New ASA/XJT JCBA rumor....

[goahead]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^3rd^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[mckpickle]

Well, I guess you can make all the conspiracy theories you want. The proof is in the pudding. Pilot satisfaction with a known product and 17 months of bidding speaks for itself.

On the other hand, since you brought it up, how does one man's word about a system that has no customers in over 6 years of existence carry enough weight to jeopardize the QOL of potentially 4300 pilots and 2300 flight attendants. His research and the the results is on a system that does is not currently run in real operation. He has had problems with it even in a limited test environment. What does he know that every other airline that has looked at this system did not know? What is his motive and what is he protecting?

There have been many pilots involved with the research on our side--not one or two. They have all come to the same conclusion.

There is no tangible Company for this product. It has no other products and it has no current ability to support the product. If any, it has only one employee--the salesman. It has no corporate office that can be associated with the Company. The owner appears to be in retirement and lives in Europe.

You say you have reports and research? Where are the other airlines customers that have much more expertise in research than any pilot? What makes you so right and everyone else wrong? You are endorsing this product that may not work and if so may be no better than what they have at Continental. Are you ready to spend your career in exile when this FLOPS?

Mr. MCKPICKLE, at least a snake oil salesman had a covered wagon with his Brand on the side and a few horses. Unfortunately, they moved around too and had no accountability. Their scheme was not based on building repeat customers. Sell the product, and move on! When they covered the market, they didn't make repeat calls. They created a new product so they could start over.

We all want a proven product, with a proven Company, with proven support, with solid financial roots and that will be around! Software companies come and go every day. Yes, we want a Company that is established and will be around, because most of us will be around and we will have to live with a bidding system for years to come. So, we want a known quantity and something that is proven and predictable. Quite frankly, we don't want to go through the PBS HELL that Comair and Continental goes through. We don't want to have to negotiate for a new system every new contract because it does not work.

What is it that you know that many other Companies didn't that examined this product over the last 6 years? We want a Honda that is proven, not a Yugo with a 25 year warranty because it doesn't work--and probably want last 6 months, much less be around for years to come.

Nevermind. You won't listen to anything I have to say anyway so I'm not even going to bother. Hopefully you'll be open minded enough to actually view the product someday. Just keep in mind that 2/3 of this company will not be using your system. So lets just move on, shall we?

 

[mkingmei]

How about the purchasing company(ASA) tells the aquired company(legacy xjet) to stuff it and take what you get.
I'm tired of all the BS...your lucky to be here. Be reasonable and lets get this s#$t taken care of.

 

[mckpickle]

How about the purchasing company(ASA) tells the aquired company(legacy xjet) to stuff it and take what you get.
I'm tired of all the BS...your lucky to be here. Be reasonable and lets get this s#$t taken care of.

Here we go again. A "purchasing" company usually has things like assets and cash. Kinda hard to do when you haven't made any money in how long? Maybe you "purchased" us because you were headed downriver to a water fall and threw out your anchor and snagged onto us to slow your painful and inevitable demise. Quiz time....which group is slatted to lose 100 50 seat a/c in 2 years? Oh ya....the "purchasing" company.

 

[mkingmei]

If one of us were heading for the bottom of the lake, it wasn't ASA....your welcome for being pulled up into a company with a future, regardless of DALs TA(of which no one on this board really knows anything about, including myself).
We would probably have a contract if the XJET guys weren't so damn hard headed.
Hell, ASA should have been stapled to DAL long ago so we wouldn't have to deal with this garbage now.

 

[centralpilot]

Quiz time....which group is slatted to lose 100 50 seat a/c in 2 years? Oh ya....the "purchasing" company.

I know he egged you on, but this is complete speculation at the moment. Nothing is slated to happen yet.

 

[Nevets]

How about the purchasing company(ASA) tells the aquired company(legacy xjet) to stuff it and take what you get.
I'm tired of all the BS...your lucky to be here. Be reasonable and lets get this s#$t taken care of.

Your airline was going to be decimated by being forced to be the 2nd lowest DCI carrier. ASA needed a dance partner to merge with in order to create synergy savings. The last thing Inc was going to do was to merge Skywest with ASA. That's where XJT comes into the picture. XJT was getting flying from UAX and was negotiating a CPA with USAir for flying out of phx.

I know he egged you on, but this is complete speculation at the moment. Nothing is slated to happen yet.

