Netjets - The final stop?

[RJ Bum]

....A little reality check is in order for most here. NetJets is just as much of a gamble as ANY other company in the aviation industry.Period. People tend to forget that the industry CONSTANTLY cycles, and there is just no way to ensure that NetJets or ANY COMPANY will be a feasable "final destination." Sure, it looks great now, but United looked great 10 years ago. FLOPS looked great 7 years ago. NetJets looked pretty pathetic until VERY RECENTLY. Only very recently did they get a contract which, I hate to break it to you, is not effective for "infinity and beyond," just as a number of other seemingly "unbeatable" contracts have led to less than desirable work conditions later.
I would certainly consider it a gamble to deem NetJets a "final destination" when they were a pretty low choice until very recently. There is a risk EVERYWHERE, but if you're going to "risk" do it where the LONG TERM prospects have a HISTORY of cycling back to the good (long standing major airlines), not the flavor of the month where you will spend your entire career away from your family in ridiculous blocks of 7 days. Regardless of the resulting scheduled days off (for NOW) it is insane to think that you will spend the bulk of your LIFE away from your family in blocks that LONG. When you are in your 50s and 60s it especially will get to you. You will NEVER be away that long at a major airline, regardless of seniority.
Bottom line, no matter what the flaming retorts...the contract is NEW and the long term history speaks for itself.
7 days is a long time to expect a spouse to "hold down the fort" regardless of days off after (where you spend half of it recovering from work, and the other half catching up on all the crap you couldn't do all week...not exactly the "vacation" that those so desperate to have you look up to them want you to believe).

Not to call you out or anything, but you should change your name to “The Voice of the Obvious”. No one here is presuming to know what is in the future of this very instable environment we call careers. Who knows what’s going to happen 5, 10, 30 years from now. It is all a crap shoot. You just have to take an educated guess and run with it.

The bottom line is that NetJets is dominant in the fractional industry, currently in possession with over 75% of the market, backed by Berkshire Hathaway and a good business model. That is as about as stable as it comes in this day in age. I can’t think of any airline that could have ever made that claim.

As far as the 7 days out comment. Yes it is long, but it’s nice to come back to 7 days off as well. If you don’t want to be out that long, you have the option not to.

There were countless times in the airlines of having a period of a 3 or 4 day trip with 1 or 2 days of in between. Well if you are commuting and have to travel on a day off, there were times I couldn’t make it home and just had to stay in the crash pad. That to me doesn’t count as time off. So yes, in the airlines you do stay away from home longer than 7 days.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

The bottom line is that NetJets is dominant (at the moment) in the fractional industry, currently in possession with over 75% of the market, backed by Berkshire Hathaway and a good business model. That is as about as stable as it comes in this day in age.

RIGHT NOW in this particular CYCLE. I am saying to say it is THE place to RETIRE (as the subject of this thread) is and extremely poor suggestion.

 

[RJ Bum]

RIGHT NOW in this particular CYCLE. I am saying to say it is THE place to RETIRE (as the subject of this thread) is and extremely poor suggestion.

I agree that we are always in a cycle. What would your suggestion be for the guy that started the thread? What is your reason to choose that over NJA?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

I agree that we are always in a cycle. What would your suggestion be for the guy that started the thread? What is your reason to choose that over NJA?

I've ALREADY answered that. In a gamble, I will always lean toward the long term HISTORY of a company's benefits for its pilots. NJA does NOT have a history of being a company worthy of being chosen a RETIREMENT place. Plenty HAVE however had long, good paying careers with major airlines that rival that of the new, temporary contract at NJA.

 

[JungleJett]

I've ALREADY answered that. In a gamble, I will always lean toward the long term HISTORY of a company's benefits for its pilots. NJA does NOT have a history of being a company worthy of being chosen a RETIREMENT place. Plenty HAVE however had long, good paying careers with major airlines that rival that of the new, temporary contract at NJA.

Besides SWA, UPS and FedX, which airline has a great long term history of stable employment to include a period where there we no furloughs, Chapter 11's, mergers, labor unrest?

I would not bet on a stable long term career with any legacy right now...and having said that, aviation is not the best bet to expect no bumps along the way. I will take my pay, invest it, and prepare for the worse....

