New ALPA Message to USAirways Pilots pt 3

[UALjan15]

Grog:

USAir was one of the top places to work in 1987 and with the exception of the furlough in 1990 that lasted 7 years, was head and shoulders above AWA. And it was still head and shoulders above AWA after the first bankruptcy. Hell, we still had a pension.
A350

350:

Thanks for the history lesson. The thing about mergers is that history doesn't get you anything. It merely shapes what you bring to the table. In AAA's case, 15 years of previous history whittled your list down to the point where the junior man was a 1988 hire, with nearly 2000 on furlough. Not a pretty picture.

In AWA's case, history was a little kinder, but not much. Due to poor management throughout the 90s, AWA pilots never got that industry standard contract or legacy-caliber pension. As such, their ranks were pilfered for years as pilots built experience and moved on to greener pastures. Finally, under Parker, the airline gained a little traction after 9/11, hired a lot of pilots, and got strong enough to broker a deal for AAA.

Quite honestly, neither of these airlines have been a great choice for pilots for the past 15 years. Neither pilot group has the right to a "superiority complex," although one of them clearly has one. We all were granted a tremendous opportunity with the merger. AWA gained an entire east coast system with an international operation to boot--something that we should have done one our own like SWA did, but failed to. AAA gained a stay of certain execution, a good west coast system, and a (finally) good management team.

With a couple of years of solid profits, we were poised for long-term success, as long as we could combine seniority lists and contracts successfully. We all know how that is going.

As you allude to several times in your post, East F/Os and furloughees with almost 20 years longevity just can't mentally accept being at the bottom of the East seniority list, and therefore don't see themselves as seniority equals with AWA's 2004/2005 hires. A neutral arbitrator saw things differently.

Right now I feel like we're negotiating with a cult. AAA sees things through their own unique goggles. Logic and reason do not apply. They have a mantra that they chant in trance-like fashion (DOH...DOH....DOH!) And finally, they have all charged their glasses with toxic koolaid (USAPA), and appear ready to drink in unison if the rest of the world doesn't come around to their agenda.

Good luck to all of this. I wish I could think of an example of a cult showdown that ended happily, but nothing is coming to mind.

 

[Guppiedriver]

According to my seniority list there are 1800 USAirways guys hired from 1988 to 2000 now junior to AWA pilots hired in 2004. I would say that is a pretty good pad to ensure no AWA guys ever gets furloughed!

What you so conveniently forgot to mention, is that only 300 or so furloughee's have accepted recall.

 

[TWA Dude]

I am over it as I will no longer be on the list. Most of the reason for not returning is the seniority integration. I lost more than I can ever regain by returning.

What you lost was due to USAirways' bankruptcy; not Nicolau's decision.

The East pilots, by delaying the joint contract and hoping for USAPA are only doing one thing....delaying the seniority itegration. Every East pilot that upgrades is a success story in keeping the attrition where it belongs. It is in effect, a fence.

This is true and you should be embarrased to admit it. Their gain is our loss. If it were up to me there would be punitive action. For all we know, there will be.

The USAPA drive is sending ALPA a message. They ignore their membership at their peril.

If you actually believe this is the message being received you are not in touch with outsider's views of this situation. Of course, this has been the AAA's problem from the beginning: a skewed view of reality. Just because the AAA pilots really want something doesn't mean ALPA National can provide it, especially when it's unreasonable. Nobody is being ignored.

Don't think this is the end of these mergers and the tricky notion of putting pilot seniority lists together. It is the beginning. ALPA needs to put a process together that they take responsibility for, not giving it to a third party and then acting like it isn't their fault when it goes awry.

You're kidding, right? It wouldn't have gone to arbitration if the two sides had been able to agree. Exactly what process could force two sides to agree? And funny how you weren't complaining about the arbitration process before Nicolau left to make his decision.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Weasel lips... Welcome back.

Tell your JNC/MEC to come and negotiate a fence if that's what'll get things done. Hiding will not make the merger go away. Come to the table and let's find a solution.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

What you so conveniently forgot to mention, is that only 300 or so furloughee's have accepted recall.

Closer to 500 once the j4j guys are back, final numbers are not in yet. However you cut it there are a LOT of East guys below the most junior AWA guy, still a hefty furlough pad.

