New Delta TA 06/2015

[PCL_128]

I haven't seen any evidence that the JV language proposed will result in lost jobs. Just a lot of rhetoric from the APC crowd that isn't smart enough to tie their own shoes. But if you have real data indicating that the JV language would be that devastating, then by all means, present it.

 

[redflyer65]

I'll have to check out what's going on over there. All my DL buddies are a No unless the roadshow changes their mind dramatically. Also have been told of recall efforts mostly because none of this is what the members wanted to be negotiated.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, everyone always claims to be a no vote, and then it passes by 70%. People love to talk tough, but they want their money.

 

[jonjuan]

Yeah, those pay raises that bring total compensation to its highest level ever are a real bummer.

And historical concessions to boot. Pass the TA and we'll order 737s and 190s. Lololol......

 

[instructordude]

There is a lot of gotchas on this TA. The payscales are nice but what happens when the company cant afford them. What then? Another trip thru bankruptcy. I a reluctant yes on this bloated contract.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Instructordude: Get a life. And stop infecting APC. You're not funny. Eveyone knows you're a troll.

 

[GogglesPisano]

deleted

 

[PCL_128]

Isn't everyone on APC a troll? That place is a cesspool.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Isn't everyone on APC a troll? That place is a cesspool.

You're kidding, right? Compared to this place, APC is a MENSA meeting.

 

[PCL_128]

Carl Spackler alone is enough to drive the average APC IQ down into the single digits.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Looks like Instructordude just got himself banned over on APC as we type. Maybe if this place would have gotten it's act together a few years ago it wouldn't be the ghost town it is now.

 

[instructordude]

Looks like Instructordude just got himself banned over on APC as we type. Maybe if this place would have gotten it's act together a few years ago it wouldn't be the ghost town it is now.

Ha ha! Could care less. You know whats funny is you guys are like a bunch of little bitchy wives. Think about what I said over on APC? Absolutely nothing that was bad, just stating I liked the TA. Total censorship. That TA will pass mark my word it will. It is a good one that rewards workers with raises, requires scammers to validate when sick and doesnt waste money paying people to sit on their asses at home. Vote it down and you will be in holding for awhile. But that wont happen itll pass. I will proudly vote yes.

 

[GogglesPisano]

See what I mean?

 

[instructordude]

See what I mean?

Nope.

The sun will rise tommorow just like this TA will pass. Sorry bro.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Relax Bill, most on here want you to get a great deal. Hell, I don't care who raises the bar, it could be Allegiant and I'd be happy for them. It helps everyone.

Now, since you decided to throw stone our way on top of your bizarre comment, let me say this....We have held the bar, for what? 10+ years? We still have one of the best contracts in the industry with absolutely no scope relief.

We all know that had nothing to do with DL pilots or even SW pilots, but the bankruptcies of multiple carriers and poor management decisions. It really doesn't matter at this point.

We've had a CEO just stiff arm us for over 2 years but we aren't caving. Jam-Bro actually got that right. I think what you'll see from our contract is 1- Higher hourly rates, 2- More retirement dollars, 3- A nice retro bonus back to the amendable date, etc. It helps if other carriers get good deals as well. Will the rates be as high as what your TA has? Not sure, but it would be nice.

Hope you guys get it worked out.

PCL, High pay rates don't mean squat if they reduce some of the flying available via JV relief, etc. We've seen this movie before. Remember high pay rates for just a few RJ's? How many mainline jobs lost? Thousands. Ask what happened United's LAX-FRA route when the gave JV relief.

Thanks for the advice. You settle your own problems, we'll take care of ours. I'll save the JV talk for another poster with experience in that sort of arrangment, hell, you don't even cross an ocean and you act like a professor on here.

 

[PCL_128]

Under all likely scenarios, the new scope language will result in increased jobs, not fewer. Red just can't do math.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I'm going to get to a road show and hear the story. A lot of the rumors are DPAhole bravado spooling up the masses. It isn't as bad as I read the TA. Sure, there are concessions because this is a negotiation. Some F/Os will take it in the shorts with the LCA bidding, I can see that. The sick leave isn't as ominous as it was made out to be. It was meant to crack down on the clowns who bang out sick for a 12 day trip, then white slip into another one the next day and they do it all year long...or get a doctors note for every sick event so they can stay home for 240 hours.

All should vote what works for them.

Send it back and we could face RA with a new set of demands. Nothing in the TA is retained, this is not a line item veto trick. He can meet with us one day a month like UPS and slow roll this out and then we pray for the NMB to take us. They are backed up with 30+ airline and railroad disputes so this could go on for a few years. Hell, Southwest has been in negotiations since we were in working on Contract 2012....UPS/FEDex included....the NMB won't be impressed by how profitable my company is so that is no argument at that table. "So you mean to tell us you were offered the highest pay and PWA in the industry (sans Pension-thanks Jerry)and you turned it down because you wanted more?" Good luck with that argument.