Working for Deltanited is not worth the gray hairs that would come with it....

 

[realityman]

Voice, just curious, what CYCLE exactly, are you speaking of for NJA? In a 21-year history of this company, there was a very brief period where a few pilots were furloughed. As far as company growth, at least for the past 15 years, it's been nothing but positive.

I can tell you that I've personally flown with pilots coming from both the regionals AND the majors that have been through several furloughs and one or two bankruptcies. And quite often, when furloughs happen at the majors, they go thousands deep. I'm also thinking that Pan Am, TWA, Eastern, etc... were big stable airlines for many years, yet where are they now? This 'stability' you speak of in the majors, at least in my perception, doesn't seem to exist.

I will grant you that in all honesty, aviation as a whole is a crap shoot. When will American furlough another 6000? Will Southwest be profitable (or in existence) 10 years from now? And yes, will NJA still be dominant or even around in 10 years? I can't say with any more certainty than you can what's going to happen.

But you seem to want to look at trends. Fine by me. So I say again, over the past 21 years or so at NJA it's been almost completely up. You're right, a mere 10 years ago it was a pathetic place to work. But each succeeding contract, even the bad ones, increased our compensation and bettered our work rules. Our history has almost always been moving in a positive direction. Now it seems to be a really excellent place to work. You seem to think it won't last. Maybe. But it could also just as easily continue to get better and better. The thing is, you keep saying 'CYCLES', but we haven't experienced any sort of true down cycle yet, so based on your own reasoning, NJA should be one of the safest bets going.

Hey look, fractional flying isn't for everyone. I also know of a couple folks working here that HATE it, and can't wait to get to the airlines. If they aren't happy, then they need to go for the gusto and try to get where they will be happy. That really is most important in life. I'm not sure if you fly for one of the fractionals, but if you do, sounds like you're completely miserable with the whole thing. I hope you're working hard at finding a place to work that will make you happy, whether it's union or non-union. I do think your reasoning that the majors will be the most STABLE choice is flawed, but if it's what you're most comfortable with, then go for it!

By the way, the 7/7 schedule works just fine for me. Yes, I do have some catching up to do with chores around the house when I get home, but I suspect that I'd run into a similar situation at the majors too. But in spite of that, I'm getting plenty of rest in my time off and still have adequate time to visit my friends and family, or enjoy my hobbies. Not sure where you're getting your info from that the 7/7 schedule is a hardship. If you really want to maximize your time with your family, get out of aviation altogether.

Also, with so many crew bases around the country, the vast majority of our pilots don't have to commute. Are you considering that when you claim that the schedules at the majors allow for more time with your family? Your tours may be shorter, but if you have to sacrifice a day or two on each end for commuting, as so many do, I'm not sure that's terribly conducive for good home life either.

Like I said, if the majors are your thing, go for it! But I'm in my upper 30's now, and I've long since discovered that the 'greener grass' syndrome doesn't always work out as hoped for.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Voice, just curious, what CYCLE exactly, are you speaking of for NJA? In a 21-year history of this company, there was a very brief period where a few pilots were furloughed. As far as company growth, at least for the past 15 years, it's been nothing but positive.

You're right there's no cycle where NJA is concerned because their pay has ALWAYS been low (regardless of seniority) until like, last month, so I guess I should put all my eggs in THAT basket for the brief time it is likely to last.

"Growth" is great for the bigwigs but means nothing whatsoever to me (or you for that matter) unless it is passed along in PAY. NJA has been "growing" for a long time now, long before they decided to throw you a bone for a while (before they decide "oh yeah, we can run like this). I love how they always throw out Warren Buffett's name like that means anything to the pilots. His name was there all that time you guys may SQUAT, and Wal-Mart is a mega corp too...what does that mean to its employees. Enjoy it now...or rather SAVE it now.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Voice....it sounds like you're a bit jealous. Sorry you can't share in our pay raise but you'll have your chance in the very near future.

I hope you participate. That's if your management team allows you to participate. You'll know what I mean soon enough.

 

[Seat 0A]

...and yet here you (and many like you) are...on your "vacation" needing to justify why your job and time off are so great. Not how I'd spend MY "vacation"

Actually, smart a$$, I am staying at one of our comfortable Hilton hotels, on a 14.5 hour overnight, with our included internet.

