New ABX Contract

[HeavyjetDC8]

Muddy waters at best with perhaps a bit of revisionist history going on. If the one with the troublesome pants did however utter the phrases as stated then fighting words they would certainly be.

And as for fighting words, something of a threat aimed at you-know-who on the Astar hotline and web site.

A familiar song of Polar/Atlas battle lines - whose freight is it?

I mean, If I were to fly an Astar aircraft full of DHL freight during a strike then yes, I'm a scab.
But if I fly my ABX aircraft full of DHL freight during a strike then I'm simply doing my job. Feel free to quote the last sentence and if wrong, tell me why.

The hotline would imply that alpa now speaks for and stands in judgment of all flight crew having arrogated wide new sweeping powers unto itself. Way to go alpo.

So, say UAL is on strike and their passengers rebook on DAL. Is the DAL flightcrew now in violation of alpa dictates?

I ask because it's best to get this sorted out before the crap hits the fan rather than during with endless argument afterward.

Exactly what does a striking Astar want from ABX?

 

[penguin22]

Just pay attention to what the attorneys are saying. Its all right here:

http://www.nlrb.gov/research/decisions/board_decisions/template_html.aspx?file=http://www.nlrb.gov/shared_files/Board%20Decisions/345/345-51.htm&size=164

These are all direct quotes:

"ALPA has sought, in its grievance and in its federal court counterclaim, to enforce an interpretation and application of the scope clause in its collective-bargaining agreement with DHL Worldwide and DHL Holdings in the following manner: to require DHL Holdings and DHL Worldwide to terminate its subsidiary’s contract with ABX, pursuant to which ABX provides flying services for Airborne, flying that has traditionally and is presently being done by Teamsters members, and to assign this flying to ALPA members.

ABX is the primary employer in ALPA’s grievance and counterclaim because ALPA seeks the ABX flying positions for its members.

In the present case, the tactical object of ALPA’s grievance and counterclaim is the air transportation service performed by the Teamsters pilots who work for ABX.

ALPA filed an answer and counterclaim seeking (1) an order to compel expedited arbitration of its grievance with DHL Holdings and DHL Worldwide, and (2) an injunction to restrain DHL Holdings and its subsidiaries from contracting air transportation services to ABX

The Respondent’s grievance and counterclaim have the clear object of forcing DHL/Airborne to cease doing business with ABX

During the course of that hearing, ALPA reiterated and made clear its position that only ALPA members employed by ASTAR could fly the freight for Airborne that had previously and was presently being flown by the Teamsters Union flight crews of ABX.


. In the present case, ALPA is allegedly threatening DHL Holdings and its subsidiaries, employers within the meaning of Section 2(2), (6), and (7) of the NLRA, with the object of forcing these employers to stop doing business with ABX

ALPA’s actions “were an unambiguous attempt to force [DHL], a neutral employer, to cease doing business with [ABX]

4. By filing a grievance and a counterclaim against DHL Holdings and DHL Worldwide with an object to force or require DHL Holdings and DHL Worldwide to cease doing business with ABX, Inc

Indeed, the result of the Respondent’s success would be to create a large number of new jobs for ASTAR "

 

[hvydriver]

Well, like I said before, we were trying to stop the deal. We did that after your most excellent President said what he said. If you believe me or not, I really don't care. If you bother to look at my posts over the past year or so, you will find that I have been even handed and fair. If that's not enough, so be it. We've got our mission. You go do what you think might be the right thing to do, and we'll see where it goes. I'm done.

 

[erichartmann]

Well, like I said before, we were trying to stop the deal. We did that after your most excellent President said what he said. If you believe me or not, I really don't care. If you bother to look at my posts over the past year or so, you will find that I have been even handed and fair. If that's not enough, so be it. We've got our mission. You go do what you think might be the right thing to do, and we'll see where it goes. I'm done.

I think you should check your dates and times. As I recall the initial ALPO lawsuit and Joe's countersuit were filed before President Pants assumed the position.

 

[hvydriver]

I think you should check your dates and times. As I recall the initial ALPO lawsuit and Joe's countersuit were filed before President Pants assumed the position.

Oops, you are right Eric. It was the Pres. prior to Pres. Pants. It's been awhile now. It was Nov. of 03. My bad. It was at the Heritage Resturant in Cincy. We filed, took a merger assessment, DHL sued, then ABX jumped on, and then the former Pres. said that at the Heritage. It's starting to be like playing telephone.

 

[JohnnyPilot]

What did pants say at the Heritage?

