NetJets Working on CASS Approval?

[PCL_128]

 

[fischman]

Perhaps you haven't been IN a 121 cockpit lately.. Many pilots are still trying to serve the customers however, we are not getting the support from the company... what do you suggest?

FWIW, I have made several suggestions (besides providing basic sanitation). They have all been laughed at.

 

[fischman]

Looks like I know what to expect at airtran... Sorry I couldn't convince you. Good luck.

 

[PCL_128]

Looks like I know what to expect at airtran... Sorry I couldn't convince you. Good luck.

I'm actually pretty proud of the product we provide. Our stews are generally pretty friendly and helpful, the planes are all new, every seat has XM radio, etc... But if you expect me to toss bags to get the flight out 5 minutes earlier, then yeah, you should probably stick with chartering your own airplane.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

PCL_128 doesn't get it

I cannot believe you actually wrote this let alone believe it to be even remotely true. Wow...you are really detached from reality but it is precisely this sort of attitude that is causing the utter failure of any sort of decent service.

YOU DO OWE THEM THAT LEVEL OF SERVICE. YOU ARE THE COMPANY!!! You openly admit that you are part of the machine..what if that part breaks? How does the rest of the machine work? You and your FA's ARE the face of the company and you bought into that when you got hired by Airtran. It is YOUR airplane that is dirty and I would be willing to bet somewhere in your AFM it talks about airplane cleanliness. When I was an airline guy, I wiped down lavs and threw bags. I did what it took to make sure people had a good experience or to get the flight out on time. I did not want MY COMPANY to look bad. I guess you don't care...but that is why the airlines are doing so poorly...I guess you are above menial labor.

Wow...I am still stunned you wrote that. Thanks for confirming a lot of things though.

As I said in another post JungleJett, guys like PCL_128 say it's "their" plane when things are good or they have to put on their hat and play pilot. Yet, when things go wrong it's the company's fault or it's someone elses problem. The crew is part of the company, problem and solution.
I'm with you about pitching in when times call for it. I never did the lav, but I did load bags, check-in pax and escorted them too. I even did my own windows when a station was busy. Hey, I need to see out of them not the ground crew. All this was while flying a Dash 8-300. So it wasn't a light twin or single. In the military things like that were done daily so I guess that prepared me for the civil side. Guys like PCL_128 forget what it takes to get a job done; they just enter the plane, turn left and camp until it's time to look for pretty women at the end of the trip in sunny Florida.
I am sure PCL_128 or others will try to tell me what they use to do, but what do they do now at their current job? That's what we are talking about. I know there are pilots out there that don't think other tasks are beneath them and lend assistance when it's needed. Hell, I've seen it happen.

 

[fischman]

I'm actually pretty proud of the product we provide.

sigh.....

It saddens me that you think Airtran (and every other 121 carrier) provides a product to be proud of. That is why most of them are in chapter 11 or 7.

You shouldn't be.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

This message is for ya

You don't seem to understand. I'm not telling you that I like the service the airlines provide. I commuted for over five years. It was a miserable experience, and I would never try to claim that the airlines provide good service. What I am trying to tell you is that it isn't right for guys like you to blame the crewmembers for this lack of service. We are the ones doing our jobs. It's the management hacks that aren't doing theirs. They understaff, overwork, and generally disrespect their employees. The airplane you ride on isn't clean because management refuses to provide the cabin cleaners that are necessary to get it done. Your can of Coke now costs a buck instead of being free because management is so woefully incompetent that this is the only way they think they can generate revenue. Your bags are lost because management refuses to provide enough ramp staffing, so the rampers are constantly in a state of panic trying to get things done, and many bags fall through the cracks.

So, all I'm telling you is to place the blame in the proper place: with incompetent and corrupt airline management that simply doesn't care about the service that you are receiving, as long as they get a bigger bonus at the end of the year. Stop blaming the crews and expecting us to correct everything that management screws up.

This message is "on the wire", just like a TOW missile, for you PCL_128.
I seems you blame everyone else for everything that is wrong while your at work. You are the face of the company when the customer is stuck in that tube. Aside from the ticket and gate agents; tag, you and the FAs are it. You are part of the customer service network.
You need to take more pride in your airline and remember interacting with the public is your job. When a delay happens then go out and talk to the pax via the PA in the cabin. Don't hide in the pointy end. I am talking about a hard, it's down delay and not one where you can not leave your desk. I am not saying you have to get out there and sling bags, but if you see your short-staffed ramp crew needs help then burn some fat cells and getter done. Or help out in the cabin when an FA needs it. Leading by example goes a long way; trust me when I say I have and still practice what I preach.
Now if you truly believe your soul job is strickly up in the pointy end then your right when you say you do you job. If management is as bad as you write and the conditions are as negative as you write then leave. It's only a job, right?

