New ABX Contract

[rotor&wing]

No, I have expressed my distaste for your management group time and again, but have always said it does not extend to the workers. I think the upgrade remarks are in response to the threats they received by you group. I have also said in the past that I would welcome both work groups to work together and by that I do NOT mean a merger to work under your executive team.



I know they do, that’s why I asked if it was “their” version or fact.



agreed



Look, back in my wilder days I knew there were two types of people in a fight: those that jump up and down on tables and scream to the top of their lungs “I’m gonna do this, I’m gonna do that” just to get people to look who would pull the parties apart or call the cops. Then there are those who go “pssst, lets step out back and settle this thing”.

See where I’m coming from?

Oh yea, it's real evident where you are coming from.....

 

[shooter]

Oh yea, it's real evident where you are coming from.....

if you want to have ALPA continue to try and shut ABX out of DHL work, continue to expect me to bust your balls. If you want to start working together, you know what you have to do.

 

[rotor&wing]

if you want to have ALPA continue to try and shut ABX out of DHL work, continue to expect me to bust your balls. If you want to start working together, you know what you have to do.

You're not busting mine or anyone else's balls. And once again you resort to the ABX myth of " ALPA continuing to try and shut ABX out of DHL work".

Just let us know how the vote comes out on that TA over there at ABX. Like I said before, soon you will be in the same position as the Astar group.

Oh, and have a real nice day!

 

[shooter]

Oh, and have a real nice day!

I always do.

 

[AV8OR]

Shooter, in a nutshell....

A. They already sked for release months ago.

B. If they don't by-God bring the checkbook to the next round, there's gonna be hell to pay....release or not, by "our biggest customer"...(What a joke. Only customer.)

C. Everything we do will be legal and measured, but probably not be very helpful to DHL retaining what marketshare they currently have. Trust me though, before some of the nukes drop, Hans will have a chance to tell Daz and McKeen to pull the limo over and get out.

D. I know yall don't believe we've got it in us, because we'd most likely go buh bye if we strike. Trust me, and this isn't spin, if we do get released, we're ready, top down, to walk away for good. Gotto grow a pair some time.

E. Management is now trying to manipulate the mediator just enough to keep us in the game through the holidays. I imagine they'll try and trickle out just enough BS in the next week to keep up the charade. However, what they may not be aware of, is that the tactics we have planned prior to release, could be more costly than they think. Release and strike would simply be the final nail most likely, for both the pilots, Daz and DHL. I and probably 90% are good with that if it comes to it.

Doug's MCkeen's a lyin sack who's a professional shakedown man. He'll say whatever, whenever to stay on message. He has nothing invested here, will get paid handsomely whether we survive or not, and could care less whether he pushes us to the edge of or over the cliff. If DHL's good with the consequenses of going with that strategy till we're gone. They'll lose even more. And I'll get a pay raise and go back to flying with my favorite captain on a corporate jet.

Not the outcome we want. But one we're prepared for. Guess we'll see. Don't forget to visit the concession stand for popcorn and beverage during the show. RedAss - Part One

 

[AV8OR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGAuAHZd8S0

 

[shooter]

AV8OR, I wish you guys the best. If Astar is getting 7%, to the ABX 1.75%, Das is getting to be a very fat cat without keeping up the cost of living for you guys. Just look at what it costs you to drive to work over the past 4 years and your eyes POP.

Since your DHL labor can/will/and does have an impact on ABX DHL labor, it's a shame you guys can't put all the grievances and lawsuits that have a negative impact on ABX to the trash because the support of the Teamsters is huge across this country and could benefit both organizations. Why ALPA can't see that is beyond me and the threat tacticts wear thin. It's not like ALPA is pushing their will against an amature labor group. They KNOW what to do, how to do it and what is right or wrong.

so I never got answer from R&W, did the mediator tell you both that you are not at an impasse?

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

so I never got answer from R&W, did the mediator tell you both that you are not at an impasse?

What's up Shooter, I'll try and answer that one.
R&W is half right. Last March in an open letter to our MEC, mgt suggested that both parties petition the mediator for release. Fat chance we were going to do that then, but to my knowledge mgt did in fact follow through and submit their petition which is still valid.
Our MEC has stated quite clearly that if no appreciable progress is made during the next sit down Sept 19-22, then we will submit our own petition for release citing an impasse. It is then up to the mediator to decide if an impasse does in fact exist and pass along his finding to the NLRB for a vote as to whether or not to release both parties and start the 30 day cooling off clock. This last part I'm 70% sure of. The mediator does not release the parties, he only passes his findings on to the larger body of the NLRB and they then review and vote on it.