When do the leases/CPA expire on the 200s? Didn't you just lose 6 recently that had expired? Maybe he is talking about that and not the DAL TA.

If one of us were heading for the bottom of the lake, it wasn't ASA....your welcome for being pulled up into a company with a future, regardless of DALs TA(of which no one on this board really knows anything about, including myself).
We would probably have a contract if the XJET guys weren't so damn hard headed.
Hell, ASA should have been stapled to DAL long ago so we wouldn't have to deal with this garbage now.

It's not the XJT MEC who was dragging their feet when management said they wanted a TA in 90 days. It's not the XJT MEC who has not moved from their original bidding system position. It's not
the XJT MEC who is hard headed. Your guys won't even give smartpref an honest look!

Your MEC is derelict.

 

[centralpilot]

When do the leases/CPA expire on the 200s? Didn't you just lose 6 recently that had expired? Maybe he is talking about that and not the DAL TA..

I don't know for sure, but if I seem to recall the bulk ASA's flying was locked up long term with the sale of ASA to SKYW. I think the 6 that left were on an additional, shorter term contract.

In any case, the "you were heading for bankruptcy" vs "you were about to be decimated by DL" debate is getting very old. There is way too much pride on both sides.

 

[Speedtape]

Nevermind. You won't listen to anything I have to say anyway so I'm not even going to bother. Hopefully you'll be open minded enough to actually view the product someday. Just keep in mind that 2/3 of this company will not be using your system. So lets just move on, shall we?

So, they will be using a system that has no other customers, that can not be guaranteed to work, that globalizes, and has no rules, and has no support?

You are assuming that those 2/3's are going to buy your snake oil! I'm not sure that that will be the case.

I will defend a system that works, that has other customers, with a company that has the ability to support the product, with a Company that is established and financially sound, has a proven product that has provided pilot satisfaction for over a year, and has more than ONE employee!

You can move on, if you like, because you are not needed to achieve the goal of selecting an operating system that provides results! If you can't address my concerns and arguments, you will never be able to address them in the crew lounges! You are hawking a bidding system that utilizes globalizing logic, similar to that at Continental!

Answer the question MCKPICKLE: What have you discovered that no other Company did in reviewing this product over the last 6 years?

We don't want a Yugo!

 

[Speedtape]

Your airline was going to be decimated by being forced to be the 2nd lowest DCI carrier. ASA needed a dance partner to merge with in order to create synergy savings. The last thing Inc was going to do was to merge Skywest with ASA. That's where XJT comes into the picture. XJT was getting flying from UAX and was negotiating a CPA with USAir for flying out of phx.


When do the leases/CPA expire on the 200s? Didn't you just lose 6 recently that had expired? Maybe he is talking about that and not the DAL TA.



It's not the XJT MEC who was dragging their feet when management said they wanted a TA in 90 days. It's not the XJT MEC who has not moved from their original bidding system position. It's not
the XJT MEC who is hard headed. Your guys won't even give smartpref an honest look!

Your MEC is derelict.

You are spewing untruths! Stop it! Just because you can state it on this forum, does not make it true!

 

[enuffalready]

It's not the XJT MEC who was dragging their feet when management said they wanted a TA in 90 days. It's not the XJT MEC who has not moved from their original bidding system position. It's not
the XJT MEC who is hard headed. Your guys won't even give smartpref an honest look!

Your MEC is derelict.

this post is just complete nonsense... credibility = fail

 

[mckpickle]

So, they will be using a system that has no other customers, that can not be guaranteed to work, that globalizes, and has no rules, and has no support?

You are assuming that those 2/3's are going to buy your snake oil! I'm not sure that that will be the case.

I will defend a system that works, that has other customers, with a company that has the ability to support the product, with a Company that is established and financially sound, has a proven product that has provided pilot satisfaction for over a year, and has more than ONE employee!

You can move on, if you like, because you are not needed to achieve the goal of selecting an operating system that provides results! If you can't address my concerns and arguments, you will never be able to address them in the crew lounges! You are hawking a bidding system that utilizes globalizing logic, similar to that at Continental!

Answer the question MCKPICKLE: What have you discovered that no other Company did in reviewing this product over the last 6 years?

We don't want a Yugo!

The version that asa looked at several years ago was a different version than is available now. Further more, they spent several hours with the vendor but did not participate in any sort of testing. They did not participate in any testing this time either. viewing a presentation and testing your own pairings it completely different. In the past several years no one has gone to PBS with the exception of you. Of which your system was selected after four vendors visited ATL in one day and the decision was made at the end of the day. So you tell me who has done their "research" when you select a vendor in one day?