 

[PCL_128]

It saddens me that you think Airtran (and every other 121 carrier) provides a product to be proud of. That is why most of them are in chapter 11 or 7.

Actually, we're projecting a $76 million profit next year, which would be the highest in the company's history. But thanks for your concern.

If your attitude is representative of the rest of the Frac pilots, then I'm extremely happy that I didn't apply to Netjets like I was thinking of doing.

 

[Diesel]

Actually, we're projecting a $76 million profit next year, which would be the highest in the company's history. But thanks for your concern.

Didn't airtran furlough in 2008?

 

[JungleJett]

then I'm extremely happy that I didn't apply to Netjets like I was thinking of doing.

You would never make it here...ever...so it is a good thing you did not apply, you would have soon been looking for another job.

I am guessing a few things..big pilot school product, daddy paid your way, never worked another job in your life, went to work for the regional's with min time, upgraded way before you should have, knew someone at Airtran and got hired making peanuts (and being fed them for crew meals). Am I close? By the way, what do you think ALPA is going to do for you? You do know their record in the past 10 years right?

 

[JungleJett]

Didn't airtran furlough in 2008?

Yes...and stock is at about 5 bucks.

 

[QOL_is_great:)]

They did and hope they get back soon.

Didn't airtran furlough in 2008?

Over 160 on the street unless they recalled within the last couple of weeks.

 

[PCL_128]

Didn't airtran furlough in 2008?

Recalling 35 this month (first class starts this week) and another 40-60 in the next few months. Probably have everyone back by the end of the summer with the possibility of hiring before the year is out.

 

[PCL_128]

You would never make it here...ever...so it is a good thing you did not apply, you would have soon been looking for another job.

:laugh: Wow. Some of you guys really are a bunch of pompous asses. I've got news for you: your crap stinks, too.

Am I close?

Not really.

By the way, what do you think ALPA is going to do for you? You do know their record in the past 10 years right?

I was an ALPA rep for a while, so yeah, I'm very familiar with ALPA. Looking forward to having their support again.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Okay boys. Simmer down. I come from a "bi" household. I'm a lifelong corporate and now Netjet guy and she's a career airline type at a major airline soon to pass (sadly) into the history books. Both jobs have their rewards and both have their "challenges." I think it is kind of of pointless to rip each other up simply because our careers took different paths and we all would like to able to defend the choices we have made (even if we might secretly regret a few of them).

Especially since this thread WAS ABOUT NETJETS' APPLICATION TO JOIN CASS.

Which, by the way, will be approved eventually. And, once again, this is about forcing TSA to recognize fractional pilots as fully vetted crewmembers that pose no security threat to the system. It is NOT about the jumpseat.

Resume bashing if you must.

 

[brokeflyer]

Actually, we're projecting a $76 million profit next year, which would be the highest in the company's history. But thanks for your concern.

If your attitude is representative of the rest of the Frac pilots, then I'm extremely happy that I didn't apply to Netjets like I was thinking of doing.

Quit complaining and take pride in your work. That is your problem, you think the world owes you something.

As a captain id hope that you would know the condition of your plane reflects upon YOU. saying "it isnt my job" is exactly why you wouldnt make it at netjets.

I wish you would have come here, I would take pride in changing your life for the better.

 

[PCL_128]

Quit complaining and take pride in your work.

I do take pride in my work. Not in someone else's.

I wish you would have come here, I would take pride in changing your life for the better.

Another pompous ass. Seems to be a trend.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Oh boy. point and counter point time...

A few responses...

SWA is the one company that doesn't exploit in employees... they don't have to ask, or push their employees to help out... the employees do so because they trust their management to respect them...

So too at NetJets. Wasn't always so though.




And yet you don't work for a 121 carrier...

I'm a recovered 121 pilot.


So the onus is ont he airline employee to turn a profit and run a successful airline? What do the execs do?

Who cares. Either you have responsible management that has a business plan or you don't. All you can do is a) your job, b) STFD, or c) leave. Your choice...

Then you know it doesn't include changing out honey pots and restocking crackers...

