New ASA/XJT JCBA rumor....

[Speedtape]

The version that asa looked at several years ago was a different version than is available now. Further more, they spent several hours with the vendor but did not participate in any sort of testing.

Both versions globalize. What's changed? From one of the Association participants, the Company did not want to consider the vendor because...............It was a one man show, not a viable business, no customers, no track record in a live environment, and a risk that they were not willing to take with 1600 pilots, and 1000 F/A's. What's changed except now there are 4200 pilots and 2500 F/A's.



They did not participate in any testing this time either. viewing a presentation and testing your own pairings it completely different.

Hmm, according to sources they were doing runs since last Fall, with ASA pairings in one of your crew bases. Have you talked to them? Yes, you have and you know what they did. Your research is like looking at the problem through a straw. There is not a fully functional operating system with 400 pilots bidding in a live environment to provide an environment that can provide reliable sampling. What pilot groups that use this system have you been able to speak with. Talk with pilots at our mainline partner and hear what they have to say when they looked at this system. Talk to Comair pilots who used an earlier version of SmartPref, SLICK, and see what they have to say. The common theme is that the awarding is unpredictable, NON-transparent, and awards cannot be explained because of the algorithm. In fact, one source said that a different result can exist for different runs with no changes to the settings. Really????

In the past several years no one has gone to PBS with the exception of you. Of which your system was selected after four vendors visited ATL in one day and the decision was made at the end of the day. So you tell me who has done their "research" when you select a vendor in one day?

This is another misrepresentation of the truth. The original committee started the "official" search in mid 2008 and it lasted several months. The meeting you mentioned occurred after several months of research, in addition to multiple meetings with pilots from other airlines that used different systems (no better source). In addition, there was a presentation of the Flightline system at a BOD in Las Vegas for the MEC. One of the main issues that they discovered from other pilot groups was the egregious awarding that happens in a Globalized system. The unique difference in the Flight Line system is that it does not globalize and to the greatest extent possible, as compared to every other system, honors seniority. Does SmartPref globalize, and what are your thoughts on that?

They were close with one company that subsequently went into bankruptcy. They were close with another that didn't select any PBS software and chose to stay with line bidding.

That's only 2 and there were other groups that did not select SmartPref either. No customers over 6 years is VERY concerning and what did you disover that they didn't?

Hey, I understand the fear of a new company and new system.
First, there really is NOT a Company--except on paper! Who wants to be a guinea pig for a new system? I really don't think the Company has changed their position on this "Company" with one employee--maybe?

Which is why we recommended that it not be implemented until after a year or two of use in our phase II.

I have multiple concerns with the statement above. First, it sounds as though even you have a lack of confidence in the system. Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? Secondly, you are going to experiment with your bottom 40% pilots who are all going to be globalized? Why not roll it out to all pilots if it works? It appears that this is a delay tactic so you can maintain line bidding. I am pretty sure that, if you are allowed to execute that plan, that with that system, you will create enough misery with the leftover pairings, that it will fail. Then where are you?

Alas, we're at where we're at. So we can bicker all day long or you can take some time to see the system we're proposing and help us make it the best possible.

For the record, we have the best system! Along with that system we have good rules. In addition to the satisfaction expressed by our pilots through multiple means, other airline pilot groups are impressed with the system and rules we were able to negotiate. It works and does not need major changes. Most importantly, it does not use globalizing logic like SmartPref and the other system like the Continental pilots use. Those systems have pot luck awarding that no one can explain, not even the Professor!

 

[Speedtape]

Your airline was going to be decimated by being forced to be the 2nd lowest DCI carrier. ASA needed a dance partner to merge with in order to create synergy savings. The last thing Inc was going to do was to merge Skywest with ASA. That's where XJT comes into the picture. XJT was getting flying from UAX and was negotiating a CPA with USAir for flying out of phx.
Really? We are not the 2nd lowest cost DCI carrier. I got news for you Brother, that flying that you think you are going to get from UAX will probably be going to Skywest. They will fly the big RJs and you will still be flying the little ones. That CPA in PHX, it going to Skywest.


When do the leases/CPA expire on the 200s? Didn't you just lose 6 recently that had expired? Maybe he is talking about that and not the DAL TA.
When do the leases expired on the 145's? You might want to check, because it's soon!



