New AAI ALPA Strategy: Fire SWA Haters!

[Lear70]

The number that has been thrown around is north of 30k. And I think you would hard pressed to find too many SW pilots that would touch stock or stock options. Would Gary want to write a check that big? Probably not, he has the resources to do it though.

Interesting... Thanks for the insight.

How do you think, as part of some similar kind of scenario, your senior F/O's would respond to being pay protected at CA pay until they upgraded (or could upgrade and bypassed) if they ended up junior to AAI CA's who had a lesser DOH?

They'd still have senior QoL bidding power and would make CA wages. Even if it's 200 of your F/O's in that scenario, at an extra $100k a piece, that's $20 Million a year for 2-3 years (decreasing every month as upgrades happen, no bypassing or you lose the pay protection)...? Would that mollify the senior F/O's in your opinion? Or is it all about the seat, regardless of pay protection?

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty you might be the most disappointed AT Pilot out there and the most vocal. Your own kind (on your forum) are beggin you to stop....

You got the wrong guy. No AAI pilot has ever asked me to stop. . . I only pop up on here to counter the BS. Post some threads I have started. Let's see 'em.


When the list comes out, I can live with it, or live without it. Unlike most, I actually have that flexibility.

Why don't you try and make a list of what YOU might be getting out of this. We know you don't want anymore money (thats why you have a side business or why you voted to strike at your airline :cartman
....but just sit down and make a list of what Southwest brings to your life.

I bet its a long list. Let me start it for you: 113 Orders for new aircraft, 37 options and 98 Purchase rights.

I'm going to start on my Tranny list and what I get out of this deal.

I guess you forgot about all the -300's and -500 tuna cans need to be retired . . . . and how you had no growth for two years and no growth projected in the foreseeable future. How convenient.

Here's my list:

1) I get to fly with you, Baghdad Bob and Willi Nelson as my FO
2) I could be back on reserve for another $50K a year (not worth it)
3) I could go from an airline where every one is p.o.'d at management to an airline where every one is p.o.'d at the other pilot group.

Woo, fun! Can't wait. You guys make it seem soooooo worthwhile. :erm:

 

[PCL_128]

There is no doubt in my mind that he structured this deal with a nuclear ripcord. Two sub LCC's? You think he's paying that many legal fees just for fun?

No, he did it for tax advantages.

 

[Lear70]

I haven't seen one of those stickers so I doubt they are out there.

I saw exactly one in MCO, back in late April (it was a bag tag, not a sticker). Haven't seen one since, and I'm in your side of the terminal both in BNA and MCO twice a week, every week. I don't think there were very many of them, the "movement" never took off, quite obviously.

I haven't seen any of the "No Love" stickers I've heard about on here.

#2 is just asinine. Aai fo to Swa fo is a more substantial upgrade than aai fo to aai capt. If for no other reason than you still have yet another upgrade awaiting you. (Swa capt)

You might think so, but I think Ty's analysis of our list is pretty spot-on, although I'd separate the demographics a little more thoroughly, as I get the chance to talk with a LARGE cross-section of CA's and hear a lot of their personal positions and points (there's at least half a dozen sub-categories in the CA ranks).

I understand your F/O's don't want to see their upgrade times negatively impacted. But Ty's right that the senior F/O's here would not find getting stapled to the bottom of all your F/O's, even with the pay increase, a "fair and equitable" solution. Most of us aren't working on the same "just compare the money" perspective of the SLI outcome as most of your pilots are. Not to say your viewpoint is "wrong" or ours is "right", they're just two differing points of perspective that aren't going to get solved here.

IMHO, the bottom of our CA list and the top of our F/O list and the top and middle of your F/O list (all the similar DOH areas) is going to be the hardest piece to figure out.

 

[redflyer65]

Interesting... Thanks for the insight.

How do you think, as part of some similar kind of scenario, your senior F/O's would respond to being pay protected at CA pay until they upgraded (or could upgrade and bypassed) if they ended up junior to AAI CA's who had a lesser DOH?

They'd still have senior QoL bidding power and would make CA wages. Even if it's 200 of your F/O's in that scenario, at an extra $100k a piece, that's $20 Million a year for 2-3 years (decreasing every month as upgrades happen, no bypassing or you lose the pay protection)...? Would that mollify the senior F/O's in your opinion? Or is it all about the seat, regardless of pay protection?

Now those are some ideas. I like how you are throwing stuff out that might be outside the box.

Me personally? I could not careless about what seat I'm in as long as I'm compsenated well and have reasonible QOL. I've heard Ty on here say that his seat is very important to him. I take him at his word and he has every right to feel that way, that's just not the way I'm wired.

I wish I could speak to your senior FO scenerio. Maybe I'll ask around and see what people are thinking..

But I think you kinda hit the nail on the head with some kind of negotiated arrangement. We'll see.

 

[redflyer65]

I saw exactly one in MCO, back in late April (it was a bag tag, not a sticker). Haven't seen one since, and I'm in your side of the terminal both in BNA and MCO twice a week, every week. I don't think there were very many of them, the "movement" never took off, quite obviously.