They were close with one company that subsequently went into bankruptcy. They were close with another that didn't select any PBS software and chose to stay with line bidding.
Hey, I understand the fear of a new company and new system. Which is why we recommended that it not be implemented until after a year or two of use in our phase II. Alas, we're at where we're at. So we can bicker all day long or you can take some time to see the system we're proposing and help us make it the best possible.

 

[Nevets]

You are spewing untruths! Stop it! Just because you can state it on this forum, does not make it true!

Show us all the communications your MEC has put out about all this vast knowledge they have of smartpref, their research, how and what they did to look into it recently, what their conclusion was and why, negatives and positives, etc. If you can show us all this, I will retract my statement and apologize. Otherwise, your MEC is derilict.

this post is just complete nonsense... credibility = fail

Prove me wrong. Just like speed tape said, just because you say it here doesn't make it true. So ANYONE, please post the communications from your MEC and finally prove me wrong. And if I am, I will humbly apologize.

 

[79%N1]

Why would they send out a damm communication to us that says. 'hey everyone! Guess what we did today. We tested this thing called smartpref and we really dont like it or think its any good for you guys. We started at 9 am, and finished at 3. We ran lots of solutions and it was real neato, but we're not sure it will work for 4,000 pilots or that the real time bid thingy will be of any benefit"!

Really? You think they put something out to us for everything they do? So, that is why we can't show you some results they communicated to us! Is that really how you think it works? If you want, PM me and I'll get you a number for our MEC chair, Scheduling chair and CNC chair and you can ask them all about it.

 

[CFI2766]

Idiots. You are all morons. It's not hard to see the future here... Are we really going to sacrifice the futures of 4000+ pilots on the debate about a product that is much akin to a Chevy vs Ford argument?

 

[Speedtape]

The version that asa looked at several years ago was a different version than is available now. Further more, they spent several hours with the vendor but did not participate in any sort of testing.

Both versions globalize. What's changed? From one of the Association participants, the Company did not want to consider the vendor because...............It was a one man show, not a viable business, no customers, no track record in a live environment, and a risk that they were not willing to take with 1600 pilots, and 1000 F/A's. What's changed except now there are 4200 pilots and 2500 F/A's.



They did not participate in any testing this time either. viewing a presentation and testing your own pairings it completely different.

Hmm, according to sources they were doing runs since last Fall, with ASA pairings in one of your crew bases. Have you talked to them? Yes, you have and you know what they did. Your research is like looking at the problem through a straw. There is not a fully functional operating system with 400 pilots bidding in a live environment to provide an environment that can provide reliable sampling. What pilot groups that use this system have you been able to speak with. Talk with pilots at our mainline partner and hear what they have to say when they looked at this system. Talk to Comair pilots who used an earlier version of SmartPref, SLICK, and see what they have to say. The common theme is that the awarding is unpredictable, NON-transparent, and awards cannot be explained because of the algorithm. In fact, one source said that a different result can exist for different runs with no changes to the settings. Really????

In the past several years no one has gone to PBS with the exception of you. Of which your system was selected after four vendors visited ATL in one day and the decision was made at the end of the day. So you tell me who has done their "research" when you select a vendor in one day?

This is another misrepresentation of the truth. The original committee started the "official" search in mid 2008 and it lasted several months. The meeting you mentioned occurred after several months of research, in addition to multiple meetings with pilots from other airlines that used different systems (no better source). In addition, there was a presentation of the Flightline system at a BOD in Las Vegas for the MEC. One of the main issues that they discovered from other pilot groups was the egregious awarding that happens in a Globalized system. The unique difference in the Flight Line system is that it does not globalize and to the greatest extent possible, as compared to every other system, honors seniority. Does SmartPref globalize, and what are your thoughts on that?

They were close with one company that subsequently went into bankruptcy. They were close with another that didn't select any PBS software and chose to stay with line bidding.

That's only 2 and there were other groups that did not select SmartPref either. No customers over 6 years is VERY concerning and what did you disover that they didn't?

Hey, I understand the fear of a new company and new system.
First, there really is NOT a Company--except on paper! Who wants to be a guinea pig for a new system? I really don't think the Company has changed their position on this "Company" with one employee--maybe?

