New ABX Contract

[Cargoav8or]

"Exactly what does a striking Astar want from ABX?"[/quote]

For you not to deliver to cities that we alone serve, just as we would not serve cities served alone by you if you were to strike. Cities shared by us would only result in a TRO against you and I don't see how we could possibly fault you for doing a job ordered by a judge. And thats it.

 

[rotor&wing]

Thank God this forum only represents a very small minority opinion.

 

[scarface]

I think I'll get my guidance from IBT leadership. I believe they will have ABXs best interest at heart;I don't know if I feel that way about ASTAR. In fact I'm pretty sure I don't.

 

[Box-Hauler]

Ok Guys time to step back and calm down.

Yes there was and is a lawsuit filed by ALPA, one which Teamsters surely would have filed if the shoe was on the other foot, so we need to move on.

Best option now is to get the 2 locals together and sign something that agrees on combining the 2 groups. Also in the agreement there would be a strike support agreement. A strike agreement that will stop all freight going to any DHL city served by a member of the new group.

This will force DHL to deal with one pilot group. A group paid by 2 different people but one pilot entity. DHL is a business, they will realize that they in essence now have 1 airline but are paying for 2 management teams to run them. This will force a merger / buyout whatever. The pilots will not care because we already have our seniority issues worked out. Problem solved, DHL will come to realize that UPS and FedEx (both who used to use ACMI for lift) do know how to run express freight in the U.S. by using 1 airline.

If we do this then all of the pilots futures will be secured and we can then negotiate with the new management from a position of power. This could also be a way to bring in the other ACMI carriers in the US (polar / atlas) to get them in on the "one pilot list".

I am sure someone a lot smarter than I can figure out the details but if we as 2 separate groups join as one we can secure our own futures without relying on our respective management, which up to now has only been concerned with their own golden parachutes. This applies to ABX and Astar. Both management teams have shown no resolve in growing their side of DHL business.

Lets hear the flames.....:uzi:

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

Lets hear the flames.....:uzi:

A very sensible post. Well done.

 

[erichartmann]

Honestly guys, we don't need you to picket with us.

Glad you feel that way. I personally have no intention of picketing with you as things now stand. I will honoryour picket line to the letter of the law. I will also honor my union’s position on struck freight unless a court rules otherwise.

The lawsuit is irrelevant in this case. You just have to decide whether you want to be a scab or maintain your integrity. The lawsuit will continue. You and I, everyone for that matter, knows that no court will take your jobs from you and award them to us.

I am not so confident as you on what a judge may or may not do. The specifics of what was done and when have been quoted elsewhere and I will not restate them. I agree the lawsuit will continue. It is what it is. Personally, I will never forgive or forget, regardless of what happens. I may take no overt hostile action such as starting a jumpseat war, but I will remember. I will be professionally pleasant to those of you who ride my jumpseat, but I will not ride yours. Ever. I fully realize this is more of an inconvenience to me than to you, but it is a matter of personal pride to me that I accept no assistance of any kind from you. I do not wish to be a position of feeling I owe you anything. This too is matter of integrity.

You, your management are losing your jobs on your own with your spirit of noncooperation. Not performance, not fleet, cooperation. I know ABF knew how to do it. You have fought DHL at every turn, deicing, atc, "c" containers and the list goes on. This is info from first hand accounts of people who were at those meetings. I have even witnessed some of your boys while on a jumpseat stop short of the unloader and say "f**k DHL, they can move it themselves". Whether you like it or not you are employees and ABX does not call the shots.

While I cannot speak for anyone but myself I strive to do my job to the best of my ability every time I come to work. This means that if my flight leaves or arrives late it was due to circumstances completely beyond any control or preplanning on my part. This is a matter of both personal and professional pride to me.

It is no secret that DHL did a study on consolidation. They planned to park a certain number of aircraft when they bought ABF. It made sense for them to park the “C” container -9’s and the non door ABX -8’s. They don’t fit in with DHL’s desired system and the -8’s burn way to much fuel. Cooperation or non cooperation has nothing to do with it.

Dasburg in meetings has stated that he does not like many things DHL has done but he knows his place and is being rewarded for it. You are being slowly kicked to the curb from your own doing and the current situation with us is one more form on noncooperation. We have asked plenty of times, so now we make points and hope you notice. Seems you caught this one, good job.

Spare me. Somehow I don’t think cooperating with you on an ALPO strike against Astar and DHL is going to be seen by DHL in a favorable light.

