New ALPA Message to USAirways Pilots pt 3

[PHXFLYR]

Again, do Not have a dog in this fight, but do know quite a few US Air (east) pilots.

".....spending our money on expanding the east operation." What expansion?? Other than some additional European flying, there has been NO expansion. In fact, since the merger, the 'capacity' of US Air has declined in viturally every month, with the small increase in int'l being far offset by declines in domestic capacity.

And, there is NO growth in the future plans of the airline

-E190s are replacing 737s. And, the options on future E190s are from converted options for E170s, which U had on the books prior to the merger.

-"60 or so A320s" (which I believe the total narrow-body order is actually a total of about 90 a/c), are ALL replacement aircraft.

-30+ widebodies (actually I think the 'firm' order is only 25), and some may be growth, but some will probably be replacements for the 767s in the future, plus the 757s (all but about 20) are scheduled to go away.

So, there has be NO real "expanding of the east operation." Drunk dumbass dougie does Not know how to 'grow' an airline. And, in all likelihood, all of the a/c (buses) that AWA has on order prior to merger was have been just 'replacement' a/c. And, prior to the merger, US Air staffing was allowed to decline (guys retiring at a rate of 20-30/mth. and not being replaced) well below what was necessary; in my honest opinion, as a deliberate move to reduce costs to 'make the deal.' Hence, the rush to accelerate the recalls, as flights were being cancelled, just to bring staffing levels up to where they should have been. As I believe (as I have studied this industy and business in general for years) that this merger was planned by Lakefield and Parker probably 2yrs before it was actually announced.

So, with NO real growth in the future of US Airways, the only way to 'move up' is through 'attrition.' And, the AWA (west) have their attrition and the US Air (east) have their attrition, but don't see any "stealing" as I stated before.

The sooner that both sides realize that the 'New' US Airways is not really going to 'grow' or go anywhere until that Drunk Dumbass dougie either, leaves, dies, or goes back to jail. Until, of course, the next merger, in which case, he will F#%k, both groups.

Don't you think there are 'a lot' of DL guys out there very happy that they dodged that 'drunk dumbass.' And, I guess a year ago, there were about 450 furloughed DL guys out there on the street, that you guys would have said, 'had NO career expectations' as they were 'furloughed' but most are now sitting in the right seat of a 767 flying int'l.

So, no stealing, as the US Air guys are just taking advantage of 'their attrition,' the same thing that I would do, and the same thing that you would do in their place; and of course, if you say you would do otherwise, you'd be just lying.

Just a thought.

DA

For someone who "doesn't have a dog in this fight" you sure have some mighty strong opinions on our resident lush,now don't you. Kinda makes one wonder if your "no dog in this fight" mantra is just a ruse.

Just a thought....

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

You sound like you put a lot of thought and time into your post. I commend you for that, but I have to disagree with your opinion.

For example, I am the average line pilot out here. (PHL AB FO). I will vote no on any TA that comes through, unless it has a 20yr fence and a 40% raise. Simply because of the loss of seniority. That is the key issue. Pay/work rules/retirement are all important but secondary concerns.

Meeting those requirements is doubtful, so I don't see it happening.

Nevermind....I don't even know how to begin responding to such twisted logic.

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Seems simple enough. USAir Captain retires, USAir F/O takes his place, AWA Capt retires AWA F/O takes his place. Any new aircraft past the numbers present at the time of the merger goes per the nic list.

The AWA guys get their attrition that they brought with them, the Airways guys get the attrition that they brought. Granted that USAir has many more retiring in the very near future than AWA does, (Roughly 800 Capts in 5 years or so), but most of the growth seats would go to the west due to the Nic award.

Airways has a mass exodous of pilots that started a year or so back and will continue for quite a few years, so even without the merger and zero growth in airframes every furloughed pilot would have been back barring a complete shutdown in very short time with hiring needed. Arguing if airways would have made it or if AWA would have survived is an exercise in futility. Airways has been around since the 40's in one form or another and AWA since the early 80's. Neither were a real prize at the time of the merger. One was a second rate wannabe and the other was a has been.

Together in an amicable agreement they could be a powerhouse again.

Maybe in your dreams.The reality is both companies should have been shot and put out of their misery years ago. The merger won't change anything in that regard, amicable agreement or not.

PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

There will be an agreement, but it will not be amicable and thus the has beens will become second rate wannabe's.

- AAA MEC is going to be neutered by national. They will remain resolute in their defiance so that the blame can be deflected from them when they are relieved of their duties.

- TA will be negotiated and presented

- USAPA will stir the pot to no avail. $$ talks.

- Threats from USAPA will be met with firm action from the company and reveal who truly is in control.

- TA will pass by very small margin

- Nicolau decision will stand

- East will be pissed because of seniority

- West will be pissed because we ended up with concessions after wasting nearly a year on the list battle and lost much leverage in negotiations as a result.

- We'll all live happily every after as long as there is not another merger. Our wounds as they are will heal, but they will sink us all in a future merger if we can't stand shoulder to shoulder as a unified group.

Take it to the bank...it will play out as I say.

Either way, the delay tactics are deplorable and are admittedly (ref A350's comments) what this is all about.

Which explains why I lost all respect for the average USAir East pilot and their alleged 'leadership' .Not that it matters to any of them.

PHXFLYR

 

[Hpilot]

Nevermind....I don't even know how to begin responding to such twisted logic.

