New ALPA Message to USAirways Pilots pt 3

[grog_sit_reserv]

I want a new contract. Say what you want 350. But when this merger started I was kinda happy. I thought we as a combined group at a healthy airline could do something right by the profession again.

I thought maybe a strong group of guys out East, who have been able to negotiate industry leading contracts could use their experience to lead the way. That a newly emerged USAir could be strong, that its pilots could unite and get something done.

Instead it turns out you're a bunch of sniveling babies. You focus on one issue and one issue only. DOH. Nice job. You didn't spend one minute negotiating about the list with the west. DOH, DOH. Take it to binding arbitration, DOH, DOH, the arbitrator says you need to talk this out on many occasions, DOH, DOH. You lose your case in arbitration.

Now you drag your heals on everything. Including a new contract because you can't focus on anything else but a lost cause.

You can say what you want, it is a free country. I think you are being quite untruthful with yourself if you believe any of the stuff you say

If I believe everything you say, then aviation is a bigger lost cause than ever. We'll never get a new contract because you guys can't wrap your mind around the fact that liquidation meant all the USAir pilots would have been on permanent furlough from number 1 to number ??? I don't know because your list was already full of guys who had resigned, medicaled out or were plain old deceased that the actual number of East pilots may never be known.

A350 Tell your boys to negotiate a fence or something. And not just tuck their heads down a hole and refuse to talk about the issue.

Grog

 

[weasel_lips]

I think a fence would do the trick (20yr). Then maybe we could get moving towards working together. I know most Westies would be against a fence, but it is really the only hope of getting a joint contract. Otherwise, we will just operate separately, which in effect is a fence unto itself. So, why not do it with a joint agreement?

 

[A350]

Grog:

A fence is a start. Reference my earlier post. Why should a new hire AWA pilot not bear any furlough burden when someone who started 15 years earlier gets it first? Again, the seniority is everything.

They will only be "my boys" for the next week. Then it is bye bye for me. But I will never believe that these East pilots that you Westies all despise got a fair shake. They gave up more than you had and they are still standing and fighting for what they believe to be right. You don't have to like it, but you should respect it.

You will get your shiny contract, maybe a new union, and hopefully you won't run into the potholes I have.

A350

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I think that fences would calm the east group down. Simply have a fence that for every East Captain that retires an east F/O upgrades, same with the AWA guys. New positions added goes 50/50.

East has around 700 to 800 Capts. retiring in the next five years or so, My feeling is that most of the problems that the East guys have is that as it stands now with no fence, about 80% of the above retirements would go to AWA pilots.

Every one of the East pilots that I know are not out to take away AWA Captain slots from AWA F/O's. They just want the ability to benefit from the attrition that East brought into the airline.

The MEC could have done it better for sure.....but in the end I personally think that a fence as mentioned above is the only thing that will bring the two groups together. Letting the West F/o's who are 10 to 20 years younger and much less experienced take the 80% of the East Capt retirements is a sure recipe for destruction of the entire airline. As long as that is the plan I cannot see the east guys with 20 years invested in the airline giving one inch without a fight.

East rank and file guys are practical, build a fence to protect the attrition that they brought to the table and you will be amazed how fast they join ranks with AWA to fight for a joint contract.

 

[TWA Dude]

You think it is fair that a guy hired in 1999 will never face furlough while a guy hired in 1988 can lose his job the next industry downturn?

What you or I think is immaterial. The arbitrator we mutually agreed to abide by made his decision. Why do you still wish to argue this?

Not one AWA pilot will ever lose his job.

HA! So you can promise that there will never be any furloughs?

You think you deserve it?

This reveals one of the primary flaws in your thinking. We all deserve to be 747 captains but that ain't gonna happen. Nicolau didn't say anything about what anybody deserved. His ruling was dispassionate, based on the facts, and speaks for itself.