I've never heard from any MEC member that the intent was to take a job from you. Our intent as described to me was that we did not want the sale at all. Unfortunately, alpa apparently had other motives and blunders. News flash, many of us dislike alpa as much as you, but the case has no choice but to continue on now. We must try to be made whole at least monetarily. I am sorry for the angst it has caused between the groups, but as shooter said, were not freight dogs because were all cuddly, or something to that effect.

Again, actions speak louder than words. The revisionist history and muddying of the waters that you and some of your peers have tried to do suggest you are embarrassed. If so, good. You should be. As a group I believe we have lost more than you. None of your aircraft have been parked. We are not flying to Europe in your stead. If your flying time has been reduced, well then, so has ours.

Flame away, I have no doubt you will. God forbid you should step back and take an honest assessment of the situation. None of us are better off against each other but if we have to be, I'm batting for Asstar.

Despite my personal feelings I’m intelligent and practical enough to recognize that mutual cooperation between our two groups would benefit both groups. That means a two way street. Others have posted ideas and broad outlines of plans on how we should proceed. I’m largely in agreement with them though I despise the need.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

DHL will come to realize that UPS and FedEx (both who used to use ACMI for lift) do know how to run express freight in the U.S. by using 1 airline.

Just to clarify a bit, UPS didn't abandon their use of ACMI carriers because it made any kind of financial or operational sense to do so. They did it because then-FAA chief Alan McArtor forced them to do it. At the time, McArtor was "on loan" to the FAA from FedEx, where he had been the VP of Airline Ops. A lot of people in the business felt he was on some "secret mission" to level the playing field between his former company and their biggest competitor, UPS. Having accomplished that, he returned to FedEx at the end of his tenure with the FAA.

Yes, UPS did have problems with some ACMI carriers in the early days, but they were probably no worse than the ones they dealt with when starting their own flight ops a couple years later.

The reason FedEx's 121 ops were kept in-house are a little more convoluted, and at this point, irrelevant. Employee-pilots (and their unions) are a fact of life at both carriers, and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.

Nowdays, a significant percentage of both UPS and FedEx freight either begins or ends it's journey on an ACMI carrier of some sort. In addition, FedEx relies on independent contractors for a great deal of it's ground handling and delivery. If there were any benefits to cost or performance to be realized by bringing those contractors in-house, they would have done so by now.

 

[Box-Hauler]

Nowdays, a significant percentage of both UPS and FedEx freight either begins or ends it's journey on an ACMI carrier of some sort. In addition, FedEx relies on independent contractors for a great deal of it's ground handling and delivery. If there were any benefits to cost or performance to be realized by bringing those contractors in-house, they would have done so by now.

Agreed that some (small percentage) of the freight does begin on chartered aircraft.

UPS and FedEx use charter only where it makes sense and where the unions allow. (Small cities) areas of the country that cannot support a through stop. It makes no financial sense to fly a 727 into Trukee CA for 1 brown or purple delivery van of boxes. UPS and FedEx learned long ago that control of your aircraft, maintenance and pilot group is worth the cost.

If it was cheaper without loosing customers then UPS and FedEx would do it, but they don't. They control their own airlines to make sure that the express stuff gets to its destination on time, every time.

 

[shooter]

They control their own airlines to make sure that the express stuff gets to its destination on time, every time.

:nuts: What?? Are they nuts! Now why would an express operator want to provide service to their customers and care?

seriously though, the DHL mentality may just be that they don't care about service. I heard Astar people say that, but I did not believe it. And even if that were true for DHL NCG people (NCG really means= No Clue Group ), as a result they will NEVER be a player in the US. And why would Astar just buy into that thinking? The whole cut your nose off cliche. There is a car in the DHL admin lot you guys may walk by while going to the sims that has a KY plate (gee, wonder who that could be) that is custom to read L8FR8. Proud of that is he/she?

 

[FreightBumper]

:nuts: What?? Are they nuts! Now why would an express operator want to provide service to their customers and care?

seriously though, the DHL mentality may just be that they don't care about service. I heard Astar people say that, but I did not believe it. And even if that were true for DHL NCG people (NCG really means= No Clue Group ), as a result they will NEVER be a player in the US. And why would Astar just buy into that thinking? The whole cut your nose off cliche. There is a car in the DHL admin lot you guys may walk by while going to the sims that has a KY plate (gee, wonder who that could be) that is custom to read L8FR8. Proud of that is he/she?

