New ASA/XJT JCBA rumor....

[Oakum_Boy]

Who cares. We're about to lose 2/3 of the CRJ fleet and you folks want gold-lined streets and are worried about which software. What most of you should be hoping for is a new job.

 

[79%N1]

^^^^^^^^^^^ This!

Who cares how long the contract is for and what bidding is used or retirement. There won't be a job to retire from. Its funny how the Delta guys are complaining about scope when their contract effectively puts an end to their affiliates. We can argue over if that is good or bad all day, but bottom line is there will not be enough jobs at mainline for everyone, and the junior folks are not only out of a job, but will have few options. Instead of argueing here on PBS, update your logbooks and brush up on your interviewing skills. Junior Captains, brush up on your flows from the right seat.

 

[Texx]

Yea you are retarded. Should be a section for "Flightline" apparently everything else would be quickly done if ASA MEC would give up their ego centric behavior.

It would have been done a long time ago if your guys would work more than 2 days a week at the beginning. Show up in ATL at noon on Tuesday and leave at noon on Thursday. Oh yeah, and watch porn on there laptops while they were here. Real productive.

 

[bigshooter107]

Who cares. We're about to lose 2/3 of the CRJ fleet and you folks want gold-lined streets and are worried about which software. What most of you should be hoping for is a new job.

Exactly, we need a JCBA now. The company needs to know costs for the next few years to bid on the 900 flying and pinnacle and eagle will have concessionary contracts very soon. There are not going to be enough chairs for everyone when the music stops...

 

[Speedtape]

^^^^^^^^^^^ This!

Who cares how long the contract is for and what bidding is used or retirement. There won't be a job to retire from. Its funny how the Delta guys are complaining about scope when their contract effectively puts an end to their affiliates. We can argue over if that is good or bad all day, but bottom line is there will not be enough jobs at mainline for everyone, and the junior folks are not only out of a job, but will have few options. Instead of argueing here on PBS, update your logbooks and brush up on your interviewing skills. Junior Captains, brush up on your flows from the right seat.

First, it is not gloom and doom for Connection Carriers. Read the TA critically. It is much better than you think!

 

[ASA_Aviator]

First, it is not gloom and doom for Connection Carriers. Read the TA critically. It is much better than you think!

Overall, it's a decline for the regionals. If one company gets most of the aircraft, and loses minimal numbers of 50 sweaters, then yes, it won't be doom for that company. I bet we all share the crap sandwich though.

Luckily, there will likely be hiring and growth. It just sucks for those who were planning to make a career of the regionals.

 

[Speedtape]

Overall, it's a decline for the regionals. If one company gets most of the aircraft, and loses minimal numbers of 50 sweaters, then yes, it won't be doom for that company. I bet we all share the crap sandwich though.

Luckily, there will likely be hiring and growth. It just sucks for those who were planning to make a career of the regionals.

There will not be enough pilots to go around anyway. The most desired career will always be at a major for most pilots. So, based on the assumptions in the first 2 sentences, the real shortage will be at the regionals. This means, that that fact alone would restrict growth and quite possibly the labor pool in the regional industry want even be able to support existing or future levels. For those who choose to stay, you will be the big fish in the little pond. You will have secure and good paying jobs because of the limited number of pilots for the available demand. Now, relax and take a deep breath! However, there will be fewer regionals! Only the financially strong will survive--e.g., INC.

 

[79%N1]

There will not be enough pilots to go around anyway. The most desired career will always be at a major for most pilots. So, based on the assumptions in the first 2 sentences, the real shortage will be at the regionals. This means, that that fact alone would restrict growth and quite possibly the labor pool in the regional industry want even be able to support existing or future levels. For those who choose to stay, you will be the big fish in the little pond. You will have secure and good paying jobs because of the limited number of pilots for the available demand. Now, relax and take a deep breath! However, there will be fewer regionals! Only the financially strong will survive--e.g., INC.