 

[Cargoav8or]

Honestly guys, we don't need you to picket with us. The lawsuit is irrelevant in this case. You just have to decide whether you want to be a scab or maintain your integrity. The lawsuit will continue. You and I, everyone for that matter, knows that no court will take your jobs from you and award them to us. You, your management are losing your jobs on your own with your spirit of noncooperation. Not performance, not fleet, cooperation. I know ABF knew how to do it. You have fought DHL at every turn, deicing, atc, "c" containers and the list goes on. This is info from first hand accounts of people who were at those meetings. I have even witnessed some of your boys while on a jumpseat stop short of the unloader and say "f**k DHL, they can move it themselves". Whether you like it or not you are employees and ABX does not call the shots. Dasburg in meetings has stated that he does not like many things DHL has done but he knows his place and is being rewarded for it. You are being slowly kicked to the curb from your own doing and the current situation with us is one more form on noncooperation. We have asked plenty of times, so now we make points and hope you notice. Seems you caught this one, good job.

I've never heard from any MEC member that the intent was to take a job from you. Our intent as described to me was that we did not want the sale at all. Unfortunately, alpa apparently had other motives and blunders. News flash, many of us dislike alpa as much as you, but the case has no choice but to continue on now. We must try to be made whole at least monetarily. I am sorry for the angst it has caused between the groups, but as shooter said, were not freight dogs because were all cuddly, or something to that effect.

Flame away, I have no doubt you will. God forbid you should step back and take an honest assessment of the situation. None of us are better off against each other but if we have to be, I'm batting for Asstar.

 

[hvydriver]

I mean, If I were to fly an Astar aircraft full of DHL freight during a strike then yes, I'm a scab.
But if I fly my ABX aircraft full of DHL freight during a strike then I'm simply doing my job. Feel free to quote the last sentence and if wrong, tell me why.

The hotline would imply that alpa now speaks for and stands in judgment of all flight crew having arrogated wide new sweeping powers unto itself. Way to go alpo.

I've got a great idea. Instead of asking us line dogs, why don't you ask your President? The definition of struck work in our instance was agreed upon by all ALPA carriers at the Cargo meeting, and by your leadership. He should be able to tell you precisely what it is. If not, I suppose we could trot out a letter from FedEx, Kitty Hawk, etc, testifying that your guys were there, and did agree on it.

 

[GoABX]

Read the WORDS

I keep hearing "I know the words say this, but this is what we really want."

The words of lawsuit say I want ALL of your sh!t, and you can have none. (DHL cannot do business with ABX, ABX will essentially be shutdown and all of us will be unemployed with the exception of a few dozen ANA guys)

The Astar pilots' words are 1) we are defending scope, 2) we are trying to force a merger, 3) Don't worry we can't carry the freight anyway.

If a judge rules in your favor, but realizing Astar can't instantaneously get 60 planes.....allows DHL 12 months to comply. (i.e. ABX will slowly be terminated) Will Astar pilots then have a job action to save our jobs? No, you guys will hit the lottery, double in size, and say "Sorry, Dude, that is too bad."


Everyone is say why can't we get along. But if you read what the words of ALPA lawsuit say, it is shocking we have gotten along this well. If someone came into my house and did this, they would not fair so well.

BY YOUR ACTIONS YOU ARE TRYING TO DESTROY US. BY YOUR WORDS YOU SAY YOU DON'T MEAN IT.

 

[penguin22]

Oops, you are right Eric. It was the Pres. prior to Pres. Pants. It's been awhile now. It was Nov. of 03. My bad. It was at the Heritage Resturant in Cincy. We filed, took a merger assessment, DHL sued, then ABX jumped on, and then the former Pres. said that at the Heritage. It's starting to be like playing telephone.

So the comment by our Pres that you’ve been using to justify your legal job grab was made AFTER you guys were already in court. Any self respecting union president would say the same thing to somebody who’s in court trying to steal our jobs

Here’s the timeline: You said yourself the comment was made Nov of 03, at the Heritage Restaurant

24. On June 16, 2003, ALPA sent a letter to John Fellows, CEO of DHL Holdings and DHL Worldwide.
25. Fellows responded to ALPA in an undated letter sent on or about June 27, 2003.
26. Pursuant to the correspondence referred to in paragraphs 24 and 25, a meeting was held on August 7 between representatives of DHL Holdings, DHL Worldwide, and ALPA.
27. At the conclusion of the meeting of August 7, 2003, the ALPA representatives handed the DHL representatives a letter and grievance dated August 7.
28. On August 11, 2003, DHL Holdings and DHL Worldwide filed a complaint against ALPA in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York.
29. On August 18, 2003, ALPA filed an Answer and Counter Claims for Immediate Injunctive Relief. ALPA also filed a motion for a temporary restraining order and a preliminary injunction. That entire action is now stayed pending resolution of the instant charge

 

[Cargoav8or]

"Exactly what does a striking Astar want from ABX?"[/quote]

For you not to deliver to cities that we alone serve, just as we would not serve cities served alone by you if you were to strike. Cities shared by us would only result in a TRO against you and I don't see how we could possibly fault you for doing a job ordered by a judge. And thats it.