As for dropping the action in the 9'th circuit court, at this point in the game, it's really out of our hands. If the ULP claim is left to stand, every Scope Section of every ALPA contract representing 60,000+ pilots will be unenforceable and thus wrothless.

Please understand, I don't want your job. No Astar pilot worth his or her salt does not want any ABX Air pilot's job. And the 5% lunitic fringe that says they do don't frapping matter because they are only 5 frapping %. DHL will be made to honor our contract. But it can not be done at the expense of an ABX Air pilots job. In a nut shell, I want DHL to pay, but not with an ABX Air pilots job. I believe that can be accomplished If we are to prevail and we get our date with the arbitor.

I'm not trying to change your mind on all this, I know I'll never be able to do that. But at least I can let you see my position.

 

[shooter]

What's up Shooter, I'll try and answer that one.
R&W is half right. Last March in an open letter to our MEC, mgt suggested that both parties petition the mediator for release. Fat chance we were going to do that then, but to my knowledge mgt did in fact follow through and submit their petition which is still valid.
Our MEC has stated quite clearly that if no appreciable progress is made during the next sit down Sept 19-22, then we will submit our own petition for release citing an impasse. It is then up to the mediator to decide if an impasse does in fact exist and pass along his finding to the NLRB for a vote as to whether or not to release both parties and start the 30 day cooling off clock. This last part I'm 70% sure of. The mediator does not release the parties, he only passes his findings on to the larger body of the NLRB and they then review and vote on it.


As for dropping the action in the 9'th circuit court, at this point in the game, it's really out of our hands. If the ULP claim is left to stand, every Scope Section of every ALPA contract representing 60,000+ pilots will be unenforceable and thus wrothless.

Please understand, I don't want your job. No Astar pilot worth his or her salt does not want any ABX Air pilot's job. And the 5% lunitic fringe that says they do don't frapping matter because they are only 5 frapping %. DHL will be made to honor our contract. But it can not be done at the expense of an ABX Air pilots job. In a nut shell, I want DHL to pay, but not with an ABX Air pilots job. I believe that can be accomplished If we are to prevail and we get our date with the arbitor.

I'm not trying to change your mind on all this, I know I'll never be able to do that. But at least I can let you see my position.

I understand the mediator takes his findings to the NLRB for a ruling, but if he finds that there is progress being made and there is not an impasse and recommends such, the chances of being released are nonexistent.

As far as the court action, you are saying it’s an ALPA progression. And your group just follows ALPA rather than voting that they are not representing your best interests to put the pressure on them, unless your group agrees with ALPA and does not want them to stop the action. You do understand the rulings from the NLRB before right? That there is DHL freight and Airborne freight and the cartage of each? So, rather than working with Teamsters to secure the 2 carriers as exclusive DHL carriers in the USA, ALPA would rather kill off ABX or their own Astar group as opposed to working on an agreement to enforce exclusive rights to lift within the two carriers. Seems to be the fairest thing to do considering the situation both carriers labor force is in and since it’s not ABX or Astar freight. But that’s not the course ALPA chose to take; either kill off ABX for greed or put Astar at risk.

So while I understand that most pilots at Astar do not want to force ABX workers into unemployment, I hope you understand the reactions that follow to what National is doing. Just like the ABX (not Teamster) lawsuit was a reaction from the company to ALPA trying to do what it was, but ALPA is trying to sell a bill of goods that it’s an ABX fault. That’s just not true.

Good luck at getting what your families need from your management group. I have always felt you NEVER screw with a person’s job. ALPA is trying to do it to ABX and Astar is doing it to you. And I’m sitting here looking at ABX aircraft being parked each month and hope no pilots go with them. I don’t know how many aircraft and pilots need to be let go before my job is out the door. So I look at the whole situation and ask what’s it going to take for ABX aircraft and pilots to return to growth in their flying? The more crews/equipment working secures my job so I look out for their best interest at all times. I don’t try to fool myself that Astar does not think the same thing and it was just plain stupid that ALPA has taken this mistake this far. DHL buying Airborne could have been such a great thing had it been handled differently.

 

[shooter]

If ALPA were a true unified organization, they would not be suing themselves in the USAir/AmWest merger.

sorry, I could not keep my reputation as an arse-hole if I did not throw something like that in.

