NetJets Working on CASS Approval?

[glasspilot]

How does that make us any different than competing 121 carriers?

It could be argued that pilots from more profitable airline X are taking passengers (and food off the table) from less profitable airline Y. The fractionals are just another form of competition.

Now, reciprocity is another issue...

It doesn't make us any different. I wasn't arguing that we don't have a right to exist. Just pointing out that while we do spend quite a bit on airline tickets, airline guys don't see it as a boone to their sales.

We spend a lot, but take a lot more.

 

[PCL_128]

Anyway,

That's why (some of) those airline guys don't like us very much. We're taking food off the table.

Honestly, I hear very few airline guys say anything negative about the frac pilots. It's only when a small minority of your guys start acting holier-than-thou and telling us that we should be wiping down lavs and throwing bags to make their flight leave on time that we get pissed off.

 

[JungleJett]

That's why (some of) those airline guys don't like us very much. We're taking food off the table.

You mean we are taking peanuts and pretzels off their fold down tables. Oh..and the drink you pay for.

The people we move will always find a way to avoid the airlines.

telling us that we should be wiping down lavs and throwing bags to make their flight leave on time that we get pissed off.

I would be pissed to if someone had to come and tell me to do the job that should already be done.

I left the airlines specifically due to the declining state of affairs at the 121 carriers. The airplanes are getting dirtier..and no one seems to care. The flights are more delayed..and no one seems to care. The level of customer service is getting worse...and no one seems to care. The response now from a lot of airlines folks...you get what you pay for.

I really did not want to be part of that any longer. It was getting to the point of being embarrassed to tell people I flew for the airlines. When I did, I always got blasted with complaints and questions.

If it is me or another passenger, if a ticket was purchased..we have a contract. If you cannot keep up your end of the bargain, then maybe we should start getting money back for late flights, lost bags, dirty airplanes....ect.

 

[PCL_128]

Case in point.

 

[Willy21]

They do their job to their standards and we do our job to our standards. We are not going to change a thing by telling somebody my way of doing things is better than yours. So why don't we let this die.

 

[JungleJett]

Case in point.

You make a great case for why people...not just frac pilots... complain. Ignore the problems and they are not there. And you guys wonder why...

When I fly, I fly as a passenger, no different than anyone else in the back. I do not ask for anymore than what my purchased ticket affords me. Your problem is, that if a NJA pilot complains about something, then it must be because he is a NJA pilot...not a paying customer who chances are, has paid more that ticket than probably most people on that airplane.

In the future, I would recommend looking past what the person might or might not be wearing when they get on your flight. That person has bought or was bought a ticket on your airline and you OWE that person a certain level of service. If you cannot provide that service in a safe and timely manner, than you should not be in the business of moving people. Show me where I am wrong.

 

[JungleJett]

They do their job to their standards and we do our job to our standards. We are not going to change a thing by telling somebody my way of doing things is better than yours. So why don't we let this die.

I am not saying our way of doing things is better...it clearly is, but it comes at HUGE premium and it would be like comparing apples and oranges.

But to call out a dude because of "your guys" for complaining is typical. Shoot the messenger...and burn the message.

We are passengers...and we have every right to complain about substandard service. If PASSENGERS did not complain, then even less would get done.

This guy clearly cannot differentiate between a paying passenger and someone who happens to be wearing a crew uniform. It is like we do not have a right to complain.

 

[Willy21]

What I am trying to say is they don't understand. I didn't understand until I worked here. I would bet you didn't understand until you worked here. Service is missing at the airlines and they don't see it because they have not been shown a first class service operation. As long as the airlines try to be the biggest instead of saying, I want to be the best, then the service we see now is what we will get. It doesn't matter how much we complain. To them we will always be another pilot in uniform that should be great full to get a ride.

Someday an airline might get smart and try and sign an exclusive deal with NetJets. It would be kind of like Hilton. The company would look to that airline to book tickets on. 3,000 one way last minute tickets every week. That would make somebody a lot of money.

 

[PCL_128]

In the future, I would recommend looking past what the person might or might not be wearing when they get on your flight. That person has bought or was bought a ticket on your airline and you OWE that person a certain level of service.

No, I don't owe them that level of service, the company I work for does. I am one cog in the machine. I do my job, and to the best of my ability. My job is not to wipe down lavs. My job is not to throw bags. If those things aren't getting done, don't bitch to me about it, bitch to the company I work for that isn't providing the service that you expect.

