New Delta TA 06/2015

[redflyer65]

Red has never negotiated anything. He's your typical bomb thrower who stands on the sidelines and pretends that he's an expert without ever having to put up or shut up.

Just give it a few years. In 3-5 years, his beloved SWAPA will have a TA with pay rates lower than DAL, code share giveaways, and still just a 401k match.

You call this TA 'negotiating'? You must really bend over at the car dealership. Let's try this again...


Hey fatboy, where are the gains?

No bomb throwing just give me the facts.

 

[johnsonrod]

Red, how long have you been negotiating? If you really were the heroes you think you are, we could pattern off of your time in neutral for thepast 3+ years. You get get your house straight first before criticizing mine.

Living with the current contract including the big profit sharing checks does not sound bad at all. Most of my Delta buddies now anxiously look forward to every quarterly result... No wonder Management is so desperate to change the formula.

If the Wall Street analysts are so elated with the TA you know the pilots are giving away too much...

 

[PCL_128]

25% pay raises over the term of the agreement (highest compensation ever in the history of the profession)

Reduced total RJs

Increase to the DC plan (something you don't even have)

Per diem increase

Vacation pay increase

Recurrent pay increase

New 100-seat airplane coming, and with great pay rates

Depending on the market, JV may or may not be an improvement

A few small scheduling improvements

Etc.

Now, to be fair, there are legit negatives, too. The change to LCA trips is bad. Real bad. The sick policy sucks. Not as bad as the APC morons are pretending, but still not good. And JV could be a slight negative if gauge is increasing without increasing frequency. But do these things make it a concessionary TA overall? Of course not. That's absurd.

 

[redflyer65]

The main points....


1% increase in b-Fund, and

an added nickel of per diem.

Like you said, real losses in LCA and an arcane sick leave policy. I put the JV in the loss category too, but the jury may be out on that one. Could be a push. I don't see it being gain.

Not anywhere close to what MD said he demanded. He looks foolish.

 

[PCL_128]

You gloss over the highest compensation any pilots have ever received. No need to be so disingenuous. Just admit that you hate ALPA and will criticize anything that ALPA ever does.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

SWAPA standing in the same spot eh Red? Sounds like that is more foolish than negotiating to an agreement.

 

[redflyer65]

You gloss over the highest compensation any pilots have ever received. No need to be so disingenuous. Just admit that you hate ALPA and will criticize anything that ALPA ever does.

Honestly PCL, I don't care for ALPA. But that has nothing to due with my post.

I honestly think DL pilots deserve more from a company making so much money. The same could be said about our negotiations. I don't want a turd dropped on us by the NC. If that happened, I would be just as vocal.

Has nothing to do with SW vs DL, or SWAPA vs ALPA. I wish DALPA would have done a better job for their members.....that's all.

 

[PCL_128]

I think they "deserve" more, too. But I'm sorry, you don't get want you deserve. I hope you can come terms with that before SWAPA finally reaches a TA, otherwise you're in for a hell of a disappointment.

 

[General Lee]

Nope....just a pilot who asked his rep some questions and is reading the TA and went to the road show. Even reasoning with you is against my moral judgement GL because your advice on anything on FI is usually flawed and misguided. BTW, the internet is always a grrrrrreat and reliable source for information. I was there in ATL and it wasn't like what you describe.

Funny you ask, Flew with a P2P guy last week and he told me good and bad about this thing. Very candid about the downside and the F/O bidding stuff. Some good info from those guys.

As far as your car dealer comment. A car salesman can smell a guy like you who buys on emotion rather than rational thinking. You make him happy.

Hahahaha! The whole thing is bad. And you are defending it? Sheesh, you seriously are now lower than me on the credibility meter, even though I always give my honest opinion, even if it is unpopular. Thanks Bill, you are now the least credible person on this board, you are willing to take a terrible contract. Did you enjoy Donotelli's yelling today? You probably did. I already saw the video, and it was an outrage. And I'm hearing rumors of P2P volunteers quiting. Maybe the one you flew with was one of them?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I think they "deserve" more, too. But I'm sorry, you don't get want you deserve. I hope you can come terms with that before SWAPA finally reaches a TA, otherwise you're in for a hell of a disappointment.

Typical ALPA fear mongering. I'd rather have the current contract with better work rules and large profit sharing checks than a bad contract. You are now just above Lumberg on the credibility meter. Are you still trying to get to ALPA National somehow? It seems like it.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

General, we've seen this game before from you, several times. You talk tough for weeks, then vote in favor and defend it vociferously. But it's okay, I still think you're entertaining.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

I'm not sure what I "deserve", but I know what I can live, what I cannot, and what I'd rather not live with. Money comes and goes, I can pay my bills just fine - if I play my cards right I'll be riding this horse for a long long time. There's a lot more on the table here than just cashish.

IMO, the Company has bared their soul; they need relief in the training pipeline, they fumbled sick policy in 2012, and the pilot group is the stalking horse for company-wide profit sharing modifications. There's a deal to be had, but for me it's not this one.

 

[General Lee]

General, we've seen this game before from you, several times. You talk tough for weeks, then vote in favor and defend it vociferously. But it's okay, I still think you're entertaining.