\

....................and Mesa! Don't forget Mesa! They have the best on time for 3 years, and their pilots are the highest compensated!

 

[Speedtape]

Yea you are retarded. Should be a section for "Flightline" apparently everything else would be quickly done if ASA MEC would give up their ego centric behavior.

hahaha--have to laugh at the pot talking to the kettle! The ASA MEC is hanging on to the best PBS system and rules in the industry. They are protecting your pilots from the POS system that your scheduling chairman is pushing because he does not want to lose his position of power in the new world order! It's that simple!

 

[mckpickle]

hahaha--have to laugh at the pot talking to the kettle! The ASA MEC is hanging on to the best PBS system and rules in the industry. They are protecting your pilots from the POS system that your scheduling chairman is pushing because he does not want to lose his position of power in the new world order! It's that simple!

I've been listening to your oral diarrhea on here for quite some time. Its mostly amusing however I have to comment here. I'm sorry sir however I have no want to continue this after the merger. Furthermore I wouldn't even still be the chairman now if it weren't for the fact that my MEC has requested that I stay. I've been on this committee for a very long time and bring more experience to the job that the combination of most of your volunteers put together. That said, I don't care two shiits about smartpref. I have no loyalty to them. The reason why it's recommended is because it is the best system out there. It has an entirely new approach to bidding by use of the live bidding and has the best chance for ensuring we maintain our quality of life. Contrary to lies spread it does not globalize and take trips from the most senior bidders to give to junior ones. Further more I suggest you get your facts straight about how much "research" your side has done on the topic. Not that I think you'll care or that it'll chance your mind, however you should know the truth about exactly what has been done.
With regards to your system being the best out there, well, I suppose thats a subjective argument. I don't think it's a bad system and when used appropriately and as designed it's able to perform its function properly. However it is not able to do that in it's current form. You can argue with me all you want but I can show you side by side runs with smartpref, line bidding and flightline. And your system simply will not provide our pilots the same quality of life that can be achieved with either of the other two systems. What can you show me to back up your claims? You can't because you are simply a mouthpiece for those who tell you what to say and provide you with what they consider the facts although with nothing to back it up.
So blast me all you want, make it personal for all I care but at least try to get some of your fact right.

 

[bigshooter107]

I've been listening to your oral diarrhea on here for quite some time. Its mostly amusing however I have to comment here. I'm sorry sir however I have no want to continue this after the merger. Furthermore I wouldn't even still be the chairman now if it weren't for the fact that my MEC has requested that I stay. I've been on this committee for a very long time and bring more experience to the job that the combination of most of your volunteers put together. That said, I don't care two shiits about smartpref. I have no loyalty to them. The reason why it's recommended is because it is the best system out there. It has an entirely new approach to bidding by use of the live bidding and has the best chance for ensuring we maintain our quality of life. Contrary to lies spread it does not globalize and take trips from the most senior bidders to give to junior ones. Further more I suggest you get your facts straight about how much "research" your side has done on the topic. Not that I think you'll care or that it'll chance your mind, however you should know the truth about exactly what has been done.
With regards to your system being the best out there, well, I suppose thats a subjective argument. I don't think it's a bad system and when used appropriately and as designed it's able to perform its function properly. However it is not able to do that in it's current form. You can argue with me all you want but I can show you side by side runs with smartpref, line bidding and flightline. And your system simply will not provide our pilots the same quality of life that can be achieved with either of the other two systems. What can you show me to back up your claims? You can't because you are simply a mouthpiece for those who tell you what to say and provide you with what they consider the facts although with nothing to back it up.
So blast me all you want, make it personal for all I care but at least try to get some of your fact right.

Surely your are not the real XJT MEC Chairman posting on this board.

 

[Baronman]

Surely your are not the real XJT MEC Chairman posting on this board.

He's not. He's a volunteer. Scheduling is his business.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Pickle, first off, I am no fan of PBS. It mostly seems to benefit the senior and gets more guys off reserve. And now I'm working 4 days with 2 days strung together.