They don't need to care if it's late or just doesn't get there. They are credited with a 99% performance bonus irregardless. They have a bye for all their delays, weather or mechanicals. That is the only way it could tally up close to 99%. Their own fooks have bragged about it on my jumpseats.

 

[FreightBumper]

They don't need to care if it's late or just doesn't get there. They are credited with a 99% performance bonus irregardless. They have a bye for all their delays, weather or mechanicals. That is the only way it could tally up close to 99%. Their own fooks have bragged about it on my jumpseats.

Sorry about that...(folks not fooks).

 

[rotor&wing]

There is a car in the DHL admin lot you guys may walk by while going to the sims that has a KY plate (gee, wonder who that could be) that is custom to read L8FR8. Proud of that is he/she?

Wow. Guess no one from ABX would ever think/consider living in Kentucky.

Whatever.

 

[rotor&wing]

They don't need to care if it's late or just doesn't get there. They are credited with a 99% performance bonus irregardless. They have a bye for all their delays, weather or mechanicals. That is the only way it could tally up close to 99%. Their own fooks have bragged about it on my jumpseats.

This is just yet another "Myth" perpetuated by ABX.

BTW, DHL uses the same criteria for both ABX and Astar in determining performance.

 

[GoABX]

BTW, DHL uses the same criteria for both ABX and Astar in determining performance.

Not true; as per our CEO and ops people. Different metrics for each carrier.

 

[rotor&wing]

Not true; as per our CEO and ops people. Different metrics for each carrier.

Sorry, it's just a myth perpetuated by ABX. DHL applies the same criteria to any carrier providing service to them.

 

[AV8OR]

First of all "irregardless" isn't a word. Second, yall on the ABX side are 100% correct. Our actual on time performance is about 50%. But we just make up that crap about 99% and DHL totally buys it so they can pay us a monetary performance bonus every year. Just ask Joe Hete. He'll tell ya the truth. We suck. Heck the fact is none of our pilots are even ATP's. That's right, we're just a bunch of guys with Sport Pilot certificates. That's why we don't have CATII. That's alright though. I heard we're gettin ready to start welding shut our cargo doors and and getting CATII certification so we can compete.....that is if any of us can ever pass a checkride.....(pssst...the FAA has never required any of us ever actally do initial or recurrent either. They just throw us the keys and say "Have at it boys!" Sweet deal ain't it?)

Jeeze Louise

Oh yeah, almost forgot. That 400 Mill DOD contract we just got......NOT TRUE. Absolutely bogus! Like the moon landing and rasslin'!

 

[shooter]

does Astar count crew delays against their performance?

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

First of all "irregardless" isn't a word. Second, yall on the ABX side ...etc

Middle bit.... and then.....

..... is none of our pilots are even ATP's....etc

A very informative post Mr. Apocalypse which certainly confirms the suspicions long harbored on this side of the cornfield.

Since the language police are on the scene - yall is a contraction. As such it needs an apostrophe whereas ATP's as a plural but not being possessive doesn't. Tricky stuff this language thing. Sometimes the apostrophe even comes after the s should it be both plural and possessive. Double tricky then - like a Cat II landing in ATL.

On a lighter conversational note. I do hope your alpo cult meeting in the park goes well today. Cake and ice cream all round I'll bet served by the Grand Wizard himself with each child receiving a free commemorative stain-resistant copy of the lawsuit along with a big alpo balloon saying "it's my freight". Actually, it isn't - but you can pretend it is if it makes you happy.

Do you have a secret handshake for these occasions of high ceremony or am I confusing you with the girl scouts? Alpo cookies - could be a serious fund raiser to bolster ailing coffers.

 

[AV8OR]

Middle bit.... and then.....



A very informative post Mr. Apocalypse which certainly confirms the suspicions long harbored on this side of the cornfield.

Since the language police are on the scene - yall is a contraction. As such it needs an apostrophe whereas ATP's as a plural but not being possessive doesn't. Tricky stuff this language thing. Sometimes the apostrophe even comes after the s should it be both plural and possessive. Double tricky then - like a Cat II landing in ATL.

On a lighter conversational note. I do hope your alpo cult meeting in the park goes well today. Cake and ice cream all round I'll bet served by the Grand Wizard himself with each child receiving a free commemorative stain-resistant copy of the lawsuit along with a big alpo balloon saying "it's my freight". Actually, it isn't - but you can pretend it is if it makes you happy.