I haven't seen any of the "No Love" stickers I've heard about on here.

That's good to know. I think the majority on the SW side will stay away those kinds of displays.

 

[redflyer65]

No, he did it for tax advantages.

Ahh, okay. So the tax advantage of two seperate LCC's (with the associated legal expenses for each) outweighs just combining AAI into SW?

Gary has thought two and three moves ahead, there is no way that would be accurate.

 

[Flycatcher99]

I saw exactly one in MCO, back in late April (it was a bag tag, not a sticker). Haven't seen one since, and I'm in your side of the terminal both in BNA and MCO twice a week, every week. I don't think there were very many of them, the "movement" never took off, quite obviously.

I haven't seen any of the "No Love" stickers I've heard about on here.


You might think so, but I think Ty's analysis of our list is pretty spot-on, although I'd separate the demographics a little more thoroughly, as I get the chance to talk with a LARGE cross-section of CA's and hear a lot of their personal positions and points (there's at least half a dozen sub-categories in the CA ranks).

I understand your F/O's don't want to see their upgrade times negatively impacted. But Ty's right that the senior F/O's here would not find getting stapled to the bottom of all your F/O's, even with the pay increase, a "fair and equitable" solution. Most of us aren't working on the same "just compare the money" perspective of the SLI outcome as most of your pilots are. Not to say your viewpoint is "wrong" or ours is "right", they're just two differing points of perspective that aren't going to get solved here.

IMHO, the bottom of our CA list and the top of our F/O list and the top and middle of your F/O list (all the similar DOH areas) is going to be the hardest piece to figure out.

I have not seen one "Hired, not Acquired" sticker, and have not seen any other anti-Air Tran sticker.

As for how AAI senior FOs feel versus SWA's, I can assure you that if, hypothetically, this whole acquisition fell through, there would be considerable angst on the AAI side, and considerable relief among SWA pilots. Similarly, you can go back to September and use comparitive reactions to the news as a good gauge of which pilot group this deal is immediately and ultimately good for. SWA was healthy as is, far moreso than AAI was in September. And pilot movement at SWA was coming from retirements, eradication of the Wright amendment, and future growth, albeit less than with AAI. What did AAI pilots have? Poor wages? Labor relation problems? Possible strike?

 

[Ty Webb]

What did AAI pilots have? Poor wages? Labor relation problems? Possible strike?

You can see whatever you want to see. Looking at your profile, I can see why you view things the way you do.

For me, I see an airline that tripled in size in ten years, and had been profitable for all but one of those years. . . . . and in probably the worst decade ever for deregulated airlines. . . . . I see an airline that had 24 more years to grow before we would be a 40 year old airline like SWA . . . Who knows where we could have been. I would have been in the top 1%, probably a senior int'l widebody CA.

Oh, I forgot, we were "on the ropes" and were "saved" by the grace of SWA and its magnaminous FO's, who ask for nothing more than my CA seat, in exchange for their goodwill and graciousness. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Some of you ostriches really need to pull your heads out.

 

[Flycatcher99]

You can see whatever you want to see. Looking at your profile, I can see why you view things the way you do.

For me, I see an airline that tripled in size in ten years, and had been profitable for all but one of those years. . . . . in probably the worst decades ever for deregulated airlines. . . . . I see an airline that had 24 more years to grow before we would be a 40 year old airline like SWA . . . Who knows where we could have been. I would have been in the top 1%, probably a senior int'l widebody CA.

Oh, I forgot, we were "on the ropes" and were "saved" by the grace of SWA and its magnaminous FO's, who ask for nothing more than my CA seat, in exchange for their goodwill and graciousness. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Some of you ostriches really need to pull your heads out.

I never said "on the ropes" or "saved by SWA". Don't put words in my mouth. I made a simple comparison of the pictures of employment between AAI pilots and SWA pilots. You cannot refute that AAI pilots were in the midst of a labor fiasco with management, or that the picture of your overall employment, when compared with that at SWA, was not good.

Yes, I'm a SWA pilot. Excellent work. My point remains that I would be hard pressed to find a SWA pilot who would not be personally relieved to see this deal go away, and you would be hard-pressed to find an AAI pilot who be fine with the acquisition going away.

You make the point that AAI had 24 years to grow before it was the a 40-year-old airline like SWA. Do you realize that in one sentence, you just encapsulated the feelings of every SWA pilot? Every AAI pilot is getting a 24-year jump in airline development, free of interview. You say AAI would have had 24 years to grow. SWA had not only to survive, but get to the point of thriving over that extra 24 years.

A little more thankfulness and a little less entitlement would suit you well.

 

[Tripower455]

I never said "on the ropes" or "saved by SWA". Don't put words in my mouth. I made a simple comparison of the pictures of employment between AAI pilots and SWA pilots. You cannot refute that AAI pilots were in the midst of a labor fiasco with management, or that the picture of your overall employment, when compared with that at SWA, was not good.