I know better than to tell you to get over it. You'll do that on your own terms when you're ready. Right now all you you're succeeding in doing is delaying the inevitable. Remember how exciting it was for you when the ALPA EC voted 12-1 in favor of the resolution to consider your request to overturn the Award? Their well-meaning gesture to give you guys a chance to cool down blew up in their face. You've lost every battle thus far and if you're pinning all your hopes on the courts you might as well be buying bridges in Baghdad. USAPA is another pipe-dream and if successful will not solve anything.

 

[TWA Dude]

Several of you are talking about fences and how they'll solve everything. As I've written before, fences don't save anybody from furlough. The pain of any future furloughs should be shared. Nicolau's dovetail integration satifies this concept nicely.

 

[weasel_lips]

Several of you are talking about fences and how they'll solve everything. As I've written before, fences don't save anybody from furlough. The pain of any future furloughs should be shared. Nicolau's dovetail integration satifies this concept nicely.

Solve everything is a bit strong.

I think it will make a joint contract possible; I don't think it will solve everything.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Several of you are talking about fences and how they'll solve everything. As I've written before, fences don't save anybody from furlough. The pain of any future furloughs should be shared. Nicolau's dovetail integration satifies this concept nicely.

According to my seniority list there are 1800 USAirways guys hired from 1988 to 2000 now junior to AWA pilots hired in 2004. I would say that is a pretty good pad to ensure no AWA guys ever gets furloughed!

 

[A350]

TWA:

I can't promise there won't be a furlough....but I can guarantee that the airline won't survive a furlough that gets to an AWA pilot the way the seniority integration went.

I am over it as I will no longer be on the list. Most of the reason for not returning is the seniority integration. I lost more than I can ever regain by returning.

The East pilots, by delaying the joint contract and hoping for USAPA are only doing one thing....delaying the seniority itegration. Every East pilot that upgrades is a success story in keeping the attrition where it belongs. It is in effect, a fence.

The USAPA drive is sending ALPA a message. They ignore their membership at their peril. Don't think this is the end of these mergers and the tricky notion of putting pilot seniority lists together. It is the beginning. ALPA needs to put a process together that they take responsibility for, not giving it to a third party and then acting like it isn't their fault when it goes awry.

A350

 

[weasel_lips]

I took recall. I am back on the line.

I have not spoken with a single crewmember that will vote yes on a joint agreement as it stands.

It is going to be separate operations forever, unless someone starts talking about fences or something to give these guys those upgrades they have been waiting 20 yrs for.

That is the reality of the situation.

 

[UALjan15]

Grog:

USAir was one of the top places to work in 1987 and with the exception of the furlough in 1990 that lasted 7 years, was head and shoulders above AWA. And it was still head and shoulders above AWA after the first bankruptcy. Hell, we still had a pension.
A350

350:

Thanks for the history lesson. The thing about mergers is that history doesn't get you anything. It merely shapes what you bring to the table. In AAA's case, 15 years of previous history whittled your list down to the point where the junior man was a 1988 hire, with nearly 2000 on furlough. Not a pretty picture.

In AWA's case, history was a little kinder, but not much. Due to poor management throughout the 90s, AWA pilots never got that industry standard contract or legacy-caliber pension. As such, their ranks were pilfered for years as pilots built experience and moved on to greener pastures. Finally, under Parker, the airline gained a little traction after 9/11, hired a lot of pilots, and got strong enough to broker a deal for AAA.

Quite honestly, neither of these airlines have been a great choice for pilots for the past 15 years. Neither pilot group has the right to a "superiority complex," although one of them clearly has one. We all were granted a tremendous opportunity with the merger. AWA gained an entire east coast system with an international operation to boot--something that we should have done one our own like SWA did, but failed to. AAA gained a stay of certain execution, a good west coast system, and a (finally) good management team.

With a couple of years of solid profits, we were poised for long-term success, as long as we could combine seniority lists and contracts successfully. We all know how that is going.