Please explain how live bidding works unless EVERYONE participates in it. It looks like a flashy gimmick to sell the software that won't work in the real world. How do you know it will work? Our flight attendant PBS does it, but it seems to be useless, totally useless. I don't want to make a choice based on some gimmick that won't work and then have our reps say Oops...we were mistaken.

It also make everyone nervous when a software vendor is pushed that has no customers. But one person who seems to be a really big fan. Yes I know somebody has to be the first, but I don't want to be. Period.

Im not flaming, just asking some questions. I dont know jack about smartpref, just rumors. And of course that needs to change. I am asking you to give us more information..

 

[Whydoitry]

I dont know jack about smartpref, just rumors. And of course that needs to change. I am asking you to give us more information..

He will probably answer your questions, but the question our side keeps bringing up is why is your MEC not providing you with any objective information? Our scheduling commitee Did research and published a report, why does your MEC refuse to do the same? I want all the information I can get before I vote on anything, the CRJ side seems to be content just blindly following their reps.

 

[mckpickle]

Pickle, first off, I am no fan of PBS. It mostly seems to benefit the senior and gets more guys off reserve. And now I'm working 4 days with 2 days strung together.

Please explain how live bidding works unless EVERYONE participates in it. It looks like a flashy gimmick to sell the software that won't work in the real world. How do you know it will work? Our flight attendant PBS does it, but it seems to be useless, totally useless. I don't want to make a choice based on some gimmick that won't work and then have our reps say Oops...we were mistaken.

It also make everyone nervous when a software vendor is pushed that has no customers. But one person who seems to be a really big fan. Yes I know somebody has to be the first, but I don't want to be. Period.

Im not flaming, just asking some questions. I dont know jack about smartpref, just rumors. And of course that needs to change. I am asking you to give us more information..

Very valid questions. Frankly, when your side brought up their concerns about the fact they were a new-ish company without any customers, we listened. We originally back off smartpref. But then it was flightline or nothing...which our MEC was unwilling to do. It was hoped that by implementing the system in phase II we could learn what would be needed for a full roll out without the risk.
As for the live aspect, everyone is required to have a standing bid set up. If you live locally then you mostly bid for 1 and 2 day trips. If you commute, you bid for 4 days. The system would have that information in the form of a standing bid. The system take that info and does the initial run before bidding starts in order to establish where the global constrained line falls. (this line is determined based on seniority processed live everage trend, or splat, and the vertical and horizontal stacking of trips. As bidding progresses that line moves based on bids. For instance normally senior pilots bid lower line values....but if a few senior guys bid higher, junior guys in the restricted grouping are allowed to fly less. This is of course all dependent on the negotiated work rules such as credit value of preassigned credit and allowed open time.
Hope that helps.

 

[mckpickle]

Surely your are not the real XJT MEC Chairman posting on this board.

Nope, scheduling committee chair for the last 7 years and on the committee for the most part since early 2000. I know most "union types" stay away from these boards. But I find it a decent way to communicate....well, until John and Will speak as though they actually have the "facts".

 

[79%N1]

What was the big issue against Flightline? You put in prefs, it awards the pairings. I'm not talking about the work rules, just the software.

 

[Clutch]

This is so played.

 

[www.]

All I can say is BAhahahahahahahahahahaha!

 

[mtsupilot376]

Unless smartpref has a mobile iOS app and is willing to support a mobile platform in the ways that flightline already does, I'm not interested. I enjoy the convenience of having my schedule, hotel info, etc. one click away on my iPhone. I hardly print pairings any more. It's yet another great feature of their system.

 

[sweptback]

As for the live aspect, everyone is required to have a standing bid set up. If you live locally then you mostly bid for 1 and 2 day trips. If you commute, you bid for 4 days. The system would have that information in the form of a standing bid. The system take that info and does the initial run before bidding starts in order to establish where the global constrained line falls. (this line is determined based on seniority processed live everage trend, or splat, and the vertical and horizontal stacking of trips. As bidding progresses that line moves based on bids. For instance normally senior pilots bid lower line values....but if a few senior guys bid higher, junior guys in the restricted grouping are allowed to fly less. This is of course all dependent on the negotiated work rules such as credit value of preassigned credit and allowed open time.
Hope that helps.