Which is why we recommended that it not be implemented until after a year or two of use in our phase II.

I have multiple concerns with the statement above. First, it sounds as though even you have a lack of confidence in the system. Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? Secondly, you are going to experiment with your bottom 40% pilots who are all going to be globalized? Why not roll it out to all pilots if it works? It appears that this is a delay tactic so you can maintain line bidding. I am pretty sure that, if you are allowed to execute that plan, that with that system, you will create enough misery with the leftover pairings, that it will fail. Then where are you?

Alas, we're at where we're at. So we can bicker all day long or you can take some time to see the system we're proposing and help us make it the best possible.

For the record, we have the best system! Along with that system we have good rules. In addition to the satisfaction expressed by our pilots through multiple means, other airline pilot groups are impressed with the system and rules we were able to negotiate. It works and does not need major changes. Most importantly, it does not use globalizing logic like SmartPref and the other system like the Continental pilots use. Those systems have pot luck awarding that no one can explain, not even the Professor!

 

[Speedtape]

Your airline was going to be decimated by being forced to be the 2nd lowest DCI carrier. ASA needed a dance partner to merge with in order to create synergy savings. The last thing Inc was going to do was to merge Skywest with ASA. That's where XJT comes into the picture. XJT was getting flying from UAX and was negotiating a CPA with USAir for flying out of phx.
Really? We are not the 2nd lowest cost DCI carrier. I got news for you Brother, that flying that you think you are going to get from UAX will probably be going to Skywest. They will fly the big RJs and you will still be flying the little ones. That CPA in PHX, it going to Skywest.


When do the leases/CPA expire on the 200s? Didn't you just lose 6 recently that had expired? Maybe he is talking about that and not the DAL TA.
When do the leases expired on the 145's? You might want to check, because it's soon!



It's not the XJT MEC who was dragging their feet when management said they wanted a TA in 90 days. It's not the XJT MEC who has not moved from their original bidding system position. It's not
the XJT MEC who is hard headed. Your guys won't even give smartpref an honest look!
Well, how would you know that? Have you moved from your original bidding system position? We already have PBS, haven't you heard? Can an MEC be hard headed? Our folks have looked at SmartPref, a Globalizing system, very similar to the Globalizing system that Continental has. We decided a long time ago we did not want Globalizing or a system like Continental's. Is that what you want?

Your MEC is derelict.

Our MEC is stable and provides good representation for our pilots.

We have not changed MEC Chairmen 4 times since the announcement of the merger, multiple changes in voting members, and almost a complete turnover in the JNC. But who's counting? And what happened to you?

Derelict? Really? Maybe, you should google the word! And please, make intellectual arguments based on facts, and not juvenile name calling! It's so unbecoming of you!

 

[Fishpaw]

Our MEC is stable and provides good representation for our pilots.

We have not changed MEC Chairmen 4 times since the announcement of the merger, multiple changes in voting members, and almost a complete turnover in the JNC. But who's counting? And what happened to you?

Derelict? Really? Maybe, you should google the word! And please, make intellectual arguments based on facts, and not juvenile name calling! It's so unbecoming of you!

Speedtape, who are you and what is your seniority at ASA? Your arguements lack merit with the average line pilot at XJT if you can't be open about your position/seniority.

 

[enuffalready]

Speedtape, who are you and what is your seniority at ASA? Your arguements lack merit with the average line pilot at XJT if you can't be open about your position/seniority.

WTF does it matter if he is number 1 or 1600. your arguments lack merit with the educated population because you cannot spell argument

 

[Nevets]

Why would they send out a damm communication to us that says. 'hey everyone! Guess what we did today. We tested this thing called smartpref and we really dont like it or think its any good for you guys. We started at 9 am, and finished at 3. We ran lots of solutions and it was real neato, but we're not sure it will work for 4,000 pilots or that the real time bid thingy will be of any benefit"!

Really? You think they put something out to us for everything they do? So, that is why we can't show you some results they communicated to us! Is that really how you think it works? If you want, PM me and I'll get you a number for our MEC chair, Scheduling chair and CNC chair and you can ask them all about it.

Yes, our MEC did just that. At their own expense seeing that most of the ERJ pilots are against any PBS. That is how it works. I know from experience. Why havent they communicated ANYTHING? Trust me, what people say and what they put in writing to their name can be vastly different. Why won't your MEC put in writing what they are apparently telling the few pilots that call them? Why won't you guys even ask that question?