-BRO]

Relax. I'm not a Delta pilot. He mentioned me and I responded because I'm a former ALPA officer who has negotiated CBAs before. But I won't be voting on your contract, so don't get bent out of shape.

But yes, I do believe the total compensation package negotiated is excellent, especially in light of the unfavorable environment the mega-carriers are now in with the NMB.

Typical ALPA officer opinion. Pay rates aren't everything bud, unless you are an ALPA lifer and want more and more dues monies fotr that broken institution... It's obvious that you haven't looked at any parts of the TA except pay. Those rates are being funded by PS. Last year we got 16.58% of our W2 in PS. This year it's projected to be 22-25%. 2016-2018 even higher. We sold that for a 6% raise. Those the compensation still look good to you? Is that an "excellent package"?
Geez

Your comments about the NMB are also typical ALPA comments designed to scare line pilots.... It doesn't have to get to that. It behooves DAL to negotiate in good faith.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, I've looked at the PS, and it's more than offset by the pay raises by a significant amount. Sorry if math is difficult for you.

I'm not telling you to vote in favor. I'd probably vote against it because of the sick policy and LCA issues, actually. But the compensation package is excellent.

 

[Flopgut]

Nothing. Their position has been consistent for a number of years now. Releasing one of the mega-carriers just isn't going to happen.

Thanks!

 

[redflyer65]

Typical ALPA officer opinion. Pay rates aren't everything bud, unless you are an ALPA lifer and want more and more dues monies fotr that broken institution... It's obvious that you haven't looked at any parts of the TA except pay. Those rates are being funded by PS. Last year we got 16.58% of our W2 in PS. This year it's projected to be 22-25%. 2016-2018 even higher. We sold that for a 6% raise. Those the compensation still look good to you? Is that an "excellent package"?
Geez

Your comments about the NMB are also typical ALPA comments designed to scare line pilots.... It doesn't have to get to that. It behooves DAL to negotiate in good faith.

You're absolutely right Jam-Bro.


The relative small pay raises don't come close to making up for the future Profit Sharing loses. You guys had a great pay package last year. Decent rates (need increasing obviously), 15% B-fund (excellent), and Profit Sharing of 16.5% on top of the previous two items. That's some nice coin, and will be worth less in the future with this TA.

RA wants some of his profit sharing back, along with JV give back, reset on number of RJ's, loss in OE lines, AND sick call oversight. And he gets it in this TA. I was excited when I saw the pay rates, but then became nauseated when I saw the rest.

Vote no, and vote often. Just my opinion.

 

[jonjuan]

Yes, I've looked at the PS, and it's more than offset by the pay raises by a significant amount. Sorry if math is difficult for you.

I'm not telling you to vote in favor. I'd probably vote against it because of the sick policy and LCA issues, actually. But the compensation package is excellent.

an 8% pay raise now when they have made 5X in profits what they did in '12? Remember, you give up QOL now and you'll NEVER get it back.

the TA is turned down 75/25 and the stock drops 5% (2B) in a day. at the earnings call, analysts ask ra about his relationship and the fact that he said it was "off the table?" they ask if the jd power is no longer important as he apparently misread the pilots. the pilots then decide to help the fas unionize because there is strength in numbers. BIG money will leave the stock because ra decided to "wait until the nmb." a big premium to the stock price will disappear overnight.
in any case, give up qol or scope, you never get it back. didn't they learn about trading pay for scope in 2001 when they authorized thousands of RJs to replace mainline planes? PCL, I'm really shocked you can't remember this. Now on the top end, highest paying planes. Shameful.

 

[jonjuan]

Yes, I've looked at the PS, and it's more than offset by the pay raises by a significant amount. Sorry if math is difficult for you.

I'm not telling you to vote in favor. I'd probably vote against it because of the sick policy and LCA issues, actually. But the compensation package is excellent.

Heck, how about an extra 2% for no reroute guarantees? Why not an additional 1% for being able to fly a during vacation and a "no furlough clause?" 2% for minimum reserve guarantee as only the junior are on reserve? Why not an extra 1% for a 5 year equipment/seat lock? Heck, that's like an additional 6%! Think about Time Value of Money!!!!

 

[canyonblue]

I do have double your paycheck, though. :laugh:

And double his ASS SIZE. :laugh:

 

[SLUF4]

this TA is the biggest POS ever..and I've worked under some bad ones!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

My favorite issue with this thread is all the SWA types talking about us setting the bar! They are burning down the NMB setting the bar for an industry. I mean who can argue with somebody in negotiations since 2012 with no end in sight. Setting the bar up high? Hardly....they don't have much
room to speak anything about our contract.

 

[JAM-BRO]

My favorite issue with this thread is all the SWA types talking about us setting the bar! They are burning down the NMB setting the bar for an industry. I mean who can argue with somebody in negotiations since 2012 with no end in sight. Setting the bar up high? Hardly....they don't have much
room to speak anything about our contract.

At least they aren't settling for a POS TA like our NC has:-(

 

[PCL_128]

Yeah, those pay raises that bring total compensation to its highest level ever are a real bummer.

 

[redflyer65]

My favorite issue with this thread is all the SWA types talking about us setting the bar! They are burning down the NMB setting the bar for an industry. I mean who can argue with somebody in negotiations since 2012 with no end in sight. Setting the bar up high? Hardly....they don't have much
room to speak anything about our contract.

Relax Bill, most on here want you to get a great deal. Hell, I don't care who raises the bar, it could be Allegiant and I'd be happy for them. It helps everyone.

Now, since you decided to throw stone our way on top of your bizarre comment, let me say this....We have held the bar, for what? 10+ years? We still have one of the best contracts in the industry with absolutely no scope relief.

We all know that had nothing to do with DL pilots or even SW pilots, but the bankruptcies of multiple carriers and poor management decisions. It really doesn't matter at this point.

We've had a CEO just stiff arm us for over 2 years but we aren't caving. Jam-Bro actually got that right. I think what you'll see from our contract is 1- Higher hourly rates, 2- More retirement dollars, 3- A nice retro bonus back to the amendable date, etc. It helps if other carriers get good deals as well. Will the rates be as high as what your TA has? Not sure, but it would be nice.

Hope you guys get it worked out.

PCL, High pay rates don't mean squat if they reduce some of the flying available via JV relief, etc. We've seen this movie before. Remember high pay rates for just a few RJ's? How many mainline jobs lost? Thousands. Ask what happened United's LAX-FRA route when the gave JV relief.