New AGE limit discussion

[Dumb Pilot]

K. Well, where I work, the part of the world actually affected by all this, the part of the world that this thread pertains to, age is the issue. And cabin attendants are a perfect example of how screwed up things are going to get if we keep raising the age and factor ZERO merit into the equation.

If you think merit is flawed, why don't you go into your superior's office and let them know how you feel? Let them know what your thesis is on who should be hired and promoted. Let me know how that goes.

We managed to have a very professional exchange in the other thread about our ideas without the need for unnecessary sarcastic remarks, and as a result we came to a lot of common points there, I'm sure we can manage to do it again.

Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages, I have managed to thrive in the contract world and I like the flexibility that it provides since I can take my experience and not have the necessity to start at the bottom, at 47 starting at the bottom is just not an interesting perspective and I too have been a casualty of both the raising of the retirement age and the inevitable bad consequences of the seniority system as we know it in the US, as a result I had to look for other opportunities beyond our borders
But the fact that I have thrived doesn't prevent me from observing how others that I have flown with haven't been able to progress into command positions, some of it is airmanship of course but some of it is plain and simple personality, that is one of the flaws that I find in the merit system, flaws that I have indeed discussed with my superiors when I have tried to advocate for these particular guys that I though were deserving of a second chance (not sure if you wanted to know or is was just an attempt to amp the sarcasm) the seniority system does have an advantage there I believe since the opportunity will be based primarily on the individual's performance, and although it is impossible to not have any politics play a part, under the seniority system there are more constraints.
Now I totally agree with you that the seniority system has some flaws that are in detriment to the airlines, you sited the example of the cabin attendants, some of them quite frankly can't perform the ultimate duty they are there to perform which is the handling of the cabin during an emergency, that is why I think that the medical and physical fitness standards should be brought in line with the rest of the world, there is a level of physical and mental abilities that should be met by both pilots and cabin attendants. Another disadvantage that I see is that employees have no incentive to advance since they just keep getting pay hikes based on time served and not on productivity, that is why you see individuals that have been rampers for 40 years at an airline, there is no incentive for that person to gain an education or expertise within the company because there is no cap on his salary, a manual job should be paid accordingly and opportunities to take classes in other areas of the company should be given so that this person can increase his productivity and his remuneration, that is another flaw on the seniority system in my view

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Edit: Forgot, I had a question for you: Do you fly with guys who have had heart attacks? Or have had both knees replaced? I do. You wouldn't pick these guys for ABAs in an evac scenario, but they are flying the airplane. We just had one die in the customs line in SJO.

The answer is no (outside of the us that is) and the reason is that they will be medically disqualified to perform as both cockpit and cabin crews, which goes to my point of the medical standards should be brought in line with the rest of the world

 

[flyboyike]

...the seniority system does have an advantage there I believe since the opportunity will be based primarily on the individual's performance...

Where and how does a seniority-based system take account of individual performance?

 

[dooork]

Where and how does a seniority-based system take account of individual performance?

By management of course.....how many times did you call in sick?....how many grievances did you file?...what was your on time performance?
0,0,100%....you get to upgrade.

 

[The Boss]

63 year old CAL pilot just dropped dead of a heart attack while going through customs yesterday. Sadly, unless these things happen in flight, they will never be news worthy.

 

[ASADFW7]

Is sad it sad the he died or that he did not die in flight?

 

[Flopgut]

The answer is no (outside of the us that is) and the reason is that they will be medically disqualified to perform as both cockpit and cabin crews, which goes to my point of the medical standards should be brought in line with the rest of the world

I can not help but sound sarcastic I'm afraid and I apologize. I have come to appreciate your input on this issue more than you might guess.

I actually was interested to know if you could approach your boss and advocate for a coworker's potential second chance. My only other insight into that sort of thing was a friend who worked at Cathay and he made it sound as though if you botched command evaluation the first time, that was it. That's interesting, thanks for the insight. Frankly, that sounds perfect to me. Please try to understand, that in the wake of this change to 65, our reality is not just the absense of a merit system. It's as though we only promote the most marginal; The opposite of a merit system. The sharp guys with normal personalities are eager to retire. The guys who are less so end up at the top and they tend to vote away the next pilot's flying opportunities through scope erosion. When age 65 kicks in it should have a dramatic effect. If not, we're toast. Project out our current trajectory, and we will only have pilots over 60 and no one will move up until the next guy dies. Everybody under 60 will be furloughed.

 

[pilotyip]

63 year old CAL pilot just dropped dead of a heart attack while going through customs yesterday. Sadly, unless these things happen in flight, they will never be news worthy.

and your point is? a 47 year old AAL pilot died of one in flight a few years back, should retirement now be 47?

 

[Flopgut]

Is sad it sad the he died or that he did not die in flight?

I knew the guy and had flown with him. He is one of the three pilots who had an on-duty heart attack back in 2007. He was dead on a jetway until a FA put an AED on him. He came back to the line after that for a while, then he had both his knees replaced. Came back again after that and now he's dead walking through customs for a layover.

I want to say this about the guy: Will Rogers never met him!

 

[The Boss]

Is sad it sad the he died or that he did not die in flight?

It is sad that (sudden) deaths that happen outside the cockpit will not be used to debate this topic because they are not kept track of. Does it matter if an airline pilot drops dead of a heart attack if they are in the cockpit or sitting in their Lay-Z-Boy at home.