We don't change honeypots. We order it to be done by professional ramp agents that we tip well for it. It's a mutually beneficial agreement. Yes... I do restock pringles, Oreos, Jelly Bellies, hard candies, energy bars, trail mix bags, etc. on occasion. I eat my fair share too. Yum. I love it when I catch an Owner opening the snack drawer just to see what's there. Whether they have something or not, I know they appreciate having the drawer stocked. It helps them.... you know... become repeat Owners. Another mutually beneficial arrangement.

Perhaps because they are owners...

It's Owners with a capital O. Callit what you will... accountants call it revenue. And yes, I am revenue for your company when I travel. Owner, no. Thank God. Again, if you think you are influencing me to think positively about the airlines by your words, think again. If I spoke to an Owner like you speak to me (a customer) I'd be fired.



So what type of support do you get from management? Whip out your little pager and send a message that a certain level is service is required and it will more than likely get done...
Support? Anything we need to make the Owner happy (within reasonable parameters). Nothing is off limits to work towards so long as it is SAFE. Pager? No. A quick phone call to the appropriate level (if time allows). Many times, there is no time. I just do it and submit for expenses. It gets paid. The company may ask for clarification but the conversation ALWAYS ends with, "Oh. Great! Nice job. Thanks."

Perhaps you haven't been IN a 121 cockpit lately.. Many pilots are still trying to serve the customers however, we are not getting the support from the company... what do you suggest?

Nope. I'm sure you ARE trying. The biggest adjustment that 121 pilots have to make when going Frax is adjusting to an environment that expects the pilot to provide "service" with nothing to back it up. No support or funding for anything outside of the bix. The Chief Pilot or Regional Director of Flying at one of my former lives was perfectly happy dodging questions and flying jumbo jets once a month for $400,000 year. He was an overpaid spond doctor... not someone I would go to to get support for customer service approval. I know the feeling... nobody you deal with wants responsibility or has the authorization to make a call but plenty are ready to take authoity, until something bad happens. Then they point at you. One of many reasons I won't work 121 anymore.

You are probably right... flying into uncontrolled GA airports and cleaning cabins isn't a 121 pilots realm.

Nope. Our crews have Owner approval rated in the high 99% though in customer service surveys. I'm sure that clean cabins might have something to do with that. Again though, cabin cleaning is something we usually order done... then we leave a tip.

But it seems that many 121 pilots successfully come over to NJA... so what is the deal?


I did. And I chose to be an SIC 1t before accepting upgrade not so that I could learn to be a PIC. I did it so that I could learn the SYSTEM over here before being made responsible for it. I'm glad I did.


Again, we don't have the support from our managements.... the issue is much more complex...

It's complex? No. Not really. Pilots fighting each other. Management fighting pilots. Pilot fighting management. Pilots fighting the Union. The Union fighting the Union...

...Management turnover that consists of a few disticnt stages.
1) Introduction (empty promises that include aircraft orders).
2) Betrayal
3) Golden Parachute... and not for employees
4) Repeat

...A transportation system that is in a total state of denial that the party is over and has been over for years. The money has been made and the only place to go is consolidation to a few survivors. Cabotage is next. Not a great picture really. What is there to fight for? One could "pay their dues" for decades and never make decent pay.

Glad planty of 121 guys could find good employment at NJA...

Some have. I actually know more pilots that got out of aviation altogether than those that stayed in though. Sad though.

 

[PCL_128]

So the Netjets pretty boys tip someone else to clean the lav and clean the cabin, but they expect us 121 guys to do it ourselves? I think not. Maybe VOR is right about you guys.

 

[FLYLOW22]

So the Netjets pretty boys tip someone else to clean the lav and clean the cabin, but they expect us 121 guys to do it ourselves? I think not. Maybe VOR is right about you guys.

Are you advocating that I should handle a dirty lav and then catering?

 

[PCL_128]

Are you advocating that I should handle a dirty lav and then catering?

No, I'm advocating that your fellow Netjets pilots stop telling me to wipe down the lav and clean the cabin for them.

 

[brokeflyer]

So the Netjets pretty boys tip someone else to clean the lav and clean the cabin, but they expect us 121 guys to do it ourselves? I think not. Maybe VOR is right about you guys.

lol give it up man, you don't get it.

Keeping the "value" in valujet.....

 

[FLYLOW22]

No, I'm advocating that your fellow Netjets pilots stop telling me to wipe down the lav and clean the cabin for them.

Wiping the lav down and dumping a honeypot are 2 very different things. I do frequently wipe the lave down... and the interiors.

 

[fischman]

No, I'm advocating that your fellow Netjets pilots stop telling me to wipe down the lav and clean the cabin for them.