This wasn't the best deal but its the deal we have. I'm going to a road show and talk to the reps and get some clarity on this thing but our alternatives are grim considering that no President will allow an airline of this scope to strike. This isn't 1998 anymore.....we don't hold the ultimate self-help leverage. Anybody who thinks we hold the leverage is fooling themselves.

Vote early vote often

 

[PCL_128]

Smart man.

 

[redflyer65]

Under all likely scenarios, the new scope language will result in increased jobs, not fewer. Red just can't do math.

You tell me to research it and then make this statement? Look at the European up-gauge angle PCL. The JV partners can move to larger equipment as needed with no downside for them. Swap a A340 out for a A380? Sure, this TA will allow it. I guess as a former ALPA Exec you don't mind the synthetic outsourcing on the top for a few E190's on the bottom....oh yea, and more 76 seaters!

Why ALPA would be giving any concessions during this unbelievably profit time period is beyond me.

Ask yourself this...Why would RA want to reduce the Profit Sharing if it wasn't a good deal for him? The answer is because it's going to be a GREAT deal for him over the next 2-3 years. Yet another concession.

This goes back to ALPA needing to make the best deal they can first and NOT biting off on something mediocre. When they do this, then Bill is exactly right. They've painted themselves in a box with regards to trying to fix it and looking like fools before the NMB. Better to have worked a few more months to get it right than have to try and 'sell it, or fix it'....which doesn't do the DL guys much good. DALPA should have been the gatekeeper, looks like someone slipped one past the goalie.

 

[relief tube]

what are the details on scope? Please don't trade away planes for a fat paycheck.

It's embarassing DL has full 3 hour RJ flights.

 

[jonjuan]

what are the details on scope? Please don't trade away planes for a fat paycheck.

It's embarassing DL has full 3 hour RJ flights.

eeyuppp-included in these "minor concessions" they gave up RJ limits of 900 miles as well as 25 additional 76ers. "Oh but we'll park 50 fifty seaters" LOL-as though those things weren't going away already. Look for the new 76ers flying between NYC-MSP-ATL-SLC. Zero hub-hub restrictions. PCLumberg is too too blinded (or too dumb, you decide) by the shiny objects management is throwing down to not see the massive concessions written about on the other forum.

 

[jonjuan]

Please don't trade away planes for a fat paycheck.

Fat? it's an 8% pay raise after giving back PS.

 

[PCL_128]

You tell me to research it and then make this statement? Look at the European up-gauge angle PCL. The JV partners can move to larger equipment as needed with no downside for them. Swap a A340 out for a A380? Sure, this TA will allow it. I guess as a former ALPA Exec you don't mind the synthetic outsourcing on the top for a few E190's on the bottom....oh yea, and more 76 seaters!

What you describe is the only scenario in which EASKs is a better metric than block-hours. What you fail to acknowledge is that when the transatlantic market contracts (and it will), DAL pilots are better off using block-hours instead of EASKs. So which model is better is nothing but a gamble. And either way, the difference is miniscule.

You also ignore the problems of tracking and enforceability (much easier with block-hours), and the fact that pilot jobs are directly tied to block-hours, not seat-kilometers.

Whichever way you go, there are upsides and downsides. Overall, though, block-hours makes a lot more sense than EASKs.

Why ALPA would be giving any concessions during this unbelievably profit time period is beyond me.

Again, not a concession. But a negotiation is a process of give and take, and while labor will get more than it gives in good times like now. you still have to address some of management's issues, otherwise the NMB turns against you and you're toast.

Ask yourself this...Why would RA want to reduce the Profit Sharing if it wasn't a good deal for him? The answer is because it's going to be a GREAT deal for him over the next 2-3 years. Yet another concession.

RA wants to swap profit sharing for pay rates because pay rates are predictable and something he can tell the shareholders with certainty. Businesses, especially publicly traded ones, like predictable costs. But it's also better for pilots, because profit sharing disappears immediately in bad times, while pay rates have to be negotiated. Why any pilot would prefer variable compensation over hard compensation is absolutely beyond me.

This goes back to ALPA needing to make the best deal they can first and NOT biting off on something mediocre. When they do this, then Bill is exactly right.

I would say that the highest total compensation package in the history of the profession is far from "mediocre."

That said, someone emailed me a copy of the language in tracked changes, and I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, so maybe my opinion will change after I have a chance to look. But since I'm a little busy on weekdays nowadays, it will take a while.

 

[General Lee]

I'm going to get to a road show and hear the story. A lot of the rumors are DPAhole bravado spooling up the masses. It isn't as bad as I read the TA. Sure, there are concessions because this is a negotiation. Some F/Os will take it in the shorts with the LCA bidding, I can see that. The sick leave isn't as ominous as it was made out to be. It was meant to crack down on the clowns who bang out sick for a 12 day trip, then white slip into another one the next day and they do it all year long...or get a doctors note for every sick event so they can stay home for 240 hours.

All should vote what works for them.