 

[flyinboxes]

The NMB will decide on release, not the NLRB. As long as progress is made in the eyes of the mediator, he will schedule more negotiations. As long as he does this, there will be no release. If he requests release due to impasse, the 3 member NMB will vote on whether or not they agree with his assessment. If not, it's back to the table, if they do it's into the 30 day cooling off period. There is no timeline on when the NMB must vote. They could render their decision in a few days, or as in the case of ASA, a year or more later.

On another note, I believe you underestimate the unity of this pilot group, our desire, and our willingness to put it ALL on the line. I have never witnessed in 12 years of ALPA membership and 4 different ALPA carriers the strength and unity that has developed. There is ALPA, and then there is DHL017 with the backing of ALPA and 60000 Airline pilots. I would not want any other union in my corner now.

It is time.

 

[rotor&wing]

I
As far as the court action, you are saying it’s an ALPA progression. And your group just follows ALPA rather than voting that they are not representing your best interests to put the pressure on them, unless your group agrees with ALPA and does not want them to stop the action. You do understand the rulings from the NLRB before right? That there is DHL freight and Airborne freight and the cartage of each? So, rather than working with Teamsters to secure the 2 carriers as exclusive DHL carriers in the USA, ALPA would rather kill off ABX or their own Astar group as opposed to working on an agreement to enforce exclusive rights to lift within the two carriers. Seems to be the fairest thing to do considering the situation both carriers labor force is in and since it’s not ABX or Astar freight. But that’s not the course ALPA chose to take; either kill off ABX for greed or put Astar at risk.

So while I understand that most pilots at Astar do not want to force ABX workers into unemployment, I hope you understand the reactions that follow to what National is doing. Just like the ABX (not Teamster) lawsuit was a reaction from the company to ALPA trying to do what it was, but ALPA is trying to sell a bill of goods that it’s an ABX fault. That’s just not true.

Good luck at getting what your families need from your management group. I have always felt you NEVER screw with a person’s job. ALPA is trying to do it to ABX and Astar is doing it to you. And I’m sitting here looking at ABX aircraft being parked each month and hope no pilots go with them. I don’t know how many aircraft and pilots need to be let go before my job is out the door. So I look at the whole situation and ask what’s it going to take for ABX aircraft and pilots to return to growth in their flying? The more crews/equipment working secures my job so I look out for their best interest at all times. I don’t try to fool myself that Astar does not think the same thing and it was just plain stupid that ALPA has taken this mistake this far. DHL buying Airborne could have been such a great thing had it been handled differently.

Just keep perpetuating that myth.

And have a real nice day!

 

[ABXbooger]

There is ALPA, and then there is DHL017 with the backing of ALPA and 60000 Airline pilots. I would not want any other union in my corner now.


What are the other 60000 airline pilots gonna do for you if you strike? Stop flying "your" freight or not cross your picket lines? ALPA is a joke when it comes to freight...pax I can understand but freight? I am glad to hear your local is united, because that is the only thing you got going for you.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

I understand the mediator takes his findings to the NLRB for a ruling, but if he finds that there is progress being made and there is not an impasse and recommends such, the chances of being released are nonexistent.

FinB is correct. It's the NMB that makes the decision. I screwed up my acronyms.

As far as the court action, you are saying it’s an ALPA progression. And your group just follows ALPA rather than voting that they are not representing your best interests to put the pressure on them, unless your group agrees with ALPA and does not want them to stop the action.

It is a 017 led progression because it is our contract that has been violated. ALPA National is solidly behind 017 because this scope violation has become a "national" question. If we prevail in the 9'th circuit, the "national" question will be settled. We will then go back to the 2'nd circuit where I'm confident that the Judge will grant us our day with DHL in front of the arbitor because it is our contract that was violated. DHL will be made to make 017 whole, but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF ANY ABX AIR PILOTS JOB.

You do understand the rulings from the NLRB before right? That there is DHL freight and Airborne freight and the cartage of each?

There in lies the rub. The Judge in the 2'nd circuit unwittingly mixed an RLA question into a NLRB bowl. Of coarse they are going to use their rules to decide on the ULP matter. Clarifying that decision is what is going on in the 9'th circuit today.And again, it was our contract that was violated.

 

[shooter]

FinB is correct. It's the NMB that makes the decision. I screwed up my acronyms.