It's not the XJT MEC who was dragging their feet when management said they wanted a TA in 90 days. It's not the XJT MEC who has not moved from their original bidding system position. It's not
the XJT MEC who is hard headed. Your guys won't even give smartpref an honest look!
Well, how would you know that? Have you moved from your original bidding system position? We already have PBS, haven't you heard? Can an MEC be hard headed? Our folks have looked at SmartPref, a Globalizing system, very similar to the Globalizing system that Continental has. We decided a long time ago we did not want Globalizing or a system like Continental's. Is that what you want?

Your MEC is derelict.

Our MEC is stable and provides good representation for our pilots.

We have not changed MEC Chairmen 4 times since the announcement of the merger, multiple changes in voting members, and almost a complete turnover in the JNC. But who's counting? And what happened to you?

Derelict? Really? Maybe, you should google the word! And please, make intellectual arguments based on facts, and not juvenile name calling! It's so unbecoming of you!

 

[Fishpaw]

Our MEC is stable and provides good representation for our pilots.

We have not changed MEC Chairmen 4 times since the announcement of the merger, multiple changes in voting members, and almost a complete turnover in the JNC. But who's counting? And what happened to you?

Derelict? Really? Maybe, you should google the word! And please, make intellectual arguments based on facts, and not juvenile name calling! It's so unbecoming of you!

Speedtape, who are you and what is your seniority at ASA? Your arguements lack merit with the average line pilot at XJT if you can't be open about your position/seniority.

 

[enuffalready]

Speedtape, who are you and what is your seniority at ASA? Your arguements lack merit with the average line pilot at XJT if you can't be open about your position/seniority.

WTF does it matter if he is number 1 or 1600. your arguments lack merit with the educated population because you cannot spell argument

 

[Nevets]

Why would they send out a damm communication to us that says. 'hey everyone! Guess what we did today. We tested this thing called smartpref and we really dont like it or think its any good for you guys. We started at 9 am, and finished at 3. We ran lots of solutions and it was real neato, but we're not sure it will work for 4,000 pilots or that the real time bid thingy will be of any benefit"!

Really? You think they put something out to us for everything they do? So, that is why we can't show you some results they communicated to us! Is that really how you think it works? If you want, PM me and I'll get you a number for our MEC chair, Scheduling chair and CNC chair and you can ask them all about it.

Yes, our MEC did just that. At their own expense seeing that most of the ERJ pilots are against any PBS. That is how it works. I know from experience. Why havent they communicated ANYTHING? Trust me, what people say and what they put in writing to their name can be vastly different. Why won't your MEC put in writing what they are apparently telling the few pilots that call them? Why won't you guys even ask that question?

 

[Nevets]

Our MEC is stable and provides good representation for our pilots.

We have not changed MEC Chairmen 4 times since the announcement of the merger, multiple changes in voting members, and almost a complete turnover in the JNC. But who's counting? And what happened to you?

Derelict? Really? Maybe, you should google the word! And please, make intellectual arguments based on facts, and not juvenile name calling! It's so unbecoming of you!

You still have not proved me wrong. Show me the communications from your MEC that say otherwise. Maybe the reason you can't is because I'm right. Your MEC derelict!

 

[Nevets]

I don't know for sure, but if I seem to recall the bulk ASA's flying was locked up long term with the sale of ASA to SKYW. I think the 6 that left were on an additional, shorter term contract.

In any case, the "you were heading for bankruptcy" vs "you were about to be decimated by DL" debate is getting very old. There is way too much pride on both sides.

How many more are on short term contracts? My understanding is that they were on short term contract because the original head lease on those aircraft expired and management was able to keep them flying on short term contracts. So the question is, what are the expiration dates on the other head leases?

 

[Fishpaw]

WTF does it matter if he is number 1 or 1600. your arguments lack merit with the educated population because you cannot spell argument

Good catch on my spelling error. However, I'm not trying to make any arguments. I'm only trying to figure out why one PBS system is better than another. If we're all honest about why we are so passionate about this issue it's because we are afraid of losing what we have. That's why many of these posts are full of emotion and not based on facts and fact finding. If we knew Speedtape's seniority it may give us more insight into why he/she is so passionate about your current PBS. I can be honest about the fact that as a junior line holder at Xjt I believe I will lose qol by going with any PBS but our senior pilots will gain qol.