The fence senario makes the most sense. AWA keeps their seniority progression as does Airways. If the airline grows the fences will become a moot point as it did with the Allegheny/Mohawk merger. If it remains the same size each group gets the benefit of their respective Captain retirements. Each group would also share in any furloughs that came along.

I still think that is the only way these two pilot groups will ever be able to work together. In the end it all comes down to the rank and file pilot, regardless of what the MEC's have done. As it stands I cannot find a single airways guy that will vote for any agreement that gives 80% of those upcoming 700 to 800 East Captain retirements to west F/O's who were hired 15 to 20 years after them.

Once you get past the 1990 east DOH's it basically becomes a wash between the two groups and normal seniority progression for the most part would continue for them as if the merger never took place. the 99 to 2000 East hires which numbered 1149 are down to 300 or so and that is just about on par with what AWA hired during that period.

For full disclosure, I fall in the 99 to 2000 1149. I have no problem with the NIC award as long as the fences protect the airways retirements. I would like to make Captain again before retirement sure, but I have flown everything from a 747 down to a regional turboprop in my career and been Capt. on 2 different 121 birds and several corprate jets so I have no urge to steal a Capt seat from some AWA f/o either......let both of us benefit from our respective pilot retirements and this problem goes away pretty fast.

 

[PHXFLYR]

TWA:

I can't promise there won't be a furlough....but I can guarantee that the airline won't survive a furlough that gets to an AWA pilot the way the seniority integration went.

I am over it as I will no longer be on the list. Most of the reason for not returning is the seniority integration. I lost more than I can ever regain by returning.

The East pilots, by delaying the joint contract and hoping for USAPA are only doing one thing....delaying the seniority itegration. Every East pilot that upgrades is a success story in keeping the attrition where it belongs. It is in effect, a fence.

The USAPA drive is sending ALPA a message. They ignore their membership at their peril. Don't think this is the end of these mergers and the tricky notion of putting pilot seniority lists together. It is the beginning. ALPA needs to put a process together that they take responsibility for, not giving it to a third party and then acting like it isn't their fault when it goes awry.

A350

ALPA didn't "give it to a third party"; it was agreed to by the 2 Merger Comittees. Not only that,it was your Merger Committe people that first bought up the subject. Our guys were dead set against it and wanted to continue negotiations without mediation/arbitration in the hopes of reaching some sort of agreement together on our own. What's that saying "Be careful what you wish for? " It seem's to apply here in spades.


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Grog:



You can say what you want, it is a free country. I think you are being quite untruthful with yourself if you believe any of the stuff you say.

A350

As are you.


PHXFLYR

 

[sean67]

Closer to 500 once the j4j guys are back, final numbers are not in yet. However you cut it there are a LOT of East guys below the most junior AWA guy, still a hefty furlough pad.

The fence senario makes the most sense. AWA keeps their seniority progression as does Airways. If the airline grows the fences will become a moot point as it did with the Allegheny/Mohawk merger. If it remains the same size each group gets the benefit of their respective Captain retirements. Each group would also share in any furloughs that came along.

I still think that is the only way these two pilot groups will ever be able to work together. In the end it all comes down to the rank and file pilot, regardless of what the MEC's have done. As it stands I cannot find a single airways guy that will vote for any agreement that gives 80% of those upcoming 700 to 800 East Captain retirements to west F/O's who were hired 15 to 20 years after them.

Once you get past the 1990 east DOH's it basically becomes a wash between the two groups and normal seniority progression for the most part would continue for them as if the merger never took place. the 99 to 2000 East hires which numbered 1149 are down to 300 or so and that is just about on par with what AWA hired during that period.

For full disclosure, I fall in the 99 to 2000 1149. I have no problem with the NIC award as long as the fences protect the airways retirements. I would like to make Captain again before retirement sure, but I have flown everything from a 747 down to a regional turboprop in my career and been Capt. on 2 different 121 birds and several corprate jets so I have no urge to steal a Capt seat from some AWA f/o either......let both of us benefit from our respective pilot retirements and this problem goes away pretty fast.

I'm in the same boat, and I totally agree w/ you. What are the retirement numbers on the east for the next 5 years?