What a tool you are.

 

[realityman]

You're right there's no cycle where NJA is concerned because their pay has ALWAYS been low (regardless of seniority) until like, last month, so I guess I should put all my eggs in THAT basket for the brief time it is likely to last.

"Growth" is great for the bigwigs but means nothing whatsoever to me (or you for that matter) unless it is passed along in PAY. NJA has been "growing" for a long time now, long before they decided to throw you a bone for a while (before they decide "oh yeah, we can run like this). I love how they always throw out Warren Buffett's name like that means anything to the pilots. His name was there all that time you guys may SQUAT, and Wal-Mart is a mega corp too...what does that mean to its employees. Enjoy it now...or rather SAVE it now.

Voice, I'll quit posting at you after this. Why? Because there simply is no way to have a meaningful conversation with someone who has almost zero facts right about NJA.
Warren Buffet has been involved with NJA for a relatively short time. Back when we made our lowest wages he wasn't around.

NJA has almost always been growing. I think you're intentionally switching topics to try and make sense of your arguments, which really hold no water. I believe you were originally talking about STABILITY. You said the majors have a better history of stability than NJA. I would counter that we have folks who have been on the seniority list here for over 21 years. I wonder if they believe NJA is a stable company. And in the course of those 21 years, we've been in growth mode for most of it. And we still are. Every year we make more money (the company) and expand our fleet and client base. Geez Voice! How much more of a stable company do you want?

As for money (pilot compensation), I can't argue with you about how we were paid prior to 2005. Pathetic is one word that comes to mind. But even before that, our wages were coming up, even if only very modestly. But at least we weren't going backwards. Many people in the industry, and plenty on these very message boards, claimed that we would bankrupt the company in short order if the company gave in and paid what we were asking. And when we got it, lo and behold, we didn't just make a profit, we made RECORD PROFITS, and quite literally almost overnight (no, I'm sure the company wasn't cooking the books before that to try and show how they couldn't pay us ).
Now, we've increased compensation more, but not at the same level we did in 2005. And here we are again, with someone like you claiming it'll be short-lived.

So I ask you, what, in the history of NJA (not the airlines mind you!), makes you think this company is merely a flash in the pan and our pay will be short-lived? We started small and got bigger? Our pay started small and got bigger? So what? How big was SWA 21 years ago? They seem to be doing alright, even with employee compensation going up all those years. Do you think it's possible NJA has a good business model, and that we may have at least another 21 good years in front of us?

Your arguments seem to be based on bitter emotions, rather than anything actually based in the facts of NJA. I still agree with you that fractional flying isn't for everyone, but if you're looking for stability and good wages, NJA is just as good as SWA and maybe better than United, Delta, et al....

Good luck to you in whatever endeavour brings you the most happiness.

 

[igneousy2]

If majors had 7 day trips they would go SENIOR. The less commutes you have a month the less stress you have and the more time you have at home. They don't because of the 30/7day rule. Regionals can because of their short legs, but majors as a practical matter can't have many domestic trips more than 4 days long.

Food for thought = Major airline bases are junior BECAUSE they are undesireable places to live/commute to. At my airline, the only acceptable place to live for me is the senior base which right now takes about 24 years as a Captain or 10 years as an FO to hold those 19-20 day off schedule I keep hearing about. LAX is just not my cup of tea and the thought of being based in ANC in the winter gives me nightmares.

My point is - YES , some major airline pilots get 19-20 off a month...but the vast majority don't...and it takes a VERY long time to get there. The vast majority of lines are in the 13-17 day off range.

I don't know much about regionals as I have been in the airlines for long so I can't say much about that...all I know is that historically the "top dog" in the airline industry has a VERY bad track record.

When I first started in this industry US Air was THE major to work for. Eastern was considered great at one point as was Pan Am (long before I got here). Then it was all about United...then Delta...now it's SWA SWA SWA.

I have a friend that interviewed at just about every major in the late 80's and was turned down by every one. He didn't interview very well and UAL, DAL, USAir, all turned him down. He was almost ASHAMED to take the job at FedEx as it was a last resort with no history, little pay, and poor benefits comapared to the legacies. Today he is a 21-year DC-10 Captain with another 5 to go (actually 10 because of age 65 but I doubt he'll do it). His biggest complaint now is that his last $50,000 he makes in a year doesn't count toward his pension calculation because of ERISA rules (you can only count the first $225,000). He will make more in retirement then anybody currently flying for United, Delta, or USAir.