 

[JungleJett]

No, I don't owe them that level of service, the company I work for does. I am one cog in the machine. I do my job, and to the best of my ability. My job is not to wipe down lavs. My job is not to throw bags. If those things aren't getting done, don't bitch to me about it, bitch to the company I work for that isn't providing the service that you expect.

I cannot believe you actually wrote this let alone believe it to be even remotely true. Wow...you are really detached from reality but it is precisely this sort of attitude that is causing the utter failure of any sort of decent service.

YOU DO OWE THEM THAT LEVEL OF SERVICE. YOU ARE THE COMPANY!!! You openly admit that you are part of the machine..what if that part breaks? How does the rest of the machine work? You and your FA's ARE the face of the company and you bought into that when you got hired by Airtran. It is YOUR airplane that is dirty and I would be willing to bet somewhere in your AFM it talks about airplane cleanliness. When I was an airline guy, I wiped down lavs and threw bags. I did what it took to make sure people had a good experience or to get the flight out on time. I did not want MY COMPANY to look bad. I guess you don't care...but that is why the airlines are doing so poorly...I guess you are above menial labor.

Wow...I am still stunned you wrote that. Thanks for confirming a lot of things though.

 

[JungleJett]

Willy...

Your right...

 

[PCL_128]

When I was an airline guy, I wiped down lavs and threw bags.

Ridiculous.

 

[JungleJett]

Ridiculous.

Thanks for validating the rest of my post.

Enjoy your continued failures....hey, but what do you care, it's not your job!

Let the adults talk from here on out....

 

[amaineiac]

Jungle Jet, as a past airline employee, and current NetJets pilot, I have to disagree with you.

In my opinion, what makes us the best aviation company out there, is that management gives us the tools to get the job done.

If the planes dirty, pay someone to clean it. If it's missing stock, buy some. If we need services asap, whip out some more cash till it gets done. It's all reimbursed, and we know the company will pay us back without blinking an eye.....we do what it takes because we know management will back us up to do what it takes to get the job done.

Compare that to when I worked at the airlines. Nobody gives a crap, and that attitude starts from the top and goes down hill.

In the year or so I've worked here, I've said the words "I'm sorry" less than I usually did in 1 day while at the airlines. This is not an exaggeration.

At the airline I worked for, and I'm guessing it's that way at most of them, my job as a captain was to ensure I get people from A to B safely, comfortably, and on time. In that order, per the ops specs. They had people to clean lavs, toss bags, park us, cater us, etc. If they didn't show up, I would call ops till they sent someone. That was in my ops specs too. If I helped out and got hurt while tossing bags, I would have been SOL. Never mind a thank you, I probably would have gotten in trouble for doing it. Never mind the union issues involved in doing someone else's job.

Look at it this way, lets say it takes a crew of 5 to turn a plane. Toss bags, clean, cater, etc. Now 1 guy calls in sick, and because of your standard mismanagement, they didn't have anyone to cover for the sick guy. You bust your butt and help out this day. The flight leave on time. Guess what happens next? The 5 man crew goes down to 4 on a regular basis since it's obvious that it only takes 4 guy to turn a plane on time. "Hey look boss, I just saved some money, now I can justify another management bone-us"

Like most frac guys, I feel that airlining is the worst part of this job. The dirty planes, crappy service, delays, etc etc. There is plenty of blame to go around for the sorry state of the airlines, but I have a hard time recalling any crappy flight that was caused by the cabin/cockpit crew.

I paid for a ticked and expect to be treated like any other pax, but more often then not, I get tossed a free bottle of water, snack or get moved to first class without even asking. I'm very appreciative of that, but certainly don't expect it.

I knew this job entailed cleaning and tossing bags and going the extra mile. I enjoy doing it because I know I directly impact the passengers experience. While at the airlines I would go the extra mile and it was useless 98% of the time. I'd bust my butt, skip meals, take short cuts etc just to make up some time so they could make their connection, only to show up and have to wait 10 minutes for rampers, and another 5 for a gate agent. After a few years of banging my head against the wall, I gave up and just did my job. Aint My Responsibility became a way of life. That's not the way I like to operate, so I finally had enough and was fortunate enough to be able to get out.

 

[JungleJett]

ama...

I agree with 99% of your post..

