New ALPA Message to USAirways Pilots pt 3

[abefly]

I got no dog in this fight but you forgot one thing....this vote is only for the East guys...not the west guys.

NO actually the vote is for all US Air Pilots...East and West.....Since they have the higher majority of pilots they could force the west pilots to USAPA...after spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to the west pilots after years of law suits.....

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

USAPA... It will be easy to prove that it was created to F the West pilots which is a big no-no with the NMB.

ALPA might go away but USAPA will not be the union. Another lawsuit lost by the remnants of the East.

 

[glasspilot1]

No. This is not anything like the APA/TWA deal.

Unlike APA/TWA, AAA and AWA is a ALPA on ALPA merger and so should go according to ALPA merger policy. Unless one party throws a hissy fit and then it's up for grabs!

 

[glasspilot1]

Hey, even if AAA(east) succeeds in throwing out ALPA aren't they still bound by the binding arbitration?

Just asking.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Binding arbitration will be upheld. Even USAPA thinks it will remain.

What USAPA aims to do now is build fences between the groups to shut out the West pilots from upgrades. Ala republic/northwest.

Nice bunch of guys... trying to cloak themselves by saying we're for all the USAirways Pilots while at the same time trying to F a third of the pilots on property.

 

[Crzipilot]

I guess 1/3 screwed is better than 2/3???? couldn't resist...

 

[PHXFLYR]

F'd guys? F'd guys? Geezus, these are people with families, mortgages, college to pay for. They've been through hell for 16 years.





Oh!!! Those greedy bastards!!! 100 pilots who've worked at this airline, in the east where all the revenue is made, continuously for over 20 years. Jeeze, those upgrade should have gone west. I wonder how bad you'll be crying about slow advancement after the next merger.




That's probably the most naive quote ever on this board....!

Who's facing a third furlough? every East pilot hired since 1988, while no West pilot will likely ever have to share that pain.

Hiring off the street? That means there won't be furloughs? What F'en planet are you on? Is it a junior base?



And most East pilots never intended to work at AWA, especially when it was a bottom feeder. So....what's your point? That if a pilot never intended to work at a different airline then he should just cruise through life? WTF are you talking about?




Right. And that means........?

That you are the biggest a$$hole ever to set foot in an airplane.


Phxflyr

 

[weasel_lips]

Binding arbitration will be upheld. Even USAPA thinks it will remain.

What USAPA aims to do now is build fences between the groups to shut out the West pilots from upgrades. Ala republic/northwest.

Nice bunch of guys... trying to cloak themselves by saying we're for all the USAirways Pilots while at the same time trying to F a third of the pilots on property.

Yes, a 20 year fence was it?

 

[A350]

Grog:

If your greatest ambition in life was to be an airline pilot and work for AWA, then that is your choice.

USAir was one of the top places to work in 1987 and with the exception of the furlough in 1990 that lasted 7 years, was head and shoulders above AWA. And it was still head and shoulders above AWA after the first bankruptcy. Hell, we still had a pension.

Your'e right. We had $hitty management. However, we had 455 aircraft and we received a new Airbus every week for two years, including the A330's. We made millions of dollars in the good years. Our FO's made more than your CA's for YEARS. Now you come off like AWA was the Pan Am of the 90's. What a joke. We furloughed more pilots than AWA has. So much for being the place to work.

You think it is fair that a guy hired in 1999 will never face furlough while a guy hired in 1988 can lose his job the next industry downturn? Not one AWA pilot will ever lose his job. The East pilots bear that responsibility on their own. Forgive them if they don't go away quietly.

The 100 or so Easties who upgraded deserved every one of the upgrades...because it was their attrition that led to the vacancy in the first place. You think you deserve it? You think if you were offered a job from wherever the hell you came from in 1999 at USAir you would have told them no? I doubt it.

You can say what you want, it is a free country. I think you are being quite untruthful with yourself if you believe any of the stuff you say.

A350

 

[eaglefly]

Binding arbitration will be upheld. Even USAPA thinks it will remain.

What USAPA aims to do now is build fences between the groups to shut out the West pilots from upgrades. Ala republic/northwest.

Nice bunch of guys... trying to cloak themselves by saying we're for all the USAirways Pilots while at the same time trying to F a third of the pilots on property.

Then U management will act.

They'll begin transferring your aircraft to the west and having them flown by others.

They're not (and should not) be held hostage by a bunch of infantile crybabies demanding their way at any and all costs.

U will be much better off in the long run.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

I want a new contract. Say what you want 350. But when this merger started I was kinda happy. I thought we as a combined group at a healthy airline could do something right by the profession again.

I thought maybe a strong group of guys out East, who have been able to negotiate industry leading contracts could use their experience to lead the way. That a newly emerged USAir could be strong, that its pilots could unite and get something done.

Instead it turns out you're a bunch of sniveling babies. You focus on one issue and one issue only. DOH. Nice job. You didn't spend one minute negotiating about the list with the west. DOH, DOH. Take it to binding arbitration, DOH, DOH, the arbitrator says you need to talk this out on many occasions, DOH, DOH. You lose your case in arbitration.

Now you drag your heals on everything. Including a new contract because you can't focus on anything else but a lost cause.