You just never know.

 

[bluepost]

Voice of reason is green with envy and a very weak individual. Will he change? Nope. Will posting this change anything? Nope. The only reason I post is to throw another post out there for all who may be reading this board that this person is not in his right mind. If the world pulled a GE and cut 10% of the weakest from our population Voice would be gone.

I saw FLOPS for what it was 8 years ago, there wasn't any hope. RTA was the only positive thing in FLOPS history. Anyone who can't see that doesn't have the proper judgment to be a Captain. Will FLOPS survive? I only hope so if the company can afford to pay industry wages, otherwise it will be doing everyone a favor buy going out of business. It is possible that they will find their niche, but if not the good pilots will start over at NJA or a major and be making the same money they were at FLOPS within 2 years and their entire family will be better off in the long run. I thought the same about NJA 3 years ago, pay me or go out of business, seems like we have worked out a workable solution for the time being.

Flex at least has the backing of Bombardier, FLOPS is out taking a big gamble by trying to find a niche in this crazy market. There is always hope, but hope and logic don't always follow the same bell curve. FLOPS was trying to market "cheaper" to a client that doesn't care about money.

Now if you counter my last sentence with statements like "thats how they got their money", you are obviously missing my overall point, and it probably happens to you a lot in your life, and your constantly frustrated like Voice. Some people don't have a free throw, some don't have judgment. Not their fault but don't drag down my industry. I don't show up on the basketball court, don't show up in my industry and ruin the game.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Don't give Voice of Reason too hard a time. We all want to believe that the choices we made are the correct choices. Most of us would argue the choices we made until we were blue in the face in the hopes of convincing our peers that we did the right thing.

At the end of the day though there are hundred possible choices with a thousand possible results. We make the choices we make based on the information we have at the time. Whether anyone else agrees with what we did is irrelevant.

As long as we are able to support our families, buy a toy or two, and squirrel enough money away to retire sometime in our 60s or before, the gamble worked out.

But make no mistake it's all a gamble. Whether you work for NetJets or Delta, or FedEx, etc... It's all a gamble. Hopefully the gamble pays off. If it doesn't, we play again...and again... until the casino kicks us out for drunk and disorderly conduct.

 

[JungleJett]

His biggest complaint now is that his last $50,000 he makes in a year doesn't count toward his pension calculation because of ERISA rules (you can only count the first $225,000). He will make more in retirement then anybody currently flying for United, Delta, or USAir. /QUOTE]

If he lives very long. UPS was in my top three for a long time and spent a while at number 1. I know a ton of people there and think I had a pretty good shot at it. I just cannot wrap my head around the schedule. I know senior guys that look ten years older than they are. I have jumped on them and I see how worn out they are. I have a daughter at home I would like to walk down the aisle some day...and hold a grandchild as well. I will not trade health for money.

 

[Jafo73]

If he lives very long. UPS was in my top three for a long time and spent a while at number 1. I know a ton of people there and think I had a pretty good shot at it. I just cannot wrap my head around the schedule. I know senior guys that look ten years older than they are. I have jumped on them and I see how worn out they are. I have a daughter at home I would like to walk down the aisle some day...and hold a grandchild as well. I will not trade health for money.

I think that would depend on the individual too. My dad has worked for ABX Air since '91 doing the night flying (and they work a 7n7 type schedule) and he still gets asked if he is 10 years younger then he is.

 

[jtf]

NJA will hopefully be my last stop. I'm 2 years into my career here and now that I can live where I want I won't be thinking about another flying job unless something weird happens here to kill the company. Everyone has different things that are important to them and NJA certainly isn't the best place for everyone. With the 100 bases, NJA is the best place for me. It is worth it for me to live where I want and sacrifice the likely higher salaries and more time off that I would probably eventually get at a major. However, weird stuff happens in aviation all the time and companies that were great are now gone. A career is a long time and I'm planning on working another 30 or so years. I'm maxing out my 401k and saving for a rainy day just in case and I know exactly what I'll do outside of aviation in case I loose my medical or aviation jobs in general take a big dump. I believe NJA is as good a career job as there is in aviation, but it's still aviation and I'm not going to bet everything on NJA (or any other pilot job) lasting until I am ready to retire. I have no idea what aviation will be like in 30 years. All I know is that it will be very different than today, just as today is very different than 30 years ago.