 

[rotor&wing]

Thank God this forum only represents a very small minority opinion.

 

[scarface]

I think I'll get my guidance from IBT leadership. I believe they will have ABXs best interest at heart;I don't know if I feel that way about ASTAR. In fact I'm pretty sure I don't.

 

[Box-Hauler]

Ok Guys time to step back and calm down.

Yes there was and is a lawsuit filed by ALPA, one which Teamsters surely would have filed if the shoe was on the other foot, so we need to move on.

Best option now is to get the 2 locals together and sign something that agrees on combining the 2 groups. Also in the agreement there would be a strike support agreement. A strike agreement that will stop all freight going to any DHL city served by a member of the new group.

This will force DHL to deal with one pilot group. A group paid by 2 different people but one pilot entity. DHL is a business, they will realize that they in essence now have 1 airline but are paying for 2 management teams to run them. This will force a merger / buyout whatever. The pilots will not care because we already have our seniority issues worked out. Problem solved, DHL will come to realize that UPS and FedEx (both who used to use ACMI for lift) do know how to run express freight in the U.S. by using 1 airline.

If we do this then all of the pilots futures will be secured and we can then negotiate with the new management from a position of power. This could also be a way to bring in the other ACMI carriers in the US (polar / atlas) to get them in on the "one pilot list".

I am sure someone a lot smarter than I can figure out the details but if we as 2 separate groups join as one we can secure our own futures without relying on our respective management, which up to now has only been concerned with their own golden parachutes. This applies to ABX and Astar. Both management teams have shown no resolve in growing their side of DHL business.

Lets hear the flames.....:uzi:

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

Lets hear the flames.....:uzi:

A very sensible post. Well done.

 

[erichartmann]

Honestly guys, we don't need you to picket with us.

Glad you feel that way. I personally have no intention of picketing with you as things now stand. I will honoryour picket line to the letter of the law. I will also honor my union’s position on struck freight unless a court rules otherwise.

The lawsuit is irrelevant in this case. You just have to decide whether you want to be a scab or maintain your integrity. The lawsuit will continue. You and I, everyone for that matter, knows that no court will take your jobs from you and award them to us.

I am not so confident as you on what a judge may or may not do. The specifics of what was done and when have been quoted elsewhere and I will not restate them. I agree the lawsuit will continue. It is what it is. Personally, I will never forgive or forget, regardless of what happens. I may take no overt hostile action such as starting a jumpseat war, but I will remember. I will be professionally pleasant to those of you who ride my jumpseat, but I will not ride yours. Ever. I fully realize this is more of an inconvenience to me than to you, but it is a matter of personal pride to me that I accept no assistance of any kind from you. I do not wish to be a position of feeling I owe you anything. This too is matter of integrity.

You, your management are losing your jobs on your own with your spirit of noncooperation. Not performance, not fleet, cooperation. I know ABF knew how to do it. You have fought DHL at every turn, deicing, atc, "c" containers and the list goes on. This is info from first hand accounts of people who were at those meetings. I have even witnessed some of your boys while on a jumpseat stop short of the unloader and say "f**k DHL, they can move it themselves". Whether you like it or not you are employees and ABX does not call the shots.

While I cannot speak for anyone but myself I strive to do my job to the best of my ability every time I come to work. This means that if my flight leaves or arrives late it was due to circumstances completely beyond any control or preplanning on my part. This is a matter of both personal and professional pride to me.

It is no secret that DHL did a study on consolidation. They planned to park a certain number of aircraft when they bought ABF. It made sense for them to park the “C” container -9’s and the non door ABX -8’s. They don’t fit in with DHL’s desired system and the -8’s burn way to much fuel. Cooperation or non cooperation has nothing to do with it.

Dasburg in meetings has stated that he does not like many things DHL has done but he knows his place and is being rewarded for it. You are being slowly kicked to the curb from your own doing and the current situation with us is one more form on noncooperation. We have asked plenty of times, so now we make points and hope you notice. Seems you caught this one, good job.

Spare me. Somehow I don’t think cooperating with you on an ALPO strike against Astar and DHL is going to be seen by DHL in a favorable light.

