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New AirTran TA Thread

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AFcitrus said:
You are correct about the one day = 4 hr min. But you don't get a minimum of 4.5 hrs/day on multiple day trips.

Here's the way I read it.
3-day trip:
Day 1 = 8 hrs
Day 2 = 1.5 hrs
Day 3 = 4 hours

Currently you would get paid 16 hours of pay.
This TA would pay you 13.5 hours of pay. It's a legal trip because it averages 4.5 hours/day. 13.5hrs/3days=4.5 hrs/day

You just lost 2.5 hours of pay in three days. They could conceivably do that 5 times/month and you now have lost 12.5 hours of pay/month over current contract.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Heyas Citrus,

I have no dog in this hunt, but at NWA we gave up the minimum day, and it destroyed the trip construction process. Management builds most trips now with 2 hard fly days to 8 hours, and then you cool your heels in the hotel somewhere for 30 hours waiting to fly 2-3 legs on the last day and get home late evening.

The reason? They want the blockholders on ready reserve at the hotel, so they can whittle down staffing on the real reserves. In essence, they get a free day of reserve out of you.

DO NOT listen to anyone who says "awww, the company won't do this" or "company won't the use langauge that way" or "it wouldn't be in the company's best interest to do that".... BUELL********************E!

Every one of the excuses the NWA pilot group got like that from the negotiating commitee, such as on scope, deadhead, sick pay and so on, the company is now driving 747s (or RJs) through the loopholes.

If your company asked for langauge a specific way or objected to specific langauge to prevent something YOU CAN BET THEY HAVE A REASON.

'nuff said...Good luck, guys!

Nu
 
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RIDETHELIGHTING said:
two senior CA saying how come the Union is not here to sell this thing to get the yes vote. I wanted to kick some A$$!!
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Some of those senior captains are the greediest bunch of *&^% out there, they only care about themself and thats it, the unions "Alpa or otherwise" work very hard to please them, they don't care about the bottom guys.

When we got furloughed our "senior Captains" voted against Alpa's plan to help the furloughed guys, while they were proud to pickup all the extra JA pay while their Alpa brothers and sisters were out on the street. Its amazing to see a guy who makes 150K a year not tipping the van driver, its ridicules.

So yeah, be careful with those senior guys.

Ok, rant over, carry on
 
FlyWolf said:
Some of those senior captains are the greediest bunch of *&^% out there, they only care about themself and thats it, the unions "Alpa or otherwise" work very hard to please them, they don't care about the bottom guys.

When we got furloughed our "senior Captains" voted against Alpa's plan to help the furloughed guys, while they were proud to pickup all the extra JA pay while their Alpa brothers and sisters were out on the street. Its amazing to see a guy who makes 150K a year not tipping the van driver, its ridicules.

So yeah, be careful with those senior guys.

Ok, rant over, carry on
Click to expand...

I've been here 8 years....what furloughed guys are you talking about? This airline is chock full of re-treads from other carriers. I think that the vague "senior captain" reference is unfair. I love how that attitude changes once you have been here awhile. The bulk of the senior greedy selfish guys I know are voting no. This TA is a turd. Everyone can see that. Before you continue with the generalizations check the senority list for the pre 9/11 crew you ass clown. We are the ones that that have sucked it up for a long time prior to you gracing us with your presence insisting on industry leading compensation.

I would rather continue to work under the exsiting agreement until we get a TA thats more agreeable. That includes not scewing the new guy. Care to take a guess at how many guys here that are on airline number X?

I'm for modest, steady growth. Maybe this is a wake up call to the pilot group? Where are your dues going? Allen Philpot is no longer current, Skipper Hyle could not find the C-con if he HAD to, Howard Hobday=first airline job....tons of well qualified guys in the pilot group that COULD have contributed to the process but were held at arms length. How much is your NPA lawyer getting paid? and for what? 1400 pilots on the property and Allen Philpot allowed Brad Dunlap, forced to step down via an audit of the NPA for questionable billing practices, viewing of porn during BOD meetings, etc...with women present... yet Brad is the BEST pick for head of the merger committee?

