Netjets - The final stop?

[gunfyter]

I'll take that bet...

There are part 91 operators with significantly better QOL. But I have to hand it to you guys on the healthcare and retirement. Just outstanding. I'm very jealous.

There are but you usually have to know somebody to get in. And hopefully they never close the flight department

 

[FurloughedAgain]

And hopefully they never close the flight department

You've been eavesdropping on my bedtime prayers.

That's the one thing that has me even considering applying to NetJets right now. I think there is a much better chance that you guys will be here 25+ years from now, then my current department.

And right about the time I start to put pen to paper on the application, my son comes up and pulls on my pantleg to play with him. I just can't be gone 2 weeks a month. Would break my heart.

 

[kman]

I agree. However, there is more to the story.....

What so many fail to do is make an apples to apples comparison (to the extent possible) when comparing NJA to a Major.

To do this you must define days "worked". If you were at the Majors would you do any commuting or be doing ANY traveling while not on duty? I feel you have to compare days away from home/family.

This year at NJA I was:

On duty 154 days = 12.83 days/month

Flew the line 133 days (after subtracting 1 week for company and 2 weeks for FlightSafety) = 11.08 days/month

I could have taken one more tour off with personal days which would leave:
147 duty days = 12.25 days/month
or 126 line flying days = 10.05 days/month

At 10 years there will be another week of vacation in these figures.

Again, if you compare days away from home it is a much more appropriate comparison with the Majors.

I didn't volunteer for any extra days. Service year 6/7. Had gross wages over $122,000 (29% over base) not counting bonus payout. Had this year been at the new IBB wages this would have been a bit over $140,000. Add another $6-7k tax-free per-diem if you want, plus other extras.

Never had to "work" too hard loading bags. Line guys do the lifting. Actually there are not always that many bags, sometimes just briefcases or overnight bags. Calling ahead for ground transportation is no big deal and frankly doesn't happen all that often. Catering also not a big deal, in fact it is often left behind which means many $50 bottles of wine, etc. for the crew! (exceeds our normal stock list and cannot remain on aircraft).

All travel done on duty, with a ticket.

Get home after midnight pays me around $1800 and includes time recovery on front of next tour. Home after Noon and take the whole first day off next tour.

Summary: Nearly $150,000 compensation for a 7 year pilot, 10-13 days per month away from home, decent food not obtained from the airport food court, full health/vision/dental, good QOL.

So once you finally get past the Boeing or Airbus fix and start to make a fair comparison, I feel this is light years ahead. I wouldn't go back to 121 even if I was in my 20's. Couldn't drag my family through that crap.

I really don't give a crap about boeing or airbus, I do hate Cessna cockpits though. Its all about QOL on and OFF the road, Flexiblity of scheduling and time off.

Like I said before, I'm willing to move to my base, so no commuting for me. Even If I did commute, during my my airline career, I only commuted a handful of times the day b4 and the commuting policy took care of the rest( usually two flights at any decent airline). The last two years at the airline I never left my house more than 4 hours b4 my sign in time commuting to ORD. Usually after a couple of years yu can hold a line that start late in the pm and returns early on the am the last day.

There is noway u can subtract 3 weeks for comp, and a/c rec. Its still duty away from home. It may seem like a vacation, but its not. Why do you guys think flight safety doesn't count?

You really can't count sick or personal days.

Money isn't my primary concern, but the opportunity is still greater at the majors. That being said I gladly earn 120k to work 9 days a month compared to working 15 days a month for 160k.

A SWA friend of my Lives is his hometown, averages 19.7 days off a month and with vacation it drops down 22 days off a month. He can do day trips for a couple of months, longer coast to coast stuff or just drop most of his schd, and fly 3 days for the entire month. He still pulled in 170k last year and was home every single night of the year except for a couple mx issues that overnighted him somewhere other than home. I know things can change but When I think of great schedules and QOL he has it.

 

[Seat 0A]

Why do you guys think flight safety doesn't count?
I

Never said it didn't. I simply posted ALL the data instead of part of it as so many guys do. I know plenty of airline guys who brag about their "10 days/month schedule" and when you start to get into full disclosure you find out they are commuting on their own time.

I posted it that way in case someone might want to know how the number of days on the LINE (i.e. out in the elements dealing with crap) breaks down.

 

[Seat 0A]

You really can't count sick or personal days.

.