Does that hurt your feelings when I tell you your plane is a disgusting mess???

Grow up and take pride in your work.

You are misunderstanding what flylow is saying. We tip line service to change out the blue juice. We wipe down the lav ourselves. In extreme cases we can get the company to bring on professional cleaners. Usually it is a 30 second wipe down.

FWIW, I agree with JungleJett. You wouldn't make it over here.

 

[JungleJett]

My crap does stink....smells like good crew food, sometimes steak..sometimes the good omelets I order as a crew meal.

It always smells like success...respect...hard work....and a sense of satisfaction and ownership in a world class product. You?

To the ignore list you go.



Fly...a recovered 121 pilot...that's AWESOME! I keep putting some salve on it and it is starting to go away!

 

[waveflyer]

Part of what makes our unions lose credibility is we lack leverage due to a lack of credibility. It's called leadership.
If my customer needs a stroller from down below- i'll go get it. If a wheelchair needs to be pushed- i'll do that. Cleaning down the lav- i'm a 121 legacy airline pilot and do that all the time for no other reason than it bugs the he!! out of me to imagine a customer using it if it's not.

I've had union reps TRY to get on me for doing someone else's work- I tell them quickly that i believe in working hard-and if i can make their job easier, i'm glad to do it. I think of the customer- and making sure that everyone around me knows that i'll do whatever it takes to satisfy them. That's a contageous attitude. Pilots, as leaders, have a responsibility to act this way. We are the most leveraged in any airline- why any pilot would want to foster an attitude of "that's not my job!", i have no idea. It's very self-defeating. If the lowliest ramper sees me getting my hands dirty for the customer- they'll have no valid excuse in their own mind for being lazy. That's a good thing for everyone.

I don't mind working hard at all. What i mind is not getting paid for that work- and having the earnings off that work stolen by over-paid execs. But guess what?= a union negotiation is a VERY political ordeal. If we are viewed as uptight premadonna's vs. intelligent and hard-working- we will have a MUCH harder time in those negotiations. OUR IMAGE MATTERS.

 

[Flopgut]

Folks, I've come back to this thread and I'll try to be more respectful.

I have got to stick up for PCL here.

Are you guys actually ragging on him because you doubt his willingness to prostrate and kow tow to a wealthy, overindulged traveler is sufficient to NJA standards? You guys want to rethink that as being such a bad thing?

I'm sure PCL could cut the gig where I work. And let's just say we aren't worried about whether or not the guy in 3B has the Weekend Journal.

 

[Flopgut]

Quit complaining and take pride in your work. That is your problem, you think the world owes you something.

As a captain id hope that you would know the condition of your plane reflects upon YOU. saying "it isnt my job" is exactly why you wouldnt make it at netjets.

I wish you would have come here, I would take pride in changing your life for the better.

Interesting.

 

[Flopgut]

As I said in another post JungleJett, guys like PCL_128 say it's "their" plane when things are good or they have to put on their hat and play pilot. Yet, when things go wrong it's the company's fault or it's someone elses problem. The crew is part of the company, problem and solution.
I'm with you about pitching in when times call for it. I never did the lav, but I did load bags, check-in pax and escorted them too. I even did my own windows when a station was busy. Hey, I need to see out of them not the ground crew. All this was while flying a Dash 8-300. So it wasn't a light twin or single. In the military things like that were done daily so I guess that prepared me for the civil side. Guys like PCL_128 forget what it takes to get a job done; they just enter the plane, turn left and camp until it's time to look for pretty women at the end of the trip in sunny Florida.
I am sure PCL_128 or others will try to tell me what they use to do, but what do they do now at their current job? That's what we are talking about. I know there are pilots out there that don't think other tasks are beneath them and lend assistance when it's needed. Hell, I've seen it happen.

Interesting as well.

Remarkably interesting indeed when we harken back to th NJA product prior to your breakthrough contract. Very much a recent thing. I'm pretty sure the NJA pilot group backed that brand into a corner big time. What would you and brokeflyer have said then to someone with your exact sentiments you've now directed at PCL?

 

[Flopgut]

Quit complaining and take pride in your work. That is your problem, you think the world owes you something.

As a captain id hope that you would know the condition of your plane reflects upon YOU. saying "it isnt my job" is exactly why you wouldnt make it at netjets.

I wish you would have come here, I would take pride in changing your life for the better.

How would you have like to heard this when your contract sucked and nothing was going your way? Especially to hear it from someone flush with money and QOL?

You an A teamer, or just full of crap?