Sometimes it takes just a little extra effort to get a flight out on time..or to make it more pleasant. Not a herculean effort, just something.

All because management fails does not mean we have too. Why punish the pax for those failures?

It was not like I did it on a daily basis, but if it needed to get done or it would impact our departure, then I felt obligated.

 

[brokeflyer]

No, I don't owe them that level of service, the company I work for does. I am one cog in the machine. I do my job, and to the best of my ability. My job is not to wipe down lavs. My job is not to throw bags. If those things aren't getting done, don't bitch to me about it, bitch to the company I work for that isn't providing the service that you expect.

Keep it up, you make us look better.

 

[fischman]

Honestly, I hear very few airline guys say anything negative about the frac pilots. It's only when a small minority of your guys start acting holier-than-thou and telling us that we should be wiping down lavs and throwing bags to make their flight leave on time that we get pissed off.

For the record, I didn't "tell" you to do that. It was a suggestion to improve the experience of your pax. I also suggested opening up the strollers for parents traveling with small kids, and helping lost pax find their gate.

You and laserman just keep up the mediocre job you've been doing. As I said, it is sending your first class pax our way. I'll be happy to do the job you are too good for.

 

[fischman]

No, I don't owe them that level of service, the company I work for does. I am one cog in the machine. I do my job, and to the best of my ability. My job is not to wipe down lavs. My job is not to throw bags. If those things aren't getting done, don't bitch to me about it, bitch to the company I work for that isn't providing the service that you expect.

You represent that company. You and the company reflect on each other. Take a good look in that reflection and honestly tell me you like what you see? Are you proud of a dirty airplane? Or are you simply proud of the fact that you got your pax to their destination? Does it bother you that an average 10% of pax bags don't make it? As a paying passenger NOTHING makes me more upset than that. I'd rather be delayed or cancelled than lose my bags.

Getting back to the lav. If everyone would clean it just once a day, it wouldn't get so nasty. It REALLY isn't that big of a deal. Honestly, who's holier than thou???

It has been said that if you do these extra things for you company, you don't get to see anything for it. But you do! If management would change the corporate culture so everyone tried (anything!) JUST A LITTLE, your airline would start to stand out. People will notice. You would gain job security. Who in the 121 world REALLY has that?

I wish you and your carrier luck. If everyone else shares your ideals, you are going to need it.:beer:

 

[amaineiac]

ama...

I agree with 99% of your post..

Sometimes it takes just a little extra effort to get a flight out on time..or to make it more pleasant. Not a herculean effort, just something.

All because management fails does not mean we have too. Why punish the pax for those failures?

It was not like I did it on a daily basis, but if it needed to get done or it would impact our departure, then I felt obligated.

I agree, and I never punished the pax. I always kept them informed and helped them any way I could. I just gave up with calling ops 20 times for this and that. Towards the end, I also stopped apologizing for things that were not my fault. I just stated the fact that we were late due to _____

The negativity and hatred that is fostered due to the mismanagement is so toxic. I didn't realize how much so until I left.

 

[PCL_128]

You represent that company.

I have my own job to do, and as I said, I do it to the best of my ability. If the company screws up things that aren't in my job description, then that's on them, not on me.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You represent that company. You and the company reflect on each other. Take a good look in that reflection and honestly tell me you like what you see? Are you proud of a dirty airplane? Or are you simply proud of the fact that you got your pax to their destination? Does it bother you that an average 10% of pax bags don't make it? As a paying passenger NOTHING makes me more upset than that. I'd rather be delayed or cancelled than lose my bags.

Getting back to the lav. If everyone would clean it just once a day, it wouldn't get so nasty. It REALLY isn't that big of a deal. Honestly, who's holier than thou???

It has been said that if you do these extra things for you company, you don't get to see anything for it. But you do! If management would change the corporate culture so everyone tried (anything!) JUST A LITTLE, your airline would start to stand out. People will notice. You would gain job security. Who in the 121 world REALLY has that?

I wish you and your carrier luck. If everyone else shares your ideals, you are going to need it.:beer:

The problem with your ideals is most companies will exploit it....

It is one thing to pick up a little slack and wipe down the potty, but how'd would you like it to become your responsibility? Without an increase in pay? Then, where does it end...

I think 90% of us agree with you in principle, but the reality is different...