As you allude to several times in your post, East F/Os and furloughees with almost 20 years longevity just can't mentally accept being at the bottom of the East seniority list, and therefore don't see themselves as seniority equals with AWA's 2004/2005 hires. A neutral arbitrator saw things differently.

Right now I feel like we're negotiating with a cult. AAA sees things through their own unique goggles. Logic and reason do not apply. They have a mantra that they chant in trance-like fashion (DOH...DOH....DOH!) And finally, they have all charged their glasses with toxic koolaid (USAPA), and appear ready to drink in unison if the rest of the world doesn't come around to their agenda.

Good luck to all of this. I wish I could think of an example of a cult showdown that ended happily, but nothing is coming to mind.

 

[Guppiedriver]

According to my seniority list there are 1800 USAirways guys hired from 1988 to 2000 now junior to AWA pilots hired in 2004. I would say that is a pretty good pad to ensure no AWA guys ever gets furloughed!

What you so conveniently forgot to mention, is that only 300 or so furloughee's have accepted recall.

 

[TWA Dude]

I am over it as I will no longer be on the list. Most of the reason for not returning is the seniority integration. I lost more than I can ever regain by returning.

What you lost was due to USAirways' bankruptcy; not Nicolau's decision.

The East pilots, by delaying the joint contract and hoping for USAPA are only doing one thing....delaying the seniority itegration. Every East pilot that upgrades is a success story in keeping the attrition where it belongs. It is in effect, a fence.

This is true and you should be embarrased to admit it. Their gain is our loss. If it were up to me there would be punitive action. For all we know, there will be.

The USAPA drive is sending ALPA a message. They ignore their membership at their peril.

If you actually believe this is the message being received you are not in touch with outsider's views of this situation. Of course, this has been the AAA's problem from the beginning: a skewed view of reality. Just because the AAA pilots really want something doesn't mean ALPA National can provide it, especially when it's unreasonable. Nobody is being ignored.

Don't think this is the end of these mergers and the tricky notion of putting pilot seniority lists together. It is the beginning. ALPA needs to put a process together that they take responsibility for, not giving it to a third party and then acting like it isn't their fault when it goes awry.

You're kidding, right? It wouldn't have gone to arbitration if the two sides had been able to agree. Exactly what process could force two sides to agree? And funny how you weren't complaining about the arbitration process before Nicolau left to make his decision.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Weasel lips... Welcome back.

Tell your JNC/MEC to come and negotiate a fence if that's what'll get things done. Hiding will not make the merger go away. Come to the table and let's find a solution.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

What you so conveniently forgot to mention, is that only 300 or so furloughee's have accepted recall.

Closer to 500 once the j4j guys are back, final numbers are not in yet. However you cut it there are a LOT of East guys below the most junior AWA guy, still a hefty furlough pad.

The fence senario makes the most sense. AWA keeps their seniority progression as does Airways. If the airline grows the fences will become a moot point as it did with the Allegheny/Mohawk merger. If it remains the same size each group gets the benefit of their respective Captain retirements. Each group would also share in any furloughs that came along.

I still think that is the only way these two pilot groups will ever be able to work together. In the end it all comes down to the rank and file pilot, regardless of what the MEC's have done. As it stands I cannot find a single airways guy that will vote for any agreement that gives 80% of those upcoming 700 to 800 East Captain retirements to west F/O's who were hired 15 to 20 years after them.

Once you get past the 1990 east DOH's it basically becomes a wash between the two groups and normal seniority progression for the most part would continue for them as if the merger never took place. the 99 to 2000 East hires which numbered 1149 are down to 300 or so and that is just about on par with what AWA hired during that period.

For full disclosure, I fall in the 99 to 2000 1149. I have no problem with the NIC award as long as the fences protect the airways retirements. I would like to make Captain again before retirement sure, but I have flown everything from a 747 down to a regional turboprop in my career and been Capt. on 2 different 121 birds and several corprate jets so I have no urge to steal a Capt seat from some AWA f/o either......let both of us benefit from our respective pilot retirements and this problem goes away pretty fast.