New AGE limit discussion

[pilotyip]

Dont act like a troll, wont be called a troll-
That's another problem yip- old guys of course want more testing-
I don't trust that the FAA would be all that reasonable-

and you don't want testing, it could be inconvient to some under 60 guys, trolling works both ways, when someone posts something byou like it is because they are troll. But I have never used the word. BTW We have almost 5 years of +60 data, not to mention years of 135 Scheduled Commuter to draw upon.

 

[Flopgut]

If the majors start to hire hotties like we have the old fats will fight to death to stay.

There wife number 5 would be younger than there grand kids

Hi. Remember me? I'm the one who helped you get "Baron" spelled right in your profile? I understand very little of what you post. Are you claiming that where you work there are "hotties"?

 

[Mamma]

If the majors start to hire hotties like we have the old fats will fight to death to stay.

There wife number 5 would be younger than there grand kids

Wow. You need some remedial English courses.

 

[Flopgut]

Wave: You have the patience of Job. Yip: I'm curious, have you ever owned an airplane? I remember you said you had your own business. Any employees? I've had two airplanes. I bought my first one when I was real junior and felt like I wouldn't be PIC again for a long time. Now, I didn't buy it for that reason alone, but I did enjoy climbing in the left seat and thinking "this is indeed my seat". Even at that, I never doubted that someone else would sit there someday. Your "get out of my seat" mantra is nuts my friend!! These guys don't own that seat.

 

[outerlimits]

Wow. You need some remedial English courses.

I need a lot things gramps.

 

[Mamma]

I need a lot things gramps.

Once again, you fail. Not a gramps or geezer for another 20+ years.

 

[flyboyike]

Your "get out of my seat" mantra is nuts my friend!! These guys don't own that seat.

It's not nuts, it's age-related dementia. Oh, sorry, I was recently told I needed to be more respectful of my elders, my bad.

 

[waveflyer]

Outerlimits- it might be your schtick, but just in case you're not trying to undermine your act:

http://www.wisc-online.com/ViewObject.aspx?ID=ESL1402
"Using "they're", "there", and "their" correctly.

Study up youngster!

Oh, and sometimes "to" has two "o's"
http://www.totootwo.com/

 

[tankerhead]

Et tu, wavey?

Or is it to....hmmm, screw it.

 

[pilotyip]

Wave: You have the patience of Job. Yip.........Your "get out of my seat" mantra is nuts my friend!! These guys don't own that seat.

Of course I own my own airplane, doesn't everybody? and yes I had my own company, 20 employees, $3.5M in sales, what does that to do with anything?

As far as the "Get out of my seat", of course you do not own it, but your rights to it are pretty clear cut via the union seniority list. Old guys gets kicked out, you move up to that seat.

BTW Wave patience? If patience is defined by righteous indignation and personal attacks, then it may be true

 

[cldsfr79]

I love the guys that state "it's all about the young guys saying get out of my seat". Well, for all of you in the left seat, somebody got out of "your seat" so you could upgrade and you had an age 60 rule to help you in your career. Now that your time is up, you are looking for over time in the game of life and your also telling everyone else around you how greedy they are for asking you to leave.

But at least there is an age limit in part 121. Be it 65 or if they push it to 67 or what ever.

In the fractionals, where I live, it is fly til you die.

And where I'm at we have lost 5 guys (to death) in the last few months. I'm sorry if I sound callus, but it moved me up the list. A. I didn't know them and B. since guys wont retire, and the company is done growing, death is the only way I make it up the list.

Sorry.

 

[Flopgut]

Of course I own my own airplane, doesn't everybody? and yes I had my own company, 20 employees, $3.5M in sales, what does that to do with anything?

As far as the "Get out of my seat", of course you do not own it, but your rights to it are pretty clear cut via the union seniority list. Old guys gets kicked out, you move up to that seat.

BTW Wave patience? If patience is defined by righteous indignation and personal attacks, then it may be true

Regarding employees: Did you ever have two that could not get along? And one of those two come to you and want the other fired because they had somehow formulated the idea that they were more important than the other? I had that happen; I fired both of them and went back to doing everything myself. It was the older more experienced guy that wanted the other fired and I could not believe how entitlied the guy acted. All I did was hire them in the same manner, I didn't adopt them. I needed them equally, so to get rid of one was the same as both. (This was a very small mx shop and they were both better off elsewhere. They found other A&P jobs quickly)

I'm reminded of that experience as I look at things today. Here we are at the end of a 5 year boost the old guys were just so sure they were entitled to, and they still can't bow out with any dignity. My employer has been around 80 years, thousands have come before them and many thousands will come after them. Yet, they feel like they "own" the place?!