 

[Pervis]

I have my own job to do, and as I said, I do it to the best of my ability. If the company screws up things that aren't in my job description, then that's on them, not on me.

Just curious, but what decade were you born in? Serious question. I was on a SWA through flight and noticed their cockpit crew were glad to come on back and help out the FAs. Certainly not part of their job description, but they were team players. Everyone contributed to make it happen. Not much of that going around lately, it would seem. At least in your jet.

 

[PCL_128]

The problem with your ideals is most companies will exploit it....

Exactly. This is exactly what happened with our FAs. We had cabin cleaners in the hubs, and then a few years ago, the company realized that the FAs were all cleaning the cabin on turns when cleaners didn't show up. Suddenly cabin cleaners became few and far between, and FAs were left to clean the cabin pretty much every time. It became expected of them. The FAs had to resort to getting language put in their agreement that specifically states that they aren't responsible for cleaning the cabin in hub cities.

The company doesn't appreciate your extra efforts. They'll exploit them.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Honestly, I hear very few airline guys say anything negative about the frac pilots. It's only when a small minority of your guys start acting holier-than-thou and telling us that we should be wiping down lavs and throwing bags to make their flight leave on time that we get pissed off.

It amazes me that any airlines are still in business.

If we talked to one of our Owners like 121 guys are speaking to us on this board, we'd be fired.

"The customer is always right... Yeah right", says the airline employee.

In this case, it might not be true but we certainly know more about a 121 pilot's job description that the average passenger.

The same can be said about several of our Owners who are pilots. I can assure you 100% that any intelligent aviation knowledge question or suggestion is taken in stride and answered with tact by NetJets Pilots from our pilot-Owners.

Ego checked at the door. It's just not worth it to be right but end up wrong as a result.

You know... it used to be bad enough when agents and rampers started treating pax like garbage. I never thought I'd see the day when pilots did the same. Congrats on shocking me.

Love,

One of your Customers

 

[FLYLOW22]

Getting back to the lav. If everyone would clean it just once a day, it wouldn't get so nasty. It REALLY isn't that big of a deal. Honestly, who's holier than thou???

:beer:

Touche' Putty Cat!! Ouch!!

IMHO, when you compare the work done by a NetJets pilot on a typical flight against an airline flight, the airline guy wouldn't be able to keep up.

Ask me how I know.... I call them New Hires. i see it all the time. They adapt (I did too) with time and patience and sometimes a bit of a kick in the ass.

Maybe the "attitude" that 121 guys are perceiving from NJA pilots is really just amazement that airlines still exist with the level of laziness, feelings of entitlement and self serving actions displayed by more than a few 121 employees providing transportation services to us (as paying Customers) when we travel.

It's really shockingly amazing that several of these companies still exist in the marketplace.

 

[JungleJett]

PCL..

You are perfect for the job you perform. The results of your efforts, or lack thereof, are clearly evident to the traveling public.

When I came over from the airlines, it was a bit of a culture shock, but I really did not need to adapt...it really was not that. What I did learn was that with a little extra effort and showing the people you are flying that you actually care about them will bring personal and professional rewards which is something that I painfully watch wash away in the final years of my airline career.

The problem is that you have only seen one side of the equation where many of us see both. A lot of us have been airline pilots while very, very few of you have been with NJA. I do not expect the level of service that NJA offers while flying on the airlines. I am not so naive as to think it could happen. As I said before, I owners pay a HUGE premium to fly the way they do. What I do expect are some pretty basic things from the airlines...and they are continually failing to meet any sort of level of service.

By the way, my distaste for airline flying began way before I left. I commuted for 8 years and dealt with all the time as a "pax". I also non-rev'ed and saw the death spiral there as well.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Just curious, but what decade were you born in? Serious question. I was on a SWA through flight and noticed their cockpit crew were glad to come on back and help out the FAs. Certainly not part of their job description, but they were team players. Everyone contributed to make it happen. Not much of that going around lately, it would seem. At least in your jet.

SWA is the one company that doesn't exploit in employees... they don't have to ask, or push their employees to help out... the employees do so because they trust their management to respect them...

It amazes me that any airlines are still in business.

Like totally amazing!

If we talked to one of our Owners like 121 guys are speaking to us on this board, we'd be fired.

And yet you don't work for a 121 carrier...

"The customer is always right... Yeah right", says the airline employee.