Do you have a secret handshake for these occasions of high ceremony or am I confusing you with the girl scouts? Alpo cookies - could be a serious fund raiser to bolster ailing coffers.

Before your last post, I thought your greatness was simply limited to aviation skill and knowledge, but after that clinic, I must look away. I must avert my eyes, for the glory of your ABX, CAT II, 767, "better than AStar performance", has shamed me into perfect and complete shame. I sir, bow in humble deference to to your greatness. I cower in the shadow of your glowing superiority.

 

[ABXbooger]

I started this post to talk about the shortfalls in our new contract. Unfortunately it has turned into a debate about whos got a bigger...well whatever.

Good luck in your strike, Astar, unfortunately you guys won't have the stones to take it that far, especially when your management assures you that you (astar) have no freight and anyone in the world could fly it and it not be struck freight. You (Astar) don't have any legal finding to make DHL do anything, You don't have a "no furlough" clause, your contract is for ******************** and it's gonna get worse. Re-fleet is on the way, so is CAT II, so are all those shiny new 737-7's that were bandied about a while back.

You guys strike and I'll make left seat in 2 years...

 

[AV8OR]

"You guys strike and I'll make left seat in 2 years..."

Ahhh the cream always rises to the top doesn't it?

I think we're done here.

 

[ABXbooger]

Seriously, regardless of who hauls it, DHL had better get their stuff together. I talked with someone who deals with a major DHL customer. At a meeting last week, this company was reviewing customer complaints. The number one complaint was that DHL sucked and that this company should stop using them. Many customers have already started specifying that they not ship DHL to them. Maybe we should all point the big finger at both of our bosses, not each other.

 

[ABXbooger]

"You guys strike and I'll make left seat in 2 years..."

Ahhh the cream always rises to the top doesn't it?

I think we're done here.

Just making a point, you guys don't really have any leg to stand on, even if you think you do. DHL owns 50%, huh, what's 150 million to them?

 

[rotor&wing]

Just making a point, you guys don't really have any leg to stand on, even if you think you do. DHL owns 50%, huh, what's 150 million to them?

Actually the same applies for ABX. You guys have no freight, no scope, hardly any industry standard airplanes, etc, etc, etc.......

Good luck with your contract. From what is being told, it looks more concessionary everyday. And if you vote it down, you too will soon be facing the same fate as the Astar crews.

 

[flyinboxes]

How does DHL's ownership of us have anything to do with this? When are you ABX Reamsters gonna get off the "picket" fence?

 

[shooter]

Oh yeah, almost forgot. That 400 Mill DOD contract we just got......NOT TRUE. Absolutely bogus! Like the moon landing and rasslin'!

I had read that on "that other board", it's only a $2,500 contract that is part of a $400 million DoD contract. I bet you Dasburg wishes he had a $400 million contract though. who would'nt!

 

[shooter]

No sense in leaving all that info over there, so here it is if you did not know where I was referring to earlier.

I think the bizjournal has the story wrong. The whole DOD contract is worth $440 million, astar is just one of nine who got a piece of that.

http://www.defenselink.mil/contracts...ontractid=3599

UNITED STATES TRANSPORTATION COMMAND
ASTAR Air Cargo, Inc., of Wilmington, Ohio, is being awarded one of nine multiple awards of an indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity, fixed-price contract with a total maximum value of $400,000,000 (base year plus three one-year options). The contract award value is $2,500.00. The contractor is to perform international express delivery of packages and letters weighing 300 lbs or less. Work will be performed internationally. The performance period is from 1 October 2007 to 30 September 2011. Contract funds will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was competitively procured and nine offers were received. The United States Transportation Command Directorate of Acquisition, Scott Air Force Base, Ill., is the contracting activity (HTC711-08-D-0001).