PHXFLYR

I'll give it a try. 40% ? Maybe 35% or $170 hr. narrow body max. 20 yr fence. The longest you can hold up the list is maybe 5 yrs. I personaly am a Westie for life and have no desire to be based out East. 20yrs, I'd rethink that number.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Whether, in the end, USAPA wins the total election is a 50/50 shot. But in the end it delays the integration, the East pilots capture their attrition, and in their minds, they get what they were after all along.
A350

Let's see if I've got this straight; Most of the US Airways pilots are willing to delay the integration and thus a new contract, so a hundred or so pilots can upgrade? Your pilot group is either incredibly stupid or you have a serious disconnect with reality. I'm willing to bet it's the latter.

 

[A350]

Guppie:

Not a hundred, perhaps a thousand.

A350

 

[weasel_lips]

Guppie:

Not a hundred, perhaps a thousand.

A350

300 in 07 alone.

 

[weasel_lips]

Which explains why I lost all respect for the average USAir East pilot and their alleged 'leadership' .Not that it matters to any of them.

PHXFLYR

Your respect is not valued, needed, or wanted.

Thank you.

 

[Green]

Guppie:

Not a hundred, perhaps a thousand.

A350

and we are supposed to be quaking in our boots? But don't accuse AAA pilots of stealing upgrades! All the 190's and the growth 757's that the arbitrator Dana Eischien deemed AWA pilots were entitled to 33% of, now suddenly belong to AAA pilots exclusively...A350 didn't you claim at one point that you don't have a dog in this fight? You guys are losing respect industry wide. AAA pilots, the gift that keeps on giving.....

 

[Hpilot]

A hundred years ago we would have been able to hang these theiving chicken f@#%#!s from a tree.

 

[Turtle21]

DOH! DOH! You know it is the ONLY thing, or you would't want to trade your's for their's.

 

[A350]

Green:

As of Monday, I won't have a dog in this fight.....

I never said the East pilots were entitled to all the upgrades....I merely said that the East pilots are not making this stink for only a hundred upgrades, as GuppieDriver posted. I said perhaps a thousand or so would upgrade by delaying the implementation of the Nicolau award.

The fact that the AWA pilots are due positions and are not getting them is a function of the transition agreement and the joint contract, correct? The growth airplanes went on the East certificate, didn't they?

I don't think that was the intention, but is another unfortunate casualty of the holdup in a joint contract and the seniority integration. I don't blame you for not liking it, but as you always say, no West pilot is going to go East for an upgrade. If management had placed the growth airplanes on the West certificate, you would have received the growth.

If you think that an East pilot will sacrifice what is left of his career so other pilots will respect him afterwards, you will be sorely disappointed. As has been rehashed a dozen times already, when you have taken a 50% paycut, lost a pension, and now the only thing you have left is a few sunset years in the left seat making 40% less than you would have a few years ago and that gets taken away, there isn't much left to give a $hit about, let alone worry about gaining respect in the eyes of someone who benefits from the very thing you lost.

A350

 

[Crzipilot]

Oh yes, and I believe those 3 growth 757's, actually became replacement aircraft. So uhmmm....what seats are owed the west??? (of course I could be wrong, but pretty sure they replaced 3-5 that are or have been returned to lessor..)

 

[Green]

Green:

As of Monday, I won't have a dog in this fight.....


A350

sounds like you've moved on to greener pastures. Overseas by any chance? Best of luck to you...

 

[TWA Dude]

Oh yes, and I believe those 3 growth 757's, actually became replacement aircraft.

Irrelevant.

 

[Fast43]

Guppie:

Not a hundred, perhaps a thousand.

A350

Exactly how can you defend that statement when 2 pilot neutrals and a Binding Arbitration Award state that AAA does not deserve that many ???????????

 

[A350]

Fast:

I don't have to defend it.....

So basically your position on the seniority integration award is that AWA pilots were put in the places they were ahead of their more senior in terms of service counterparts out East because the deserve it? What did AWA pilots do to deserve the East coast upgrades/attrition?


They brought the attrition to the table. They brought the east coast and the international operation, things that AWA would have had to pay dearly to get, if they could do it at all. Yet according to the pilot neutrals and the arbitrator, you deserve that too?

A350

 

[vetrider]

Fast:

I don't have to defend it.....

So basically your position on the seniority integration award is that AWA pilots were put in the places they were ahead of their more senior in terms of service counterparts out East because the deserve it? What did AWA pilots do to deserve the East coast upgrades/attrition?


They brought the attrition to the table. They brought the east coast and the international operation, things that AWA would have had to pay dearly to get, if they could do it at all. Yet according to the pilot neutrals and the arbitrator, you deserve that too?

A350

Nicolau answered all those questions you pose, end of story. Why don't you read it? I mean with your eyes and mind open, that is.

 

[OnTheDole]

Green:


If you think that an East pilot will sacrifice what is left of his career so other pilots will respect him afterwards, you will be sorely disappointed. As has been rehashed a dozen times already, when you have taken a 50% paycut, lost a pension, and now the only thing you have left is a few sunset years in the left seat making 40% less than you would have a few years ago and that gets taken away, there isn't much left to give a $hit about, let alone worry about gaining respect in the eyes of someone who benefits from the very thing you lost.

A350

I couldn't agree with you more, which is exactly why east captains will vote yes on an ALPA contract that provides them with a modest pay increase even though it comes with the Nic. award.

When it comes to $1500+ more per month or the FO beside them upgrading... they'll pick the $ every time