It is a 017 led progression because it is our contract that has been violated. ALPA National is solidly behind 017 because this scope violation has become a "national" question. If we prevail in the 9'th circuit, the "national" question will be settled. We will then go back to the 2'nd circuit where I'm confident that the Judge will grant us our day with DHL in front of the arbitor because it is our contract that was violated. DHL will be made to make 017 whole, but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF ANY ABX AIR PILOTS JOB.

There in lies the rub. The Judge in the 2'nd circuit unwittingly mixed an RLA question into a NLRB bowl. Of coarse they are going to use their rules to decide on the ULP matter. Clarifying that decision is what is going on in the 9'th circuit today.And again, it was our contract that was violated.

I guess its just a waiting game until then for the rulings and I guess we will see if your group and Astar management get things worked out. I think AV8OR is right that it will be delayed until after the holidays. That would have you guys walking the streets in the dead of winter ***ouch***. I bet if it happens you will be walking in Plantation rather than Wilmington.

And rotor&wing, I know I'm an arse-hole with an opinion, you're just an @$$. Its guys like you that get the strong reaction against your whole group. I hope that allows you to have a nice day. bye bye

 

[Jurassic Jet]

There is ALPA, and then there is DHL017 with the backing of ALPA and 60000 Airline pilots. I would not want any other union in my corner now.


What are the other 60000 airline pilots gonna do for you if you strike? Stop flying "your" freight or not cross your picket lines? ALPA is a joke when it comes to freight...pax I can understand but freight? I am glad to hear your local is united, because that is the only thing you got going for you.

+1 :beer:

I would MUCH rather have the backing of 1.4 MILLION Teamsters in my corner.

Some quick facts from teamster.org

Teamsters Union Founded: 1903
Total Number of Teamsters: 1.4 million

The largest single employer of Teamsters members is United Parcel Service, which employs more than 200,000 Teamsters members.

The best-known Teamsters work in the freight industry. More than 120,000 Teamsters are covered by multiple employers under the National Master Freight Agreement.

The Teamsters represent 1.4 million working men and women in virtually every occupation throughout the United States and Canada. Teamsters operate computers; protect families as law enforcement officers; work as technical employees in both the public and private sectors; care for patients in hospitals and nursing homes, work as public defenders; assist customers at car rental agencies; work at leading hotels; work in schools as both principals and custodians; repair highway bridges and collect tolls on thruways and turnpikes; process, store and deliver food products; and transport automobiles, trucks, SUVs and other vehicles.

Two-thirds of Teamsters members work in one of five divisions: Warehouse, Parcel, Freight, Public Employees and Industrial Trades. The Public Employees sector is the union's fastest-growing division.

Teamsters members are also spread out geographically. The largest concentrations of Teamsters are in the regions in the Central and Eastern states.

 

[FreightBumper]

Just keep perpetuating that myth.

And have a real nice day!

If you really believe that is a myth, you are the most naive person on the planet. Fly lower or use oxygen.

 

[FreightBumper]

The NMB will decide on release, not the NLRB. As long as progress is made in the eyes of the mediator, he will schedule more negotiations. As long as he does this, there will be no release. If he requests release due to impasse, the 3 member NMB will vote on whether or not they agree with his assessment. If not, it's back to the table, if they do it's into the 30 day cooling off period. There is no timeline on when the NMB must vote. They could render their decision in a few days, or as in the case of ASA, a year or more later.

On another note, I believe you underestimate the unity of this pilot group, our desire, and our willingness to put it ALL on the line. I have never witnessed in 12 years of ALPA membership and 4 different ALPA carriers the strength and unity that has developed. There is ALPA, and then there is DHL017 with the backing of ALPA and 60000 Airline pilots. I would not want any other union in my corner now.

It is time.

ALPA supporting it's own? Check with Commair on how supportive Delta ALPA boys honored their picket lines.

 

[ABXbooger]

I have always wondered why a freight carrier would want to be ALPA. In the pax world you are protecting your job, as your pax can't really fly to their destination (except a few) without an ALPA crew.

Now a box, well that can be delivered by many different means...trucks, train, ship, even other aircraft that aren't affiliated with ALPA.

Having any number of ALPA "brothers" behind you only does one thing...you've got a lot of people behind you watching your freight being delivered.

I'm not saying I'm not sympathetic, it is just the reality of the world.

 

[ABXbooger]

I guess the Fedex boys won't be crossing your lines...that'll help.