 

[A350]

TWA Dude:

My premerger retirement number would have been under 20 at USAirways....now it is north of 850. The BK didn't do that, Nicolau did.

A350

 

[johnnyb]

As you allude to several times in your post, East F/Os and furloughees with almost 20 years longevity just can't mentally accept being at the bottom of the East seniority list, and therefore don't see themselves as seniority equals with AWA's 2004/2005 hires. A neutral arbitrator saw things differently.

Right now I feel like we're negotiating with a cult. AAA sees things through their own unique goggles. Logic and reason do not apply. They have a mantra that they chant in trance-like fashion (DOH...DOH....DOH!) And finally, they have all charged their glasses with toxic koolaid (USAPA), and appear ready to drink in unison if the rest of the world doesn't come around to their agenda.

Good luck to all of this. I wish I could think of an example of a cult showdown that ended happily, but nothing is coming to mind.

Actually, I think you'll find the East pilot group to be quite pragmatic. If you can show us a contract that makes us better off than LOA 93 then we'll probably vote yes and live with the Nic award.
I believe Grog was venting recently about the East F/O's turning down a $30 per hour pay raise. Well, in just the past few months 125 F/O's upgraded to Captain and received a $40 per hour raise. Why would these pilots agree to a $10 concession?
The Nic award is so bad LOA 93 is better dollar wise to anything you can get from Tempe.
There are 2 (TWO!) issues: the seniority integration and the contract. The mistake, in my opinion, the West pilots make is in lumping them together.

 

[TWA Dude]

My premerger retirement number would have been under 20 at USAirways....now it is north of 850. The BK didn't do that, Nicolau did.

So you thought the merger wouldn't have any effect on your retirement number? Methinks your expectations were unrealistic and that's why the arbitrator's decision came as such a shock. I wasn't shocked by the Award. Relieved that I wasn't getting totally screwed, I was

 

[TWA Dude]

There are 2 (TWO!) issues: the seniority integration and the contract. The mistake, in my opinion, the West pilots make is in lumping them together.

Not quite. The Transition Agreement, agreed to by ALL sides, is what lumps them together. The East side is trying to rewrite the rules to suit their desires. And it isn't working.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

A350 said:
The USAPA drive is sending ALPA a message. They ignore their membership at their peril. Don't think this is the end of these mergers and the tricky notion of putting pilot seniority lists together. It is the beginning. ALPA needs to put a process together that they take responsibility for, not giving it to a third party and then acting like it isn't their fault when it goes awry.

This is the most telling of the East attitude. "Its not our fault, its ALPA." Your MEC put it in the hands of the Arbitrator. Your MEC selected him without objection. Your MEC selected your pilot neutral and his disagreement with nic centered the placement of the 300 that had returned since the merger started; he said nothing about the rest of the integration.

Your MEC brought us here. It didn't go exactly like they wanted and now they can't let it go and let all of us get on with our lives.

A350, tailwinds in your new career I hope it treats you better than USAir.

 

[A350]

TWA Dude/Grog:

My thoughts on merger seniority integration is well discussed on this board. The reason I get so fired up about ALPA is that yes, they have a process. The process is flawed because it can get to a neutral, that they now claim doesn't have to abide by ALPA merger policy. It is a way of sticking your head in the sand and hoping it goes away. It further insulates the Association from any liability should it go awry, like it has here IMO. Further, this will not be the end of the merger circus and without concrete policies, the pilots of the Association are at further risk from the same fate as the East guys.

Yes, I fully expected to lose some ground in the integration. However, I expected to still fly the A330 and end my career in the top few hundred. I didn't expect to lose the widebody forever and I certainly had an expectation of finishing my career in the ballpark of where I would normally have. Finishing 400 times higher on the list than intended isn't in the parking lot of the ballfield.

I am one of many who lost that kind of seniority. Did any of the AWA group lose that kind of seniority?

I wish you guys the best. Whether or not you know it, you won't find a better group than the East pilots. You just haven't seen their good side yet.

A350

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

350 I sincerely hope the good side shows up to negotiations and the group can move forward.

I sincerely hope the guys who negotiated the industry leading contracts will show us, a united pilot group, how to take on management and win.