???
Actually, since it is a PERSONAL day that I can use, and we earn 12 per year, I certainly can count it as a day off. What would you call it??

If I CHOOSE not to use it I can be paid up to 110% for cashing them in.

 

[Seat 0A]

The bonus really doesn't count, when do you think the next one will be?

WTFO?

Quick!, someone call 911. Kman might be having a seizure or a stroke.

I specifically DID NOT include the bonus in my figures. Go back and re-read the whole post!!

Sh*t, I even put "not" in bold.

Jeez.

 

[kman]

Its the same as calling in sck, I called in sck or used a personal days so could anybody else that has a better schedule than me.

15days off a month called in sck for 3 days, I still worked 13 days that month.

My buddy has 20 days off a month and calls in sck for 3 he has only worked 7 days that month.

If you live in base there is noway we can match the QOL of a senior guys at the major.

My bad about the bonus guess I read it wrong.

 

[BengalsFan]

I still don't understand why this is still going on... and even getting a little heated... Here, I'll moderate.

KMan, you are correct, there are other jobs out there that pay more, have more days off and/or more flexible schedules. There is risk and you have noted that you understand this. You also have made it clear that you are willing to live in any Southwest domicile to include: Chicago, Baltimore and Oakland, because these are the most junior bases, and the only ones which you will be able to hold the schedules you so desire.

Everyone else. KMan isn't knocking NetJets, he is stating facts that there are other options out there that pay more and POTENTIALLY have better schedules (whether or not that is better QOL is individually based).

I have a lot of friends at both companies and they all are trying to get me to come to their's... because they feel it is the best. To me, I'll apply to both and take the one that wants me, because you can't go wrong with either.

My $0.02, I'll choose NetJets if I'm offered both, because I want the flexibility to live anywhere I want (within reason) and no commute, although long term financial rewards will probably be sacraficed. I believe NetJets has more long term stability (IMHO), I also prefer business a/c over what seems to be everyone elses dream of flying a big ass boat in the sky. But this arguement could go on for years, because it is individual opinion about what is important.

But I wish more people thought like Kman, so there will be an open seat for me at NetJets when i get out of the military.

Take care all... happy new year!

 

[kman]

See he gets what I'm tying to say. Netjets is a great place and am grateful for the job I have, I just don't know if its my final stop. Which was the orginal question. From what I have seen this wouldn't be a bad choice, its it might not be the best option for me. Have a great new year guys.

 

[JungleJett]

What some seem to be forgetting is that job security factors into overall quality of life. If I do not need to worry about being furloughed, my airline being merged with another, my company going tango uniform, losing a major contract....then that is one less stress on me and my personal QOL is better. You cannot put a price tag on that...

There are less than a handful of airlines that offer any stability...and they are NOT hiring right now. I know a ton of folks at UPS and you cannot call that a good..or healthy...QOL. The money is good as is the stability..but the schedule WILL kill you.

SWA..they are an anomoly in the business. I would have considered them as well.

I am looking forward to NJA....

(Plus, they are super military friendly....and that is a big deal to me)

 

[BengalsFan]

Jungle Jet

Will you elaborate on the "super military friendly" comment?

 

[Ultra Grump]

Money isn't my primary concern, but the opportunity is still greater at the majors. That being said I gladly earn 120k to work 9 days a month compared to working 15 days a month for 160k.

Take a 2-month unpaid LOA every year. All the time off you need, all in one block.

 

[bluepost]

I agree with what Kman says. Senior flying at any of the majors is a better job. More stable? Not necessarily. Now what airlines can you get senior in a reasonable amount of time? SWA, FEX, UPS. Anything else is a pretty big gamble.

Now if your willing to give up some money and stability, to each their own....I would rather sit right seat in a 767 international for 100k a year then fly NJA for 120k, any more then that, the money talks.


I get it. Big airplanes are cool, if given a choice I would fly one. Trip trading, picking your destinations, who you fly with, planning things on the road, I would love it all. If someone is willing to give up some money early on for that, and pretty sure they will make it up in 25 years, go for it.

I'm making too much money to leave, the money is enough to provide what I want in life and my wife doesn't work now, but will be again once the kids are older. I have a family and gave up the 747-400 dream for them, and was happy to do it. But I still long for them every time I see them on 28R at SFO.