Yes, I'm a SWA pilot. Excellent work. My point remains that I would be hard pressed to find a SWA pilot who would not be personally relieved to see this deal go away, and you would be hard-pressed to find an AAI pilot who be fine with the acquisition going away.

I'm just making a general observation.

Exactly! It illustrates "career expectation" very clearly.

 

[PCL_128]

Ahh, okay. So the tax advantage of two seperate LCC's (with the associated legal expenses for each) outweighs just combining AAI into SW?

Gary has thought two and three moves ahead, there is no way that would be accurate.

You vastly overestimate the expense to have these separate subsidiaries. There is a reason that holding companies and multiple subsidiaries are normal business practices for thousands of American businesses.

 

[Ty Webb]

You cannot refute that AAI pilots were in the midst of a labor fiasco with management, or that the picture of your overall employment, when compared with that at SWA, was not good.

Uh, yes I can refute that, Chief. My employment was A-OK, and I was/am in the top third of our seniority list. A good place to be.

Yes, I'm a SWA pilot. Excellent work. My point remains that I would be hard pressed to find a SWA pilot who would not be personally relieved to see this deal go away, and you would be hard-pressed to find an AAI pilot who be fine with the acquisition going away.

Yes, and I can see that you are also an FO, and prior to that, you were a 1900 pilot. I'm sure you are happy as a pig in poo, and wish this would go away, too. :crying: It's actually a good deal for you, but you can't see it yet. Stay tuned. Wait a few years.

A little more thankfulness and a little less entitlement would suit you well.

Uh, yeah. And how many years of SWA seniority and industry experience do you have? Just like to know who I'm taking advice from. :erm:

 

[madjack]

Ty,

It is not YOUR Captain seat...you will hold whatever seat your negotiated/arbitrated seniority allows you to...that is true for all SWA pilots...if you ended up on the SWA CP list, you would be ahead of FOs who have more longevity at SWA then you do at AAI and you will get a substantial raise. If this is not good enough for you then by all means vote no and see what the arbitrator comes up with...but many SWA pilots would love to be facing the "dilemna" that you are facing...

You have helped build a worthy competitor in AAI, and your efforts are being rewarded by the SWA/AAI Acquisition...At the end of the day, you cannot compare the career you will enjoy at SWA vs the one you MAY have had at AAI...that is just as disingenuous as "complaining"about the avg 5K/mo raise you will receive when you begin working under our pay rates...I feel better knowing you only represent yourself...

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

It is not YOUR Captain seat...you will hold whatever seat your negotiated/arbitrated seniority allows you to...

Thanks for stating the obvious . . . . I'm still looking for your point. Read my posts. They all say I am willing to accept what the SLI folks come up with.

You can't definitively say what would have been without this merger, either. Perhaps we would have been bought by Alaska or Delta? Don't think SWA was the only one that saw the value of our operation.

 

[SWA/FO]

A little more thankfulness and a little less entitlement would suit you well.

exactly. :cartman:

 

[madjack]

Ty,

You have the law on your side and you will be MUCH better off at SWA than you would have been at any other pax carrier, you know you are getting a great deal via this acquisition, not saying you didn't earn it and that good fortune was not on your side...but your gain may come at the expense of SWA pilots that have been in this business as long as you and have served at SWA longer than you have served at AAI..ALL current SWA pilots helped build the company and the contract that will give you and your family a significant boost in wealth...

 

[shootr]

Ty,

You have the law on your side...

Wrong! The law is on both of our sides. Again, madjack, you are too pessimistic about arbitration. Fair and equitable does NOT have to mean relative/DOH. Fair and equtable with no windfall can mean many things. Just because lots of guys on the other side (and fake Delta guys) state what you fear as truth, that doesn't make it the truth or the future. Call your NC guys and they'll give you more confidence (which you seem to need). Right now you need to be strong - not weak.

shootr

 

[madjack]

shootr,

If there was no M/B we would not be having this discussion...it would go ala Morris...M/B strengthens the position of the pilots at the "weaker" carrier...not pessimistic, just realistic...anything other than preferential interviews, a type req't, and starting at the bottom is in my opinion a great deal no current SWA pilot (or employee) ever got...

 

[redflyer65]

I have to agree with shootr on this one. The gains on the AAI are so lopsided that the aribitor won't turn a blind eye a list that long. No fears of arbitration what-so-ever. Review the Air Midwest SLI where the arbitor states that the QOL/pay gap was too vast to pull a realitive seniority award.

Gary's got a handle on how far he's willing to let this slide, because he knows if he doesn't it will get ugly fast with 6000 upset SW pilots. Show me were in M/B that says all new orders can't come to SW (already happening), and were routes/cities on the Guadalupe side can't be dropped. I think you're gonna see some smaller AAI cities that might have been weak sisters might not make the cut it in the SW world. I hope we don't lose any combined cities, but to say it's not a possiblity is to stick your head in the sand. Just like SW could incure more 'shoulder cuts' over the off season.