I don't know of any pilot that bids via their standing bid. If you're banking the live aspect based on pilots' standing bids... then it will be worthless.

When we had the first few months of PBS, the scheduling committee ran practice solutions each day, a few days prior to bid close. While not official, it got passed around the crew room... and it was useless. Guys would look and see what they got, then change their bids, rendering every solution junior to them as inaccurate.

Live view is one of those new gee-whiz features that seems good but really isn't. I hope that is not the real reason why XJT wants Smartpref so badly.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm afraid of

 

[Speedtape]

I've been listening to your oral diarrhea on here for quite some time. Its mostly amusing however I have to comment here. I'm sorry sir however I have no want to continue this after the merger. Furthermore I wouldn't even still be the chairman now if it weren't for the fact that my MEC has requested that I stay.

Then, why wait? Surely, you are not the only person who can handle scheduling issues. No one person should ever be that important in this Union that things can't move on without them.

I've been on this committee for a very long time and bring more experience to the job that the combination of most of your volunteers put together.

Your self-validation is flattering, and if you have been doing this work for that long, then you should know something. We have many people with years of experience also. I am confident that they can hold there own. However, your inference that you know more than most of our committee raises concern-- but not about them. We have many capable volunteers, which is how it should be, and they work well together from what I hear. We don't have a one man show! If someone needs to leave for whatever reason, there are others who can pick up the torch.

That said, I don't care two shiits about smartpref. I have no loyalty to them. The reason why it's recommended is because it is the best system out there. It has an entirely new approach to bidding by use of the live bidding and has the best chance for ensuring we maintain our quality of life.

"I don't care two ********************s about smartpref." Really......? IF, (repeated for effect) IF it was the best system out there, then why does it not have ONE single customer in the 5-6 years that this product has been on the market? Have you discovered something that none of the other potential customers before you found? .......Really? In REALITY, Mr. MCKPICKEL, it does not utilize "live bidding" and you should know that. It does not process in real time. Processing is delayed--maybe for as long as an hour with crew classes in the 400-500 range and maybe even longer depending how the software is spec-ed out. Oh, a bidder may see something on his "virtual schedule" as he submits, but it is not "live bidding" and is subject to change at the next processing interval. As stated, that processing interval could be as long as an hour--or longer! In addition, the integrity of the the results of what a bidder may see is even close to what a bidder's actual schedule is, makes the flawed assumption that ALL pilots are bidding. In the real world. that simply does not happen! Ten percent or more do not even bid until the last 2 hours, which can totally change a final outcome.

Contrary to lies spread it does not globalize and take trips from the most senior bidders to give to junior ones. Further more I suggest you get your facts straight about how much "research" your side has done on the topic. Not that I think you'll care or that it'll chance your mind, however you should know the truth about exactly what has been done.

If a specific pairing is available when a bidder bids, and the bidder bids for that specific pairing and has no other conflicts, does it ALWAYS award that specific pairing to the bidder? PrefBid DOES! SmartPref does not always, and can Globalize! And contrary to your spin, even if it could be regulated, and you could even negotiate those rules, it will not produce satisfactory results to allow this Company to operate profitably. That is contrary to SmartPref's system logic. Excessive open time would result, less lines would be completed, and more Reserves would be the result. That is the very reason that Line Bidding is DOA.

Our group has 17 months of bidding results with a functional system that has many customers other than the ASA side. The majority of the users like it and would not go back to line bidding because the logic is based on seniority, and they have more control over their schedules. In SmartPref, there is a lot less predictability because of the award logic--which even the owner can not explain, and does not care to explain.