No wonder the have once again served up a turd.
 
critter,

i believe he is speaking about being furloughed from Midwest.
 
Critter717 said:
I've been here 8 years....what furloughed guys are you talking about? This airline is chock full of re-treads from other carriers. I think that the vague "senior captain" reference is unfair. I love how that attitude changes once you have been here awhile. The bulk of the senior greedy selfish guys I know are voting no. This TA is a turd. Everyone can see that. Before you continue with the generalizations check the senority list for the pre 9/11 crew you ass clown. We are the ones that that have sucked it up for a long time prior to you gracing us with your presence insisting on industry leading compensation.

I would rather continue to work under the exsiting agreement until we get a TA thats more agreeable. That includes not scewing the new guy. Care to take a guess at how many guys here that are on airline number X?

I'm for modest, steady growth. Maybe this is a wake up call to the pilot group? Where are your dues going? Allen Philpot is no longer current, Skipper Hyle could not find the C-con if he HAD to, Howard Hobday=first airline job....tons of well qualified guys in the pilot group that COULD have contributed to the process but were held at arms length. How much is your NPA lawyer getting paid? and for what? 1400 pilots on the property and Allen Philpot allowed Brad Dunlap, forced to step down via an audit of the NPA for questionable billing practices, viewing of porn during BOD meetings, etc...with women present... yet Brad is the BEST pick for head of the merger committee?

No wonder the have once again served up a turd.
Click to expand...

Notice the "SOME" senior captains in my post, plus yeah I was talking about Midex and not Airtran. I do hope for your sake that you turn this TA down with a 90% or better number. Peace
 
Who wrote this contract? In the compensation section Section 3-2-b: Base pay for Large Narrowbody (LNB) aircraft will be SNB hourly rates plus thirteen(13) percent. LNB aircraft include: B-727, B-737 (-400,-900), B-757, and A-321. Folks the B-737-400 is smaller than the B-737-800. The only US carriers that fly the B-737-400 are US Airways and Alaska Airlines. Those aircraft seat from 140-149 seats. The 737-800 can seat 175 in single class and 165 in two class configuration.
Small Narrowbody aircraft (SNB) include: B-737(-100,-200,-300,-500,-600,-700,-800), DC-9(all models), A-318, A319,A-320,F-100, and BA-146.
These guys are trying to get this thing through so bad that they just keep messing up language like this. The 737-400 is a smaller airplane than the 737-800. The 737-800 is larger than the 727. What gives? I can pick this thing apart all night.
 
Critter717 said:
Skipper Hyle ...... Howard Hobday=first airline job....tons of well qualified guys in the pilot group that COULD have contributed to the process but were held at arms length.
Click to expand...

Close friends at their old USAF unit. Enough said?
 
By the way mr and ms reserve, here is what you can expect under the new TA: lets say you are on the last day of a 4 day trip assigned on reserve. The 4th day has one leg back to domicile. After you land and call scheduling, they tell you that you need to sit ready reserve. While sitting ready reserve they find another trip for you that overnights in another city. Now I can move your day off, so now you will have to fly into your day off or perhaps two days off to work with scheduling after they fumbled with the reserves. These schedulers mismanage the current reserves under the current contract, now we want to give them more leeway to mess with the reserves? Oh yea Mr FO you will probable upgrade under this new TA and be subjected to these horrible reserve rules, so you better think twice about giving into this mess. New hires, the hourly pay currently is $42.75. Under the new TA, AirTran will lead the industry as being the only airline that will allow management to set the starting pay rates according to market conditions, not to go lower than $38.50. By the way, you have to pay for lodging while in initial training! This is deplorable! I'm embarrassed by this junk! We will set a new low in this industry with this mess. But AP and the NC say this isn't concessionary. Hmmm!
 
one problem that the union and company will have getting this turd passed is this...no one on reserve or close to upgrade will vote this in...that plus at least half of this list now is made up of commuter guys and guys that were furloughed from others carriers and took it in the shorts and guys like that are not gonna put up with this crap any longer...

nice try bod and nc....start over...

oh and any midwest pilot better hope this thing gets flushed.....
 
the reserve lines that have movable days off are voluntary. Don't bid it unless you want it. If you do bid it, you receive 12 days off min.