 

[goahead]

A SWA friend of my Lives is his hometown, averages 19.7 days off a month and with vacation it drops down 22 days off a month. He can do day trips for a couple of months, longer coast to coast stuff or just drop most of his schd, and fly 3 days for the entire month. He still pulled in 170k last year and was home every single night of the year except for a couple mx issues that overnighted him somewhere other than home. I know things can change but When I think of great schedules and QOL he has it.

And how long has he been there?? What base Hou DAL just curious would love that QOL but don't think it exists for "or generation".

 

[Cavpilot]

Jungle Jet

Will you elaborate on the "super military friendly" comment?

I'll field this question. NetJets is without a doubt, "Super military friendly". I have never had a problem getting time off for drills, active duty, etc..

Not only that, the company takes time to send care packages and other stuff to those over in the sandbox.

 

[BengalsFan]

Cav Pilot

Do you just simply tell them (fax in your orders) that you are going to miss a trip (assuming you are on 7n7) because you are on orders? Basically, how does it work?

 

[JungleJett]

BengalsFan,

First off, being from Cincinnati, it is getting harder to root for the Bengals...I still like watching them but they are normally losing.

My bro has been with NJA for about 7 years and has NEVER had a problem getting off for mil leave and the fact that they "bring up" your pay if you make less in the military is freaking awesome! If I recall, while my brother and I were deployed to the desert in 2003, he got a letter from Santulli that was hand signed. (I am pretty sure it was)

Plus, the most prominant item in the NJA CMH lobby is a Blue Star Flag with all the names of those who served or are serving in OIF.

Says a lot to me...

 

[Semore Butts]

Yep they are great in supporting the military

I'm proud to say I have 2 brass plates on the wall at Netjets "Headquarters".

 

[BeechScrub]

I agree that it would be really cool to have a "senior" schedule of 5 on 7 off or something like that to reward the guys that have been here a while. I was talking the other day with a guy about an idea to work half time for 40% of your salary and you pay contributions toward your benefits. Not sure if that could ever happen because it would be hard for the company to get a good ROI on their investment in your training, but it's worth talking about.

In my opinion, the 7/7 schedule at NJA is the best thing going for real QOL. I like to take my days off in large blocks and I always know my schedule a YEAR in advance. It's great. The immediate QOL that NJA offers as a new hire is hard to beat. Not to mention I can live almost anywhere I want and move as often as my short attention span necessitates.

There is also a lot to be said for enjoying flying again. I absolutely love the flying here. Small airports, big airports, uncontrolled, resort destinations, challenging approaches, no hub and spoke crap. No tour is the same. It's great. Airlines are great at sucking the fun out of flying.

This place isn't for everybody and it certainly isn't perfect, but the bottom line is this is my dream job and I'm not going anywhere. Fedex or SWA would be cool for the extrea $$ and a little more time off; but there is so much more to this job that I like that those companies can't offer.

 

[skiandsurf]

The Not-so-typical Netjets week.

4 flights. 2 revenue and 2 repos.

5 pax total. 1 flight with no catering....easy.

The shortest flight was 4.9 miles (SMO-LAX).

The longest was a transcon (BUR-TEB).

4 airline flights. One, 1 hour delay (SWA), two, 3 hour delays (UAL, AA), and one on time departure. A first class ticket on a transcon.

 

[Jafo73]

Cav Pilot

Do you just simply tell them (fax in your orders) that you are going to miss a trip (assuming you are on 7n7) because you are on orders? Basically, how does it work?

For short term stuff (UTA, SIM) I just send an email with a scanned copy of a mil leave letter with the dates I will be on Mil Leave. I have yet to have them ask for a copy of orders, but if it was a long tour (a year or more) they might want a copy. And at NJA we don't have trips like 121, we have days worked so you are just taking days off your tour. I have never had a problem and neither have the other 4 guys from my unit working here.

Something else military friendly is the wounded vets rehab center Santulli help fund to get built.

 

[On Your Six]

I agree that it would be really cool to have a "senior" schedule of 5 on 7 off or something like that to reward the guys that have been here a while. I was talking the other day with a guy about an idea to work half time for 40% of your salary and you pay contributions toward your benefits. Not sure if that could ever happen because it would be hard for the company to get a good ROI on their investment in your training, but it's worth talking about.

In my opinion, the 7/7 schedule at NJA is the best thing going for real QOL. I like to take my days off in large blocks and I always know my schedule a YEAR in advance. It's great. The immediate QOL that NJA offers as a new hire is hard to beat. Not to mention I can live almost anywhere I want and move as often as my short attention span necessitates.