Our pilots did sufficient research to know that they do not want SmartPref. It does not have predictability, has limited transparency, and does not produce a report that can provide specific information on why or why not the bidder was awarded a specific pairing. Your research is not based on actual bid results, or 400-500 pilots bidding in an active envrionment. In fact, you cannot even guarantee or know if the software will work in the real bidding environment because there are NO customers using it! Your research is based on a few pilots submitting multiple bids in a small crew class on. Are you really sure you want to endorse this product?

With regards to your system being the best out there, well, I suppose thats a subjective argument. I don't think it's a bad system and when used appropriately and as designed it's able to perform its function properly.

There are subjective arguments to about every issue in life, certainly in any scheduling issue. However, thank you for assessment. About 1600 pilots and 1000 flight attendants would agree with those statements.


However it is not able to do that in it's current form. You can argue with me all you want but I can show you side by side runs with smartpref, line bidding and flightline. And your system simply will not provide our pilots the same quality of life that can be achieved with either of the other two systems.

First, by now, you know that Line Bidding is no longer on the table. It is inefficient, cost your former Company too much money contributing to their financial demise, and only really served about 60% of your pilot group.

Secondly, SmartPref is not proven. There is no track history, it has never been tested in a live environment, and thus your results can not be validated or verified.

PrefBid will produce lines for at least 85% of the crewmembers in each position (determined by the Company's Reserve needs). Even junior lines are very palatable, as you have seen. In Line Bidding, only 60% of your pilots are line holders. What about the other 40% of your pilots? Do they not matter? In addition, in PrefBid, as compared to Smartpref, there is more transparency, more predictability and the award logic can be verified for each pilot with a Bid Award Detail. There is no "Secret Sauce" voodoo magic award logic that can not be explained.

What can you show me to back up your claims? You can't because you are simply a mouthpiece for those who tell you what to say and provide you with what they consider the facts although with nothing to back it up.

Along with 1600 pilots, with 17 months of bidding, I can tell you that I have more schedule satisfaction than I ever had with Line Bidding. I can tell you if I bid right, I have a schedule in one process that I can get satisfaction from without bidding the rest of the month in all the open time process trying to fix my schedule. I can tell you that even junior pilots in a position can get better lines than I could have dreamed for when I was junior. I can tell you that this Company is saving money over even our line bidding system in the past. I have no problem with that because I win too! Those are the claims that I can make because I have used it for 17 months, and enjoy having control over my schedule.

I know most of the people involved with that process. I trust their judgement and am sure they did the research and have all the information they need. I also have many friends that fly at other airlines that have globalized systems, including Continental, Comair, and Skywest. They are not happy with their Globalized bidding systems. When I share the information with them about mine, they covet what they hear regarding the awards and rules.

In fact, Comair used an earlier version of SmartPref called SLICK. They got rid of it because of the "Secret Sauce" and the inability to explain the awards. No one likes pot-luck in globalized systems. The only thing that has changed is the addition of the GUI, which is nothing more than FOOL's Gold. It makes people think that what they see is what they get, and that is not the case for a variety of reasons, some discussed above.

Ask a Comair Pilot that was there when they had SLICK, how he liked it. Slick is the same program without the GUI.

So blast me all you want, make it personal for all I care but at least try to get some of your fact right.

I got my facts, the truths, and the evidence of a functional system that I have used for 17 months with great satisfaction.

Can you say the same? Did you research why many of the other potential customers did not purchase this system? Those are facts we would all like to know!

 

[ASApuppy]

I remember the Flightline program we use had or has a "prediction mode" or whatever it is called. It was never turned on for us, but was for the flight attendents during their training phase.

No reason it could not be turned on for us. They could add a feature that shows how many valid bidders had bid too. Maybe of benefit for the company too, as they can see how the month is shaping up.