​

Here are 4 more with another 4 waiting to be published-


Air Transportation International, of Little Rock, Ark., is being awarded one of nine multiple awards of an indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity, fixed-price contract with a total maximum value of $400,000,000.00 (base year plus three one-year options). The contract award value is $2,500.00. The contractor is to perform international express delivery of packages and letters weighing 300 lbs or less. Work will be performed internationally. The performance period is from 1 October 2007 to 30 September 2011. Contract funds will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was competitively procured and nine offers were received. The United States Transportation Command Directorate of Acquisition, Scott Air Force Base, Ill., is the contracting activity (HTC711-08-D-0002).
Continental Airlines, Inc., of Houston, Texas, is being awarded one of nine multiple awards of an indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity, fixed-price contract with a total maximum value of $400,000,000.00 (base year plus three one-year options). The contract award value is $2,500.00. The contractor is to perform international express delivery of packages weighing 151 to 300 lbs. Work will be performed internationally. The performance period is from 1 October 2007 to 30 September 2011. Contract funds will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was competitively procured and nine offers were received. The United States Transportation Command Directorate of Acquisition, Scott Air Force Base, Ill., is the contracting activity (HTC711-08-D-0003).
Federal Express Corporation, of Washington, D.C., is being awarded one of nine multiple awards of an indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity, fixed-price contract with a total maximum value of $400,000,000.00 (base year plus three one-year options). The contract award value is $2,500.00. The contractor is to perform international express delivery of packages and letters weighing 300 lbs or less. Work will be performed internationally. The performance period is from 1 October 2007 to 30 September 2011. Contract funds will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was competitively procured and nine offers were received. The United States Transportation Command Directorate of Acquisition, Scott Air Force Base, Ill., is the contracting activity (HTC711-08-D-0009).
Miami Air International, of Miami, Fla., is being awarded one of nine multiple awards of an indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity, fixed-price contract with a total maximum value of $400,000,000.00 (base year plus three one-year options). The contract award value is $2,500.00. The contractor is to perform international express delivery of packages weighing 151 to 300 lbs. Work will be performed internationally. The performance period is from 1 October 2007 to 30 September 2011. Contract funds will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was competitively procured and nine offers were received. The United States Transportation Command Directorate of Acquisition, Scott Air Force Base, Ill., is the contracting activity (HTC711-08-D-0004).

http://www.defenselink.mil/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=3602

HEY EVERYBODY! WE LANDED ON THE MOON!- Jim Carey, Dumb and Dumber

could'nt resist

 

[shooter]

Hey Astar????????????

Hey Astar, I just read the WNJ press on your picket. Was that the same rat Delta used in ATL?

At end of the article, your VP says that the mediator has informed both sides that you are not at an impasse based on both proposals so you will not get released. Is that true or just what management heard? And if true, why all the chest thumping when your management knows its never going to happen? Why all the harsh threat type words to all the "other carriers to be put on notice"? Something about all this smells funny.

 

[rotor&wing]

Hey Astar, I just read the WNJ press on your picket. Was that the same rat Delta used in ATL?

At end of the article, your VP says that the mediator has informed both sides that you are not at an impasse based on both proposals so you will not get released. Is that true or just what management heard? And if true, why all the chest thumping when your management knows its never going to happen? Why all the harsh threat type words to all the "other carriers to be put on notice"? Something about all this smells funny.

First of all, why do you even care? You have articulated your distaste of Astar and it's pilot group time and time again. Now ABX pilots on this forum are already anticipating potential upgrades if we strike.

Guess what? Management lies. Now, we all know that ABX management has never told your pilot group a lie, and you can take every word from them to the bank.

As far as the impasse, Astar has already requested it in previous meetings. The next round of negotiations will tell the tale.

As previously stated, ABX pilot group is not far away from being in the same situation. That is unless you guys are willing to accept a concessionary contract.

We are not, and we're willing to prove it. How about you?

 

[shooter]

First of all, why do you even care? You have articulated your distaste of Astar and it's pilot group time and time again. Now ABX pilots on this forum are already anticipating potential upgrades if we strike.

No, I have expressed my distaste for your management group time and again, but have always said it does not extend to the workers. I think the upgrade remarks are in response to the threats they received by you group. I have also said in the past that I would welcome both work groups to work together and by that I do NOT mean a merger to work under your executive team.

Guess what? Management lies. Now, we all know that ABX management has never told your pilot group a lie, and you can take every word from them to the bank.

I know they do, that’s why I asked if it was “their” version or fact.

As far as the impasse, Astar has already requested it in previous meetings. The next round of negotiations will tell the tale.

agreed

As previously stated, ABX pilot group is not far away from being in the same situation. That is unless you guys are willing to accept a concessionary contract.

We are not, and we're willing to prove it. How about you?

Look, back in my wilder days I knew there were two types of people in a fight: those that jump up and down on tables and scream to the top of their lungs “I’m gonna do this, I’m gonna do that” just to get people to look who would pull the parties apart or call the cops. Then there are those who go “pssst, lets step out back and settle this thing”.

See where I’m coming from?