Point is, it can happen anywhere, anytime and the older you get, the greater the chances are. At a minimum, medical standards should get higher as the pilot gets older.

 

[The Boss]

I knew the guy and had flown with him. He is one of the three pilots who had an on-duty heart attack back in 2007. He was dead on a jetway until a FA put an AED on him. He came back to the line after that for a while, then he had both his knees replaced. Came back again after that and now he's dead walking through customs for a layover.

That's my point. It is obvious that he never should have been able to come back. If he had died in flight there would be considerable convesration about how this guy was able to fly again, but since it didn't happen in flight, it will be swept under the rug.

 

[humveedriver]

Yeah yip, you're right, here we go again- I've laid out all my reasons time and again- and you ignore them and respond with "classic, get out of my seat".
You're nothing but an irrational troll on this subject.
Refute my argument, but stop telling me what my real intentions are- I have more integrity in my pinky than most boomers have shown themselves to have in their whole body. And the difference between captain money and FO money is stupid to me- not even close to worth giving up the seniority. Upgrade thinking is regional thinking- and I get a whole lot bigger ego boost from helping to run our business, than I ever will from sitting in the left seat again-
I just don't care.
Now is it that for some? Sure. But that's not an altogether bad argument either since boomers benefitted from madatory retirement ages their whole career-
But that's not my argument - and you're reallby showing that you have flimsy arguments by always going that route

Upgrade thinking is regional thinking? Not really. You work for a company that pays its pilots very well regardless of what seat they are in. I would venture to say only UPS and FedEx pilots have that kind of luxury. It's hard to raise a family and get ahead financially on typical major FO pay. Unless your spouse chooses to work also. If you are single, then the money may not be as much of an issue. I know some folks with families simply live on less to enjoy a better schedule. But thats a personal choice, that typically changes as the family gets older. So I don't think the difference between CA vs FO is stupid.
As far as ego goes, don't sell your future FO's short either. As an FO who would you rather fly with? A guy who lives to be a Sky God? Or someone who doesn't take themselves too seriously?

 

[pilotyip]

It is sad that (sudden) deaths that happen outside the cockpit will not be used to debate this topic because they are not kept track of. Does it matter if an airline pilot drops dead of a heart attack if they are in the cockpit or sitting in their Lay-Z-Boy at home.

Point is, it can happen anywhere, anytime and the older you get, the greater the chances are. At a minimum, medical standards should get higher as the pilot gets older.

they do, age 40 EKG, should there be something else,? like maybe starting at age 45 must write a ACT test score of 29+ to ensure mental ability. That would thin the ranks out.

 

[Flopgut]

That's my point. It is obvious that he never should have been able to come back. If he had died in flight there would be considerable convesration about how this guy was able to fly again, but since it didn't happen in flight, it will be swept under the rug.

This guy would walk through the terminal and passengers would stare. He was heap of stinking, loud flab and outright flaunted his near inability to walk. He was like too many IAH CAL pilots are (like I nearly was) and refused to take care of himself in any way other than his line value. (which to be fair, he did donate a great deal of to a lot of charities) "I'm going to keep doing this til they tell me I can't" is the Houston Bubba battlecry. Roster the airline on seniority (and steal every bit of that you can) and threaten the young guys with increased medical standards. Sound about right Yip?

 

[CapnVegetto]

Like dumb said, how do you move up? Theoretically everyone should be operating a/c to the same sheet of music, every single time. There is no individualism in the cockpit and everyone's performance should be "standard." So from there how do you decide whose a 747 captain and whose a Mad dog FO?

Like the rest of the real world does. Merit, performance, experience, and skill.

 

[BrickTop]

they do, age 40 EKG, should there be something else,? like maybe starting at age 45 must write a ACT test score of 29+ to ensure mental ability. That would thin the ranks out.

Don't count on it. Automation and reduced workload will offset any requirement of cognitive acuity. This job's aptitude requirement is like any other that is replaced by high levels of automation. The human element can be "Dumb down."

 

[pilotyip]

This guy would walk through the terminal and passengers would stare. He was heap of stinking, loud flab and outright flaunted his near inability to walk. He was like too many IAH CAL pilots are (like I nearly was) and refused to take care of himself in any way other than his line value. (which to be fair, he did donate a great deal of to a lot of charities) "I'm going to keep doing this til they tell me I can't" is the Houston Bubba battlecry. Roster the airline on seniority (and steal every bit of that you can) and threaten the young guys with increased medical standards. Sound about right Yip?

Not at all, not just young guys but everyone to the same stds. When anyone cries safety in the cockpit and says only guys over age 60 must go, well that is pure "Get out of my seat" If we are truly interested in safety vs age. A common what ever test is the right answer. We all know guys under 60 that are in much worse shape than some guys we know over age 60. BTW I kid about the ACT test

 

[Flopgut]

Yes Yip. I know. I'm abundantly clear on what you're saying. However, if we're going to turn this into some triathalon or genius test, let's go ahead and let those enhanced standards determine your aircraft and seat as well. In other words, get rid of seniority!! The old guys don't want that...

 

[Flopgut]

We all know guys under 60 that are in much worse shape than some guys we know over age 60.

BTW: This is not reality. I'm looking at the oldest guys there are every week. And I've sat in the left seat for almost 3 years. It's a cliche Yip. Even for a guy like me, the young guys got the message. Get in shape!!

 

[ASADFW7]

That is a sad story, I have always thought aviation medicals are a joke, no wonder most of us go to the easiest doctor we can find.