Everyone has their limits. You and your ALPA cohorts are too confident, and the crowd in usually "ace in the hole" ATL showed they weren't too happy today. That's in a base that usually always votes yes for a TA. This will be interesting, and the video made me laugh. You should watch it. Just wait until NYC and DTW roadshows. That has to be taped! Talk about entertainment.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

Yeah, Detroit will be...interesting. I'm betting it passes. If not, you'll probably be without a new TA for several years. Your choice.

 

[General Lee]

I'm not sure what I "deserve", but I know what I can live, what I cannot, and what I'd rather not live with. Money comes and goes, I can pay my bills just fine - if I play my cards right I'll be riding this horse for a long long time. There's a lot more on the table here than just cashish.

IMO, the Company has bared their soul; they need relief in the training pipeline, they fumbled sick policy in 2012, and the pilot group is the stalking horse for company-wide profit sharing modifications. There's a deal to be had, but for me it's not this one.

Well stated. (Bill just shed a tear)



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Yeah, Detroit will be...interesting. I'm betting it passes. If not, you'll probably be without a new TA for several years. Your choice.

With big profit sharing checks and great work rules? Ok, that's good.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

25% pay raises over the term of the agreement (highest compensation ever in the history of the profession)

Reduced total RJs

Increase to the DC plan (something you don't even have)

Per diem increase

Vacation pay increase

Recurrent pay increase

New 100-seat airplane coming, and with great pay rates

Depending on the market, JV may or may not be an improvement

A few small scheduling improvements

Etc.

Now, to be fair, there are legit negatives, too. The change to LCA trips is bad. Real bad. The sick policy sucks. Not as bad as the APC morons are pretending, but still not good. And JV could be a slight negative if gauge is increasing without increasing frequency. But do these things make it a concessionary TA overall? Of course not. That's absurd.

Your pay rate increases are way off. With the Profit Sharing give back included, the raises are 8%, .25%, 1%, and 1%. Then throw in the five cent per diem increase, plus the big changes in sick leave and joint venture changes, and it's not good at all. You are giving ALPA spin, and it's wrong. Shame on you and Bill.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

No, you are carrying DPA water and spreading their fuzzy math bullsh!t. You should know better.

 

[General Lee]

No, you are carrying DPA water and spreading their fuzzy math bullsh!t. You should know better.

You can't defend the TA, it speaks for itself. Good try though. Is ALPA paying you while you're unemployed? Or, do you now work for National? Ah, it makes sense. Do you work for the Moak Group? You probably aspire to.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

DPA being brought up by any ALPA guy is a straw man. They need to be outraged at someone, and the DPA boogeyman is pretty convenient. Not buying any of that.

 

[PCL_128]

You can't defend the TA, it speaks for itself. Good try though. Is ALPA paying you while you're unemployed? Or, do you now work for National? Ah, it makes sense. Do you work for the Moak Group? You probably aspire to.







Bye Bye---General Lee

Ha! Moak and I don't get along. I don't mind Canoll as much, but we certainly don't see eye to eye enough for me to have any connection to National these days. My ALPA days are long over.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

DPA!? Please, spare me the melodrama. DALPA leadership may be in need of full tear down and rebuild as it were, but I'm not interested in the brand of nuts DPA is selling. In fact, I'd even go so far as saying I've generally been an ALPA supporter.

The day before the TA details were released I was commuting home on the JS (DAL) from a trip. Naturally, the topic of the TA cropped up, I literally said, "given it's done so early I'm really optimistic." That was the consensus of all three of us. The next day when I opened my email and read the details my knee jerk reaction was, "8/6/3/3 that's alright", then as I scrolled down further and read it switched to, "Oh crap, they blew it."

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Its funny how we were so angry under contract 2012 that 40 percent said no, me included. Now, everybody is just thrilled to work more years under a contract they didn't like. What changed?

 

[RJLoser]

Its funny how we were so angry under contract 2012 that 40 percent said no, me included. Now, everybody is just thrilled to work more years under a contract they didn't like. What changed?

The cheese was moved.

 

[johnsonrod]

Yeah, Detroit will be...interesting. I'm betting it passes. If not, you'll probably be without a new TA for several years. Your choice.

Awesome profit sharing for several years? I'll take it!

 

[PCL_128]

Unless profits drop. Then you're just left with lower pay rates. But hey, I like a casino as much as the next guy, so carry on!

 

[Flopgut]

The profit sharing thing is like catching a falling knife (no profit=no profit sharing) However, RA wants rid of it now for a reason. The sun is shining and DAL is making hay!! So it's not like you have to hurry up and get rid of PS

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

We are like crack hos for profit sharing. One day, we won't be as profitable. My rep told me something that makes sense (so that means GL doesn't get it). The profit sharing is converted into an hourly rate so if the turn comes, we still get paid...WELL.

Like the line in Goodfellas....when management comes looking for help in the downturn.
Business bad? F U Pay Me
Had a fire? F U Pay me

Not the deal I was thinking we would get, but after seeing the road show I think its a yes for me.

 

[jonjuan]

You gloss over the highest compensation any pilots have ever received. No need to be so disingenuous. Just admit that you hate ALPA and will criticize anything that ALPA ever does.

Ever? Take 2004 and add inflation. Now tell us the answer.

 

[jonjuan]

With big profit sharing checks and great work rules? Ok, that's good.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Eyuuuup-soon to be 600-800 retirements/year. Sounds like someone will need, oh, just a little help with training thousands of pilots. Good luck with that by trying to ignore the pilots.