As far as owning an airplane: I think it's a valuable experience as a pilot to own an airplane. Find one, inspect it, insure it, register it, hangar it, buy the fuel for it, get trained in it, have it annualed etc, etc. Or even go out and put one on 135. Have a certificate, get the manuals, be an air carrier and corporation. Have shareholders and officers. If one does all that, THEN its "their" seat. Short of that, the "get out of my seat" mantra is completely foolish. Especially considering they hijacked rightful seniority progression to get where they are. These guys don't "own" a seat. They own a regulation.[Fair treatment for experienced pilots] A regulation written by a crooked politician and a marginal union leader that was perhaps the most greedy act of entitlement in our history.

 

[CapnVegetto]

A more elegant solution would be to scrap the seniority system altogether, which is the biggest problem that airline pilots have today.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

A more elegant solution would be to scrap the seniority system altogether, which is the biggest problem that airline pilots have today.

Although I do agree that the seniority system has its flaws, it is still the best system to accommodate all kinds of personalities and skill levels, in the contract world for example where there is no seniority system per say, at least not as it is in the US, you see some people that thrive in that environment and progress quickly, but individuals that are introverted or not necessarily type A people in the cockpit, tend to struggle a lot more in this type of system and I think is unfair sometimes because the fact that you are the quiet type, doesn't mean you can't make a good pilot.

 

[Flopgut]

Although I do agree that the seniority system has its flaws, it is still the best system to accommodate all kinds of personalities and skill levels.

Uh, is that the business we are in, or should be in? Accomodating the very old and the obtuse/introverted as a firstmost goal? Is that how companies should be run?

Example: Flight Attendants. The senior ones at my airline are very old (past normal retirement age), most don't take care of their appearance anymore, and their personalities are horrible. Now, seniority is working GREAT for them, but how's that going to ultimately affect the business? Soon, we won't be able to sell against airlines in your part of the world for the simple fact no customer wants to put up with our FAs.

 

[outerlimits]

Uh, is that the business we are in, or should be in? Accomodating the very old and the obtuse/introverted as a firstmost goal? Is that how companies should be run?

Example: Flight Attendants. The senior ones at my airline are very old (past normal retirement age), most don't take care of their appearance anymore, and their personalities are horrible. Now, seniority is working GREAT for them, but how's that going to ultimately affect the business? Soon, we won't be able to sell against airlines in your part of the world for the simple fact no customer wants to put up with our FAs.

I never agree with anything flop says, but this I do agree with.

 

[flyboyike]

Uh, is that the business we are in, or should be in? Accomodating the very old and the obtuse/introverted as a firstmost goal? Is that how companies should be run?

Apparently, that is exactly the business we're in. Not only that, but we should also be deeply grateful to the old and decrepit for the fact that they exist and doubly grateful for stealing our career prospects.

Oops, there I go being disrespectful again. Lord, I apologize for that and be with the starving pygmees of New Guinea.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Uh, is that the business we are in, or should be in? Accomodating the very old and the obtuse/introverted as a firstmost goal? Is that how companies should be run?

My point had nothing to do with cabin attendants or age Flopgut, i was just bringing up the fact that in the alternative merit system, there are a lot of opportunities to trump the progress of an individual based on subjective and political reasons than in the current seniority system that is being used here in the US.

 

[Flopgut]

My point had nothing to do with cabin attendants or age Flopgut.

K. Well, where I work, the part of the world actually affected by all this, the part of the world that this thread pertains to, age is the issue. And cabin attendants are a perfect example of how screwed up things are going to get if we keep raising the age and factor ZERO merit into the equation.

If you think merit is flawed, why don't you go into your superior's office and let them know how you feel? Let them know what your thesis is on who should be hired and promoted. Let me know how that goes.

Edit: Forgot, I had a question for you: Do you fly with guys who have had heart attacks? Or have had both knees replaced? I do. You wouldn't pick these guys for ABAs in an evac scenario, but they are flying the airplane. We just had one die in the customs line in SJO.

 

[SIG600]

A more elegant solution would be to scrap the seniority system altogether, which is the biggest problem that airline pilots have today.

Like dumb said, how do you move up? Theoretically everyone should be operating a/c to the same sheet of music, every single time. There is no individualism in the cockpit and everyone's performance should be "standard." So from there how do you decide whose a 747 captain and whose a Mad dog FO?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

K. Well, where I work, the part of the world actually affected by all this, the part of the world that this thread pertains to, age is the issue. And cabin attendants are a perfect example of how screwed up things are going to get if we keep raising the age and factor ZERO merit into the equation.

If you think merit is flawed, why don't you go into your superior's office and let them know how you feel? Let them know what your thesis is on who should be hired and promoted. Let me know how that goes.

We managed to have a very professional exchange in the other thread about our ideas without the need for unnecessary sarcastic remarks, and as a result we came to a lot of common points there, I'm sure we can manage to do it again.

Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages, I have managed to thrive in the contract world and I like the flexibility that it provides since I can take my experience and not have the necessity to start at the bottom, at 47 starting at the bottom is just not an interesting perspective and I too have been a casualty of both the raising of the retirement age and the inevitable bad consequences of the seniority system as we know it in the US, as a result I had to look for other opportunities beyond our borders
But the fact that I have thrived doesn't prevent me from observing how others that I have flown with haven't been able to progress into command positions, some of it is airmanship of course but some of it is plain and simple personality, that is one of the flaws that I find in the merit system, flaws that I have indeed discussed with my superiors when I have tried to advocate for these particular guys that I though were deserving of a second chance (not sure if you wanted to know or is was just an attempt to amp the sarcasm) the seniority system does have an advantage there I believe since the opportunity will be based primarily on the individual's performance, and although it is impossible to not have any politics play a part, under the seniority system there are more constraints.
Now I totally agree with you that the seniority system has some flaws that are in detriment to the airlines, you sited the example of the cabin attendants, some of them quite frankly can't perform the ultimate duty they are there to perform which is the handling of the cabin during an emergency, that is why I think that the medical and physical fitness standards should be brought in line with the rest of the world, there is a level of physical and mental abilities that should be met by both pilots and cabin attendants. Another disadvantage that I see is that employees have no incentive to advance since they just keep getting pay hikes based on time served and not on productivity, that is why you see individuals that have been rampers for 40 years at an airline, there is no incentive for that person to gain an education or expertise within the company because there is no cap on his salary, a manual job should be paid accordingly and opportunities to take classes in other areas of the company should be given so that this person can increase his productivity and his remuneration, that is another flaw on the seniority system in my view

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Edit: Forgot, I had a question for you: Do you fly with guys who have had heart attacks? Or have had both knees replaced? I do. You wouldn't pick these guys for ABAs in an evac scenario, but they are flying the airplane. We just had one die in the customs line in SJO.

The answer is no (outside of the us that is) and the reason is that they will be medically disqualified to perform as both cockpit and cabin crews, which goes to my point of the medical standards should be brought in line with the rest of the world

 

[flyboyike]

...the seniority system does have an advantage there I believe since the opportunity will be based primarily on the individual's performance...

Where and how does a seniority-based system take account of individual performance?

 

[dooork]

Where and how does a seniority-based system take account of individual performance?

By management of course.....how many times did you call in sick?....how many grievances did you file?...what was your on time performance?
0,0,100%....you get to upgrade.

 

[The Boss]

63 year old CAL pilot just dropped dead of a heart attack while going through customs yesterday. Sadly, unless these things happen in flight, they will never be news worthy.

 

[ASADFW7]

Is sad it sad the he died or that he did not die in flight?

 

[Flopgut]

The answer is no (outside of the us that is) and the reason is that they will be medically disqualified to perform as both cockpit and cabin crews, which goes to my point of the medical standards should be brought in line with the rest of the world

I can not help but sound sarcastic I'm afraid and I apologize. I have come to appreciate your input on this issue more than you might guess.

I actually was interested to know if you could approach your boss and advocate for a coworker's potential second chance. My only other insight into that sort of thing was a friend who worked at Cathay and he made it sound as though if you botched command evaluation the first time, that was it. That's interesting, thanks for the insight. Frankly, that sounds perfect to me. Please try to understand, that in the wake of this change to 65, our reality is not just the absense of a merit system. It's as though we only promote the most marginal; The opposite of a merit system. The sharp guys with normal personalities are eager to retire. The guys who are less so end up at the top and they tend to vote away the next pilot's flying opportunities through scope erosion. When age 65 kicks in it should have a dramatic effect. If not, we're toast. Project out our current trajectory, and we will only have pilots over 60 and no one will move up until the next guy dies. Everybody under 60 will be furloughed.

 

[pilotyip]

63 year old CAL pilot just dropped dead of a heart attack while going through customs yesterday. Sadly, unless these things happen in flight, they will never be news worthy.

and your point is? a 47 year old AAL pilot died of one in flight a few years back, should retirement now be 47?

 

[Flopgut]

Is sad it sad the he died or that he did not die in flight?

I knew the guy and had flown with him. He is one of the three pilots who had an on-duty heart attack back in 2007. He was dead on a jetway until a FA put an AED on him. He came back to the line after that for a while, then he had both his knees replaced. Came back again after that and now he's dead walking through customs for a layover.

I want to say this about the guy: Will Rogers never met him!

 

[The Boss]

Is sad it sad the he died or that he did not die in flight?

It is sad that (sudden) deaths that happen outside the cockpit will not be used to debate this topic because they are not kept track of. Does it matter if an airline pilot drops dead of a heart attack if they are in the cockpit or sitting in their Lay-Z-Boy at home.

Point is, it can happen anywhere, anytime and the older you get, the greater the chances are. At a minimum, medical standards should get higher as the pilot gets older.