RV
 
twepilot said:
the reserve lines that have movable days off are voluntary. Don't bid it unless you want it. If you do bid it, you receive 12 days off min.

RV
Click to expand...

Are you kidding, who would bid for that kind of abuse for one extra day off? I'm guessing you are a line holder?
 
twepilot said:
the reserve lines that have movable days off are voluntary. Don't bid it unless you want it. If you do bid it, you receive 12 days off min.

RV
Click to expand...

Wrong. Read the TA. Where does it say that all reserve lines can't have moveable days? If you can show me I will stand corrected.

d. Reserve Line holders:
1) All reserve lines will contain at least two (2) blocks of days off containing three (3) consecutive days off.
2) Reserve Pilots will receive not less then ten (10) calendar days off in a thirty (30) day bid period, or eleven (11) calendar days off in a thirty-one (31) day bid period
3) The Company may convert reserves to a system of movable days off as defined in 14.d.4). below. Each Reserve Pilot will then receive not less than twelve (12) calendar days off in that bid period.
a) Should the Company make this conversion, the Association will meet with the Company after three (3) full bid periods to evaluate the effectiveness of the new system. Either party may discontinue this system with written notice to the other.
b) With said notice, the Company will return to the day off limits set in 14.d.2. within three (3) full bid periods.
4) Reserve Lines with Movable Days Off (R-MDO):
a) R-MDO holders will receive a minimum of twelve (12) days off each bid period. At least two (2) of the day off blocks shall be three (3) consecutive days.
b) Crew Scheduling may move a R-MDO Pilot’s days off in two (2) ways:
(1)Reserve Period Adjustment
(a)Three (3) or more calendar days prior to the first day affected, one (1) or two (2) consecutive days off may be moved in either direction to receive a reserve TAP assignment. Once moved, those days off may no longer be adjusted utilizing the MDO method.
(b)The new reserve TAP shall be the same type as the TAP removed and will comply with F.11.a.
(2)Flight assignment
(a)Flying may be assigned to a R-MDO that spans into his day(s) off.
(b)The assignment may span no more than two (2) current calendar days off in either direction.
(c)The assignment must occur within the three (3) day assignment window provided that:
(i)The notification is made during a TAP or an existing duty period.
(ii)Such flying assignment must be scheduled to start no later than the last calendar day of the current block of reserve days, or scheduled to arrive no earlier than the first day of a block of reserve days.
5) Movable days off may not result in a R-MDO Pilot receiving a single calendar day off.
6) After the Final Schedule Award, a R-MDO Pilot may designate up to two (2) of his blocks of days off as “golden days off” (GDO) which the Company may not move, except by mutual consent between the Pilot and the Company, after the Final Schedule Award. GDO’s will not apply if the Pilot is awarded a move-up line.
7) Crew Scheduling may move a R-MDO’s days off only when consistent with need to protect reserve availability.
 
Golden days off?!? More like a Golden Shower from scheduling for the rest of the month.......
 
Like I've said, if this is voted down with a large bang (+80%) we can have some push at the table, if this goes marginal (55%) or so this could look like the good TA. If it dies we have to supprt the BoD/NC who ever theyare in the Picketing etc, if not we are screwged because the ability to hold the company fast is lost. I would bet the BoD is supporting this because they feel the pilot group may not be up for the fight it would take to gain a stronger contract. Prove them wrong if you can.

So other than to vote NO, do you guys have any REAL ideas on how to fix the TA.
 
XRMEFLYER said:
Go back to jerkin it in your mom's basement troll. The grown ups are trying to have a conversation here.
Click to expand...

Grown ups don't say "Jerkin it in your mom's basement troll."

Say what you want but companies just aren't making enough money to afford raises yet. If pilots get a raise then everyone else is going to want one. I highly doubt you guys can afford it. How much did you g uys make last year? Try adding in a raise and those profits turn to a loss.

BTW I never said yuou shouldn't get a raise but am trying to look at the reality of the industry. That reality just doesn't support it.
 