When that group shows up, I will support them, I will picket, I will strike. I will do what it takes to get the career we were all expecting when we entered into this profession.

A way around the current issues will never be found until East meets West at the negotiating table.

 

[A350]

Grog:

You are right, but they won't show up until they exhaust all the means they have at their disposal to do what they believe to be right....not what you want, not what ALPA National wants, what THEY want. In the end, they may get nothing. But in their hearts, they are doing the right thing. Just because it doesn't fit someone else's definition doesn't mean it is wrong.

A350

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Just because it doesn't fit someone else's definition doesn't mean it is wrong.

At this point they're delusional not just wrong. They lost every challenge to the arbitration, EVERY ONE. And yet they still cling to the fight.

Its like those Japanese soldiers who refused to surrender after WWII. They stayed in the hills until like 1970 or something. They finally believed it was over and ended up wasting 30 years of their life.

 

[ferlo]

Several of you are talking about fences and how they'll solve everything. As I've written before, fences don't save anybody from furlough. The pain of any future furloughs should be shared. Nicolau's dovetail integration satifies this concept nicely.

That's all hind sight. AAA had their chance to negotiate and they F'd it up royally. Now, like immature high school kids, instead of fessing up and taking the blame, they go to DEFCON 10 and keep making things worse for themselves. Somebody over there better "man up" or they'll eventually be begging for the day the nic award came out.

Parker is not going to allow a multi billion dollar merger get hamstrung by a bunch of tantrum throwing pilots. He will win, they will lose. Take it to the bank. Pilots don't run airlines. Despite what ALPA and their podium pounding blowhards say, pilots don't control Sh*t at an airline.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The reason I get so fired up about ALPA is that yes, they have a process. The process is flawed because it can get to a neutral, that they now claim doesn't have to abide by ALPA merger policy.

You're kidding...right?

The rules of binding arbitration are fundamental to all Labor organizations, including ALPA. The ALPA Admin Manual lays it out very clearly.

In binding arbitration, both sides present their arguments, just as they did/would in the matter BEFORE it went to arbitration.

The AAA Merger Committee and MEC knew that before they got there. They knew what the arbitrator could, and could not, consider.

They KNEW it.

The integration issue was not the first time before an arbitrator for the MEC. To suggest they didn't know how arbitration works, and that ALPA Merger Policy contains "traps" for the well-intentioned is lame.

Further, the AAA Merger counsel (Katz) knows the rules VERY well. He represented the Republic pilots in the Northwest Orient merger...another integration that went to binding arbitration.

It is a way of sticking your head in the sand and hoping it goes away. It further insulates the Association from any liability should it go awry, like it has here IMO.

You divert your anger with the Award very well. By "well", I mean "irrationally".

 

[PCL_128]

The reason I get so fired up about ALPA is that yes, they have a process. The process is flawed because it can get to a neutral, that they now claim doesn't have to abide by ALPA merger policy. It is a way of sticking your head in the sand and hoping it goes away. It further insulates the Association from any liability should it go awry, like it has here IMO.

Liability isn't the issue. At least not the central issue. The real issue is neutrality. The Association represents both groups of pilots, so it would be improper for the National organization to have any say whatsoever in the integration, because no matter how it goes, somebody is going to feel that they weren't treated fairly. ALPA has to remain impartial. Otherwise, one group could receive an enormous windfall if they have the right political connections in Herndon.

This situation is a perfect example. Let's say that the Admin Manual provided for a policy that allows the Association at the National level to have control over the integration. In this case, the AAA MEC has a member of their pilot group in one of the four National Officers' positions. How can there be assurances that this Officer wouldn't work behind the scenes to tilt the integration in their favor? The AWA MEC doesn't have this advantage. The only way to provide for a fair process is to allow for an outside neutral that has no connection to the Association to arbitrate the matter if the two sides can't come to an agreement. The process is very well thought out. You could certainly say that there need to be some guidelines added, such as DOH or whatever else, but the process itself is sound. Removing the outside neutral and trying to settle it all in house would lead to disaster more often than not.

Why can't you guys just admit that your own MEC fu&^ed this up by allowing it to go to arbitration? This can't be said enough:

NEVER LET SENIORITY INTEGRATIONS GO TO ARBITRATION!!!!!!