 

[Seat 0A]

in case I loose my medical

Is this the opposite of a "tight" medical?

 

[Cooperd0g]

New here and a year from getting out of the military. With FedEx, UPS, and Southwest currently not hiring and possibly not hiring at all in 2008 I would have seriously considered NetJets. At least until the three others started hiring again. Then I would have had to weigh the options.

Unfortunately for me, NetJets has more rigid flight time requirements than the major airlines. I have about 100 hours of turbo-prop, 1600 hours of jet time, but only 20 piston. That makes me well below the 2500 total time requirement even though I have a fair amount of high performance jet experience. Frankly, I'm surprised at this, but oh well, that's the way it goes. My options now are to do another three years on active duty or go part time and try out for Delta or Continental or a contract adversary company.

By the time I have the flight time for NetJets, FedEx, UPS, and Southwest may be hiring. I have a few friends at each and where I live the commute is relatively easy on your own company planes at popular beginning bases. So they tell me anyway.

I think I would like the early stage quality of life better at NetJets, but with no kids right now and a wife who likes nice things (luckily she makes good money herself) I could muscle through some rough years to chase the money and quality of life that may (yes I know it is only 'may') be better at my top three choices.

In fact it is probably better for me that I can't apply to NetJets because otherwise I would. Then in a few years when FedEx, UPS and Southwest start hiring again I probably wouldn't want to leave NetJets. I like the varied flying possibilities and if my wife can handle 8 and 6 month deployments (oh, and I am away from home a bunch now anyway) she can definitely handle me being gone for two weeks a month or the 15 or 18 day flex schedules. In fact she likes having a week or two on her own every now and then. Sure, that might change when we have kids.

 

[kman]

Guys I was just running some numbers in my head, i have up 38 years to give the majors assuming I don't get laid off, I would at lets say the 20 yr point I would be working as much as 55 days a year extra at netjets, factoring in no vacation. After year 10 doesn't it get anybody. Your on duty for 26 weeks on the seven and seven, -4 weeks for vacation, still leaves 22 weeks of work( guys comp and a/c recurrent is still work) Averages out still to be about 12.83 days out on duty with vacation.

At most of the majors A senior captain or Fo 10-20 years of seniority should be able to day trips or only working 11-12 days a month not factoring in vacation. Yes i know I would have to live in base for the greatest QOL. But with commutter clauses, day trips, 4-5 days of less work a month, and the fact that I have 38 years to give, Right now is the time for me to leave.

 

[skiandsurf]

Guys I was just running some numbers in my head, i have up 38 years to give the majors assuming I don't get laid off, I would at lets say the 20 yr point I would be working as much as 55 days a year extra at netjets, factoring in no vacation. After year 10 doesn't it get anybody. Your on duty for 26 weeks on the seven and seven, -4 weeks for vacation, still leaves 22 weeks of work( guys comp and a/c recurrent is still work) Averages out still to be about 12.83 days out on duty with vacation.

At most of the majors A senior captain or Fo 10-20 years of seniority should be able to day trips or only working 11-12 days a month not factoring in vacation. Yes i know I would have to live in base for the greatest QOL. But with commutter clauses, day trips, 4-5 days of less work a month, and the fact that I have 38 years to give, Right now is the time for me to leave.

Your writing skills might keep you out of most cockpits.....oh wait, most pilots cant spell, so you should be just fine.

Something that you must think of, is seniority. At NJs, your schedules wont change too much. At the airlines, each time you change planes or upgrade, you are probably going to lose seniority, and days off.

I was just talking to an old friend, that is a senior 777 FO for CAL. He claims that he only works 9 days a month. He does not upgrade (make more money) because he doesnt want to work more. Hewas trying to convince me to apply at CAL, but I had to remind him that he has 18 yrs seniority, I would be starting off at the bottom, and have to commute to EWR. No thanks.