BFL370 said:
Like I've said, if this is voted down with a large bang (+80%) we can have some push at the table, if this goes marginal (55%) or so this could look like the good TA. If it dies we have to supprt the BoD/NC who ever theyare in the Picketing etc, if not we are screwged because the ability to hold the company fast is lost. I would bet the BoD is supporting this because they feel the pilot group may not be up for the fight it would take to gain a stronger contract. Prove them wrong if you can.

So other than to vote NO, do you guys have any REAL ideas on how to fix the TA.
Click to expand...
WRONG! The BODs did the right thing sending this to the pilots. Now the whole pilot group can see what our negotiating committee and the company have been up to the last couple of years. If the board had voted this down, then the company would have started with the propaganda letters all over again telling us how the board didn't give us a chance to decide for ourselves. Now that the pilot group will have an opportunity to see what the Negotiating committee has come up with, the whole pilot group can decide for themselves. If this is voted down by a large margin, the company can't say the board voted down a good contract and the pilots didn't have a chance to decide for themselves. Been there seen this before, MR! The board did exactly what it was supposed to do....send it to the body and let them decide!

Now the negotiating team is another matter all by itself. Depending on how the vote goes. It will either be a vote of no confidence in the NC with a large turn out and a overwhelming NO or support with a close vote! After this thing is hopefully shot down, there will be some ideas brought forward, I for one will be first at the table. But this TA is not good enough for this pilot group and sets a dangerous precedence going forward!
 
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instructordude said:
Grown ups don't say "Jerkin it in your mom's basement troll."

Say what you want but companies just aren't making enough money to afford raises yet. If pilots get a raise then everyone else is going to want one. I highly doubt you guys can afford it. How much did you g uys make last year? Try adding in a raise and those profits turn to a loss.

BTW I never said yuou shouldn't get a raise but am trying to look at the reality of the industry. That reality just doesn't support it.
Click to expand...
Here's another reality for you dude. Our management is among the highest compensated in this business. We are poised to make some serious coin in the coming years. I like hopefully most others here do not wish to skin the sheep, merely to join Joe and his minions in fleecing it.
 
instructordude said:
I think we're all in for paycuts unfortunately. Look at the legacies. Now it is the LCC's. Time to deal with reality and the likely paycuts ahead.:mad:
Click to expand...
Sir, you don't understand what is going on! We have to be willing to fight for our careers and preserve our profession. If you are a RJ driver, be thankful. That is part of the problem with this industry. Jets should be flown by mainline at RATES the market can sustain. Keep believing that nonsense you keep printing and you will forever be flying a RJ at wages just above minimum wage. If that is what you think of your profession, then please do us all a favor and GET OUT! We need people in this profession that will protect it and are willing to fight for what they have earned. When the men and women at UNITED, DELTA, AND US AIRWAYS lost their pensions, unions all over this country should have stood up and fought for what was by law supposed to be funded, but was stolen for the sake of executive bonus'. YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT! Americans, wake up and start fighting for what you worked so hard for and don't let a soul take it away from you!
 
saving my money for my strike fund!....gonna start drinking ol swill I guess !
 
BFL370 said:
So other than to vote NO, do you guys have any REAL ideas on how to fix the TA.
Click to expand...

How about recalling the BOD and getting some new negotiators that actually represent the rest of the 80% of the group? Three years at 100 hours a month of pay for this garbage? LOL, we've been getting ripped off whether if it passes or not! We should have just put the money in to the strike fund. The TA is seriously so bad that I have to think(and hope) that maybe this is all a negotiating technique, and that the overwhelming F*CK NO vote will be more meaningful than anything else. However, after the holiday raping, age 65 crap, etc. even if we vote no, I have no confidence that they will actually be honest about the result. Who's to stop them from saying, " Oh yeah, it passed 65/35"? We'll get stuck with this turd even though we won't be able to find anyone who actually voted for it. How can anyone sit there with a straight face and say this isn't a concessionary contract? That's just an insult and a slap in the face, and not from the company, but from "one of us".

VOTE NO!
 

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