You can say what you want, it is a free country. I think you are being quite untruthful with yourself if you believe any of the stuff you say

If I believe everything you say, then aviation is a bigger lost cause than ever. We'll never get a new contract because you guys can't wrap your mind around the fact that liquidation meant all the USAir pilots would have been on permanent furlough from number 1 to number ??? I don't know because your list was already full of guys who had resigned, medicaled out or were plain old deceased that the actual number of East pilots may never be known.

A350 Tell your boys to negotiate a fence or something. And not just tuck their heads down a hole and refuse to talk about the issue.

Grog

 

[weasel_lips]

I think a fence would do the trick (20yr). Then maybe we could get moving towards working together. I know most Westies would be against a fence, but it is really the only hope of getting a joint contract. Otherwise, we will just operate separately, which in effect is a fence unto itself. So, why not do it with a joint agreement?

 

[A350]

Grog:

A fence is a start. Reference my earlier post. Why should a new hire AWA pilot not bear any furlough burden when someone who started 15 years earlier gets it first? Again, the seniority is everything.

They will only be "my boys" for the next week. Then it is bye bye for me. But I will never believe that these East pilots that you Westies all despise got a fair shake. They gave up more than you had and they are still standing and fighting for what they believe to be right. You don't have to like it, but you should respect it.

You will get your shiny contract, maybe a new union, and hopefully you won't run into the potholes I have.

A350

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I think that fences would calm the east group down. Simply have a fence that for every East Captain that retires an east F/O upgrades, same with the AWA guys. New positions added goes 50/50.

East has around 700 to 800 Capts. retiring in the next five years or so, My feeling is that most of the problems that the East guys have is that as it stands now with no fence, about 80% of the above retirements would go to AWA pilots.

Every one of the East pilots that I know are not out to take away AWA Captain slots from AWA F/O's. They just want the ability to benefit from the attrition that East brought into the airline.

The MEC could have done it better for sure.....but in the end I personally think that a fence as mentioned above is the only thing that will bring the two groups together. Letting the West F/o's who are 10 to 20 years younger and much less experienced take the 80% of the East Capt retirements is a sure recipe for destruction of the entire airline. As long as that is the plan I cannot see the east guys with 20 years invested in the airline giving one inch without a fight.

East rank and file guys are practical, build a fence to protect the attrition that they brought to the table and you will be amazed how fast they join ranks with AWA to fight for a joint contract.

 

[TWA Dude]

You think it is fair that a guy hired in 1999 will never face furlough while a guy hired in 1988 can lose his job the next industry downturn?

What you or I think is immaterial. The arbitrator we mutually agreed to abide by made his decision. Why do you still wish to argue this?

Not one AWA pilot will ever lose his job.

HA! So you can promise that there will never be any furloughs?

You think you deserve it?

This reveals one of the primary flaws in your thinking. We all deserve to be 747 captains but that ain't gonna happen. Nicolau didn't say anything about what anybody deserved. His ruling was dispassionate, based on the facts, and speaks for itself.

I know better than to tell you to get over it. You'll do that on your own terms when you're ready. Right now all you you're succeeding in doing is delaying the inevitable. Remember how exciting it was for you when the ALPA EC voted 12-1 in favor of the resolution to consider your request to overturn the Award? Their well-meaning gesture to give you guys a chance to cool down blew up in their face. You've lost every battle thus far and if you're pinning all your hopes on the courts you might as well be buying bridges in Baghdad. USAPA is another pipe-dream and if successful will not solve anything.

 

[TWA Dude]

Several of you are talking about fences and how they'll solve everything. As I've written before, fences don't save anybody from furlough. The pain of any future furloughs should be shared. Nicolau's dovetail integration satifies this concept nicely.

 

[weasel_lips]

Several of you are talking about fences and how they'll solve everything. As I've written before, fences don't save anybody from furlough. The pain of any future furloughs should be shared. Nicolau's dovetail integration satifies this concept nicely.

Solve everything is a bit strong.

I think it will make a joint contract possible; I don't think it will solve everything.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Several of you are talking about fences and how they'll solve everything. As I've written before, fences don't save anybody from furlough. The pain of any future furloughs should be shared. Nicolau's dovetail integration satifies this concept nicely.

According to my seniority list there are 1800 USAirways guys hired from 1988 to 2000 now junior to AWA pilots hired in 2004. I would say that is a pretty good pad to ensure no AWA guys ever gets furloughed!

 

[A350]

TWA:

I can't promise there won't be a furlough....but I can guarantee that the airline won't survive a furlough that gets to an AWA pilot the way the seniority integration went.

I am over it as I will no longer be on the list. Most of the reason for not returning is the seniority integration. I lost more than I can ever regain by returning.

The East pilots, by delaying the joint contract and hoping for USAPA are only doing one thing....delaying the seniority itegration. Every East pilot that upgrades is a success story in keeping the attrition where it belongs. It is in effect, a fence.

The USAPA drive is sending ALPA a message. They ignore their membership at their peril. Don't think this is the end of these mergers and the tricky notion of putting pilot seniority lists together. It is the beginning. ALPA needs to put a process together that they take responsibility for, not giving it to a third party and then acting like it isn't their fault when it goes awry.

A350

 

[weasel_lips]

I took recall. I am back on the line.

I have not spoken with a single crewmember that will vote yes on a joint agreement as it stands.

It is going to be separate operations forever, unless someone starts talking about fences or something to give these guys those upgrades they have been waiting 20 yrs for.

That is the reality of the situation.