I've never heard from any MEC member that the intent was to take a job from you. Our intent as described to me was that we did not want the sale at all. Unfortunately, alpa apparently had other motives and blunders. News flash, many of us dislike alpa as much as you, but the case has no choice but to continue on now. We must try to be made whole at least monetarily. I am sorry for the angst it has caused between the groups, but as shooter said, were not freight dogs because were all cuddly, or something to that effect.

Again, actions speak louder than words. The revisionist history and muddying of the waters that you and some of your peers have tried to do suggest you are embarrassed. If so, good. You should be. As a group I believe we have lost more than you. None of your aircraft have been parked. We are not flying to Europe in your stead. If your flying time has been reduced, well then, so has ours.

Flame away, I have no doubt you will. God forbid you should step back and take an honest assessment of the situation. None of us are better off against each other but if we have to be, I'm batting for Asstar.

Despite my personal feelings I’m intelligent and practical enough to recognize that mutual cooperation between our two groups would benefit both groups. That means a two way street. Others have posted ideas and broad outlines of plans on how we should proceed. I’m largely in agreement with them though I despise the need.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

DHL will come to realize that UPS and FedEx (both who used to use ACMI for lift) do know how to run express freight in the U.S. by using 1 airline.

Just to clarify a bit, UPS didn't abandon their use of ACMI carriers because it made any kind of financial or operational sense to do so. They did it because then-FAA chief Alan McArtor forced them to do it. At the time, McArtor was "on loan" to the FAA from FedEx, where he had been the VP of Airline Ops. A lot of people in the business felt he was on some "secret mission" to level the playing field between his former company and their biggest competitor, UPS. Having accomplished that, he returned to FedEx at the end of his tenure with the FAA.

Yes, UPS did have problems with some ACMI carriers in the early days, but they were probably no worse than the ones they dealt with when starting their own flight ops a couple years later.

The reason FedEx's 121 ops were kept in-house are a little more convoluted, and at this point, irrelevant. Employee-pilots (and their unions) are a fact of life at both carriers, and are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.

Nowdays, a significant percentage of both UPS and FedEx freight either begins or ends it's journey on an ACMI carrier of some sort. In addition, FedEx relies on independent contractors for a great deal of it's ground handling and delivery. If there were any benefits to cost or performance to be realized by bringing those contractors in-house, they would have done so by now.

 

[Box-Hauler]

Nowdays, a significant percentage of both UPS and FedEx freight either begins or ends it's journey on an ACMI carrier of some sort. In addition, FedEx relies on independent contractors for a great deal of it's ground handling and delivery. If there were any benefits to cost or performance to be realized by bringing those contractors in-house, they would have done so by now.

Agreed that some (small percentage) of the freight does begin on chartered aircraft.

UPS and FedEx use charter only where it makes sense and where the unions allow. (Small cities) areas of the country that cannot support a through stop. It makes no financial sense to fly a 727 into Trukee CA for 1 brown or purple delivery van of boxes. UPS and FedEx learned long ago that control of your aircraft, maintenance and pilot group is worth the cost.

If it was cheaper without loosing customers then UPS and FedEx would do it, but they don't. They control their own airlines to make sure that the express stuff gets to its destination on time, every time.

 

[shooter]

They control their own airlines to make sure that the express stuff gets to its destination on time, every time.

:nuts: What?? Are they nuts! Now why would an express operator want to provide service to their customers and care?

seriously though, the DHL mentality may just be that they don't care about service. I heard Astar people say that, but I did not believe it. And even if that were true for DHL NCG people (NCG really means= No Clue Group ), as a result they will NEVER be a player in the US. And why would Astar just buy into that thinking? The whole cut your nose off cliche. There is a car in the DHL admin lot you guys may walk by while going to the sims that has a KY plate (gee, wonder who that could be) that is custom to read L8FR8. Proud of that is he/she?

 

[FreightBumper]

:nuts: What?? Are they nuts! Now why would an express operator want to provide service to their customers and care?

seriously though, the DHL mentality may just be that they don't care about service. I heard Astar people say that, but I did not believe it. And even if that were true for DHL NCG people (NCG really means= No Clue Group ), as a result they will NEVER be a player in the US. And why would Astar just buy into that thinking? The whole cut your nose off cliche. There is a car in the DHL admin lot you guys may walk by while going to the sims that has a KY plate (gee, wonder who that could be) that is custom to read L8FR8. Proud of that is he/she?

They don't need to care if it's late or just doesn't get there. They are credited with a 99% performance bonus irregardless. They have a bye for all their delays, weather or mechanicals. That is the only way it could tally up close to 99%. Their own fooks have bragged about it on my jumpseats.