 

[Leroy Smith]

How can there possibly be live feedback. The current runs are taking DAYS to calculate the awards. Will there be a Cray or DeepBlue available to make this "live" preview work. Or will you be able to take control of the process from the company and streamline it enough that a preview would somehow be feasible? Good luck with getting them to give that up. If the process and the rules are not 101% nailed down and boilerplate - positively controlled by someone who every single pilot trusts (and without any report available as to why an schedule is awarded that is an absolute necessity) there will be a decimation of QOL at this company.

I have to agree with the folks who argue for improving the system in place. You are setting yourselves up for heartache by going back to square one, time and energy would be so much better spent trying to change pairing construction, or just basic work RULES. What's available to bid on is probably a bigger deal than how it gets awarded. I know you all dont like the idea of losing what you have now and the desire to find something that will make that less painful, but you are kidding yourselves with this.

 

[SiuDude]

Hmm, I wonder of there is any lobbying going on on behalf of Flightline. They stand to lose a lot of money if XJET abandons the software. Maybe greasing a few people's pockets to be their "brand ambassador?"

Personally though, I hope it doesn't go away, as long as the company doesn't mess with "vacation low."

 

[Speedtape]

Hmm, I wonder of there is any lobbying going on on behalf of Flightline. They stand to lose a lot of money if XJET abandons the software. Maybe greasing a few people's pockets to be their "brand ambassador?"

Personally though, I hope it doesn't go away, as long as the company doesn't mess with "vacation low."

Well, I guess you can make all the conspiracy theories you want. The proof is in the pudding. Pilot satisfaction with a known product and 17 months of bidding speaks for itself.

On the other hand, since you brought it up, how does one man's word about a system that has no customers in over 6 years of existence carry enough weight to jeopardize the QOL of potentially 4300 pilots and 2300 flight attendants. His research and the the results is on a system that does is not currently run in real operation. He has had problems with it even in a limited test environment. What does he know that every other airline that has looked at this system did not know? What is his motive and what is he protecting?

There have been many pilots involved with the research on our side--not one or two. They have all come to the same conclusion.

There is no tangible Company for this product. It has no other products and it has no current ability to support the product. If any, it has only one employee--the salesman. It has no corporate office that can be associated with the Company. The owner appears to be in retirement and lives in Europe.

You say you have reports and research? Where are the other airlines customers that have much more expertise in research than any pilot? What makes you so right and everyone else wrong? You are endorsing this product that may not work and if so may be no better than what they have at Continental. Are you ready to spend your career in exile when this FLOPS?

Mr. MCKPICKLE, at least a snake oil salesman had a covered wagon with his Brand on the side and a few horses. Unfortunately, they moved around too and had no accountability. Their scheme was not based on building repeat customers. Sell the product, and move on! When they covered the market, they didn't make repeat calls. They created a new product so they could start over.

We all want a proven product, with a proven Company, with proven support, with solid financial roots and that will be around! Software companies come and go every day. Yes, we want a Company that is established and will be around, because most of us will be around and we will have to live with a bidding system for years to come. So, we want a known quantity and something that is proven and predictable. Quite frankly, we don't want to go through the PBS HELL that Comair and Continental goes through. We don't want to have to negotiate for a new system every new contract because it does not work.

What is it that you know that many other Companies didn't that examined this product over the last 6 years? We want a Honda that is proven, not a Yugo with a 25 year warranty because it doesn't work--and probably want last 6 months, much less be around for years to come.

 

[COOPERVANE]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[ASADriver]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^2ndthis^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[bigshooter107]

Nope, scheduling committee chair for the last 7 years and on the committee for the most part since early 2000. I know most "union types" stay away from these boards. But I find it a decent way to communicate....well, until John and Will speak as though they actually have the "facts".

Is PBS the show stopper when it comes to getting a TA agreed on? I have been told that pay rates are more or less Agreed upon, but it seems like both sides inability to agree on scheduling software is going to keep this contract at an impass, unless the company agrees to run two different programs, doubtful...
Between the Delta Ta ramifications , pinnacle, and potentially American the company needs to know their costs for the next few years to bid this flying or we will be left without a chair when the music stops.