Send it back and we could face RA with a new set of demands. Nothing in the TA is retained, this is not a line item veto trick. He can meet with us one day a month like UPS and slow roll this out and then we pray for the NMB to take us. They are backed up with 30+ airline and railroad disputes so this could go on for a few years. Hell, Southwest has been in negotiations since we were in working on Contract 2012....UPS/FEDex included....the NMB won't be impressed by how profitable my company is so that is no argument at that table. "So you mean to tell us you were offered the highest pay and PWA in the industry (sans Pension-thanks Jerry)and you turned it down because you wanted more?" Good luck with that argument.

This wasn't the best deal but its the deal we have. I'm going to a road show and talk to the reps and get some clarity on this thing but our alternatives are grim considering that no President will allow an airline of this scope to strike. This isn't 1998 anymore.....we don't hold the ultimate self-help leverage. Anybody who thinks we hold the leverage is fooling themselves.

Vote early vote often

Ohhhhhh Bill, the alternatives are Grimm? Living with a good contract now and having larger profit sharing checks? Get a grip man! Did you go to the ATL roadshow today? Apparent it was very LOUD. Did you learn anything? Looks like there are a lot of upset people, and social media is helping to get people to look at the Tentative agreement. Are you a P2P volunteer btw? You sound like it. And I bet you buy a used car at the dealership's first offer, primarily because the other options are just horrible. You don't just walk away, you accept a deal.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Fat? it's an 8% pay raise after giving back PS.

And then add hits to sick leave, the Joint Ventures, and QOL issues like Line Check Airman trips being taken out of the trip pool before most could bid them.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

Ohhhhhh Bill, the alternatives are Grimm? Living with a good contract now and having larger profit sharing checks? Get a grip man! Did you go to the ATL roadshow today? Apparent it was very LOUD. Did you learn anything? Looks like there are a lot of upset people, and social media is helping to get people to look at the Tentative agreement. Are you a P2P volunteer btw? You sound like it. And I bet you buy a used car at the dealership's first offer, primarily because the other options are just horrible. You don't just walk away, you accept a deal.



Bye Bye---General Lee

OMG. I agree with the General.


Regardless of what PCL tries to spin, here's what it boils down too...

Where are the real gains?

Pay rates? They look good initially but of course a good percentage (6%) are funded with PS givebacks. Read what the General posted above. Why worry about Profit Sharing money when it's good now?

The rest is concessionary. Well there is a 1% increase in B-fund, and that attractive nickel added to Per Diem. That's pathetic.

ALPA should be ashamed. This is a turd and Donatelli looks like an idiot after the verbose video he released.

I'll ask again........WHERE ARE THE GAINS?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Ohhhhhh Bill, the alternatives are Grimm? Living with a good contract now and having larger profit sharing checks? Get a grip man! Did you go to the ATL roadshow today? Apparent it was very LOUD. Did you learn anything? Looks like there are a lot of upset people, and social media is helping to get people to look at the Tentative agreement. Are you a P2P volunteer btw? You sound like it. And I bet you buy a used car at the dealership's first offer, primarily because the other options are just horrible. You don't just walk away, you accept a deal.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Nope....just a pilot who asked his rep some questions and is reading the TA and went to the road show. Even reasoning with you is against my moral judgement GL because your advice on anything on FI is usually flawed and misguided. BTW, the internet is always a grrrrrreat and reliable source for information. I was there in ATL and it wasn't like what you describe.

Funny you ask, Flew with a P2P guy last week and he told me good and bad about this thing. Very candid about the downside and the F/O bidding stuff. Some good info from those guys.

As far as your car dealer comment. A car salesman can smell a guy like you who buys on emotion rather than rational thinking. You make him happy.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

OMG. I agree with the General.


Regardless of what PCL tries to spin, here's what it boils down too...

Where are the real gains?

Pay rates? They look good initially but of course a good percentage (6%) are funded with PS givebacks. Read what the General posted above. Why worry about Profit Sharing money when it's good now?

The rest is concessionary. Well there is a 1% increase in B-fund, and that attractive nickel added to Per Diem. That's pathetic.

ALPA should be ashamed. This is a turd and Donatelli looks like an idiot after the verbose video he released.

I'll ask again........WHERE ARE THE GAINS?

Red, how long have you been negotiating? If you really were the heroes you think you are, we could pattern off of your time in neutral for thepast 3+ years. You get get your house straight first before criticizing mine.

 

[redflyer65]

Red, how long have you been negotiating? If you really were the heroes you think you are, we could pattern off of your time in neutral for thepast 3+ years. You get get your house straight first before criticizing mine.

Seriously Bill?

Thanks for making my point. Yes, we could have been done two years ago.....if we had bought off on the company turd they floated. Sound familiar?

You never answered. Where are the gains?

 

[PCL_128]

Red, how long have you been negotiating? If you really were the heroes you think you are, we could pattern off of your time in neutral for thepast 3+ years. You get get your house straight first before criticizing mine.

Red has never negotiated anything. He's your typical bomb thrower who stands on the sidelines and pretends that he's an expert without ever having to put up or shut up.

Just give it a few years. In 3-5 years, his beloved SWAPA will have a TA with pay rates lower than DAL, code share giveaways, and still just a 401k match.