So the onus is ont he airline employee to turn a profit and run a successful airline? What do the execs do?

In this case, it might not be true but we certainly know more about a 121 pilot's job description that the average passenger.

Then you know it doesn't include changing out honey pots and restocking crackers...

The same can be said about several of our Owners who are pilots. I can assure you 100% that any intelligent aviation knowledge question or suggestion is taken in stride and answered with tact by NetJets Pilots from our pilot-Owners.

Perhaps because they are owners...

Ego checked at the door. It's just not worth it to be right but end up wrong as a result.

You know... it used to be bad enough when agents and rampers started treating pax like garbage. I never thought I'd see the day when pilots did the same. Congrats on shocking me.

So what type of support do you get from management? Whip out your little pager and send a message that a certain level is service is required and it will more than likely get done...

Love,

One of your Customers

Perhaps you haven't been IN a 121 cockpit lately.. Many pilots are still trying to serve the customers however, we are not getting the support from the company... what do you suggest?

IMHO, when you compare the work done by a NetJets pilot on a typical flight against an airline flight, the airline guy wouldn't be able to keep up.

You are probably right... flying into uncontrolled GA airports and cleaning cabins isn't a 121 pilots realm.

But it seems that many 121 pilots successfully come over to NJA... so what is the deal?

Maybe the "attitude" that 121 guys are perceiving from NJA pilots is really just amazement that airlines still exist with the level of laziness, feelings of entitlement and self serving actions displayed by more than a few 121 employees providing transportation services to us (as paying Customers) when we travel.

It's really shockingly amazing that several of these companies still exist in the marketplace.

Again, we don't have the support from our managements.... the issue is much more complex...

Glad planty of 121 guys could find good employment at NJA...

 

[PCL_128]

By the way, my distaste for airline flying began way before I left. I commuted for 8 years and dealt with all the time as a "pax". I also non-rev'ed and saw the death spiral there as well.

You don't seem to understand. I'm not telling you that I like the service the airlines provide. I commuted for over five years. It was a miserable experience, and I would never try to claim that the airlines provide good service. What I am trying to tell you is that it isn't right for guys like you to blame the crewmembers for this lack of service. We are the ones doing our jobs. It's the management hacks that aren't doing theirs. They understaff, overwork, and generally disrespect their employees. The airplane you ride on isn't clean because management refuses to provide the cabin cleaners that are necessary to get it done. Your can of Coke now costs a buck instead of being free because management is so woefully incompetent that this is the only way they think they can generate revenue. Your bags are lost because management refuses to provide enough ramp staffing, so the rampers are constantly in a state of panic trying to get things done, and many bags fall through the cracks.

So, all I'm telling you is to place the blame in the proper place: with incompetent and corrupt airline management that simply doesn't care about the service that you are receiving, as long as they get a bigger bonus at the end of the year. Stop blaming the crews and expecting us to correct everything that management screws up.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

Your right!!!!

It was a factual statement. Some airlines consider the exit row an "upgrade" and charge accordingly. We as normal passengers are not entitled to free upgrades just like any other passenger, and I am not going to pay $25 of my own money to sit in an exit row. I am also going to avoid sitting in the dual exit rows that do not recline. Try not to have heartburn over it. Besides, there's nothing your rep can do about my company pursuing CASS. That's a jumpseat agreement thing; I'm sure you understand the difference. If your FAs need able-bodied assitance then I'm sure they can ask us for it, just like what happened with me yesterday.

Your right imacdog, more and more airlines are charging for certain seats. Example, Delta now charges an added fee to sit in the exit row, window and isle seat. Oh yhea, they charge for any bag you check and they call it excess bag charge starting at the first bag. I wonder if they are still saying it is because of the high cost of fuel.
I like the fact that some of the 121 pilot community thinks I am are jumpseating and advise that I need to check-in with them the next time I fly in the back of their plane. It sure is fun to educate them about my status and tell them I am a business elite customer. I do it with a smile and certainly not with any negative tone. It is funny how it's their plane when they think I am a jumpseater, but it's company's when something goes wrong.

 

[fischman]

PCL_128,

Make all the excuses you want. Management is hundreds, sometimes thousands of miles away. YOU are the one on the front lines. YOU are the one who can make a difference. YOU are the one choosing not to.

It is YOUR choice if you want to go the extra mile to help your airline SURVIVE.

Or do nothing.