 

[enuffalready]

Good catch on my spelling error. However, I'm not trying to make any arguments. I'm only trying to figure out why one PBS system is better than another. If we're all honest about why we are so passionate about this issue it's because we are afraid of losing what we have. That's why many of these posts are full of emotion and not based on facts and fact finding. If we knew Speedtape's seniority it may give us more insight into why he/she is so passionate about your current PBS. I can be honest about the fact that as a junior line holder at Xjt I believe I will lose qol by going with any PBS but our senior pilots will gain qol.

it comes down to experience... PBS experience.. life experience and common sense. there is absolutely no way I am taking something as important as quality of life/schedule and placing it in the hands of a system that has never been truly tested, has no customers and has a HUGE unknown. Why in all creation would anyone in their right mind even consider this is mind boggling. We know the details of Flica. we have experience with Flica, we like flica. Other airlines want our system, other airlines meet with us to get ideas. if you want to tweak it, fine, but this whole non sense if trying an entirely new UNTESTED system is just nutz. If you guys want to be the guinea pigs, knock yourselves out.

 

[Fishpaw]

it comes down to experience... PBS experience.. life experience and common sense. there is absolutely no way I am taking something as important as quality of life/schedule and placing it in the hands of a system that has never been truly tested, has no customers and has a HUGE unknown. Why in all creation would anyone in their right mind even consider this is mind boggling. We know the details of Flica. we have experience with Flica, we like flica. Other airlines want our system, other airlines meet with us to get ideas. if you want to tweak it, fine, but this whole non sense if trying an entirely new UNTESTED system is just nutz. If you guys want to be the guinea pigs, knock yourselves out.

Thank you for your response. Maybe it would be helpful to know the seniority of all those who post a pro/con about PBS. I haven't spoken with anyone junior at ASA who has tried to promote your PBS yet. So enuff and speed, what % are you bidding at ASA?

 

[Sherpa]

Can we run a couple solutions in tandem, see the quality of life awarded over a good sample of previous bids, settle on the best, improve it and start arguing over something like seniority?

 

[enuffalready]

Can we run a couple solutions in tandem, see the quality of life awarded over a good sample of previous bids, settle on the best, improve it and start arguing over something like seniority?

no because "a couple" solutions never works...

you have a PBS that 99% of ASA pilots like. Line bidding is dead. why not Tweak the PBS system you have vs open pandoras box.

Now, if the new system actually had real world experience then you could say run in tandem. But it it doesn't... and there is a reason.... because it is a TERRIBLE system

 

[FightingIrish]

Hey, I understand the fear of a new company and new system. Which is why we recommended that it not be implemented until after a year or two of use in our phase II. Alas, we're at where we're at. So we can bicker all day long or you can take some time to see the system we're proposing and help us make it the best possible.

mcpickle, what is it that smartpref does better than flightline? Specifically, why isn't flightline acceptable to the XJT side.

 

[JustaNumber]

Thank you for your response. Maybe it would be helpful to know the seniority of all those who post a pro/con about PBS. I haven't spoken with anyone junior at ASA who has tried to promote your PBS yet. So enuff and speed, what % are you bidding at ASA?

I've been on reserve at ASA for forever, so I have great experience with juniority. Without much of a personal dog in the fight (yet), and just reading the arguments on both sides here, I have to agree with the rest of the ASA guys, that the current system seems fairly stable, and experimenting with an unused, unwanted, untested, somewhat unexplained, practically unsupported product would be extremely risky and foolish. It appears to me that the XJT guys mainly are looking for any way to drag their feet, in order to keep their current line-bidding for as long as possible. That seems pretty short-sighted to me.

 

[JustaNumber]

Hey, I understand the fear of a new company and new system. Which is why we recommended that it not be implemented until after a year or two of use in our phase II.

I rest my case--this is all about delay, nothing more. Seriously, a year or two of dual bidding?!?

Not only would that be a huge PITA, our (much shorter) dual bidding period proved mostly useless, not to mention that the whole point of transitioning from line-bidding to PBS is to save the company some money. And whether we like it or not, our company's costs ARE important to our future survival.