There is also a lot to be said for enjoying flying again. I absolutely love the flying here. Small airports, big airports, uncontrolled, resort destinations, challenging approaches, no hub and spoke crap. No tour is the same. It's great. Airlines are great at sucking the fun out of flying.

This place isn't for everybody and it certainly isn't perfect, but the bottom line is this is my dream job and I'm not going anywhere. Fedex or SWA would be cool for the extrea $$ and a little more time off; but there is so much more to this job that I like that those companies can't offer.

I think this paragraph above says a lot. Sure, we fly to live and don't live to fly necessarily. But most of us got into flying because we love it and flying a "desk" won't cut it for us. Netjets and other fractionals provide great variety of flying that can challenge you at times and keep you sharp. Although you will hit an airline hub here and there, you certainly won't be trapped doing ORD-JFK-MCO all the time like you would in the airlines. Watch your skills and your interest degrade quickly if you just connect hubs every day. Seeing new places and flying challenging approaches can keep things from getting too boring (which is the case a lot of the time).

While quality/mix of flying ain't everything, it certainly is a nice benefit and it keeps things interesting.

 

[AeroDMB]

NetJets has been the dominate player in the market since inception, however give it another 5-10 years and we'll see what other "products" are out there for customers. I'm all for the NetJets career track (if I had the time) but there is competition heating up that might present some challenges for NetJets in the future. Let's not rule out mergers, acquisitions, etc. for the fractional world at some point in the future. Hopefully it will never get to the extent the airlines face these days.

 

[old*art]

Most of my friends at the majors hate to go to work, most of the pilots I know at NJA love to go to work. That is all I know.

 

[RJ Bum]

The Not-so-typical Netjets week.

4 flights. 2 revenue and 2 repos.

5 pax total. 1 flight with no catering....easy.

The shortest flight was 4.9 miles (SMO-LAX).

The longest was a transcon (BUR-TEB).

4 airline flights. One, 1 hour delay (SWA), two, 3 hour delays (UAL, AA), and one on time departure. A first class ticket on a transcon.

You X guys work too hard!

 

[tk855]

NetJets has been the dominate player in the market since inception, however give it another 5-10 years and we'll see what other "products" are out there for customers. I'm all for the NetJets career track (if I had the time) but there is competition heating up that might present some challenges for NetJets in the future. Let's not rule out mergers, acquisitions, etc. for the fractional world at some point in the future. Hopefully it will never get to the extent the airlines face these days.

You bring up a good point that people rarely think about! It takes a lot of work to stay on top, but it is definately a challenge the 1108 and its membership are up to. Competition is good for everyone, it keeps us on our toes. RTS has even acknowledged this and has commented on it. It will be interesting to see where the cards lie ten years from now. If I were to place a bet, I bet you will see Netjets still on top if not very close.

 

[RJ Bum]

Most of my friends at the majors hate to go to work, most of the pilots I know at NJA love to go to work. That is all I know.

Isn't that the truth

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Not to burst the bubble, but....

....A little reality check is in order for most here. NetJets is just as much of a gamble as ANY other company in the aviation industry.Period. People tend to forget that the industry CONSTANTLY cycles, and there is just no way to ensure that NetJets or ANY COMPANY will be a feasable "final destination." Sure, it looks great now, but United looked great 10 years ago. FLOPS looked great 7 years ago. NetJets looked pretty pathetic until VERY RECENTLY. Only very recently did they get a contract which, I hate to break it to you, is not effective for "infinity and beyond," just as a number of other seemingly "unbeatable" contracts have led to less than desirable work conditions later.
I would certainly consider it a gamble to deem NetJets a "final destination" when they were a pretty low choice until very recently. There is a risk EVERYWHERE, but if you're going to "risk" do it where the LONG TERM prospects have a HISTORY of cycling back to the good (long standing major airlines), not the flavor of the month where you will spend your entire career away from your family in ridiculous blocks of 7 days. Regardless of the resulting scheduled days off (for NOW) it is insane to think that you will spend the bulk of your LIFE away from your family in blocks that LONG. When you are in your 50s and 60s it especially will get to you. You will NEVER be away that long at a major airline, regardless of seniority.
Bottom line, no matter what the flaming retorts...the contract is NEW and the long term history speaks for itself.
7 days is a long time to expect a spouse to "hold down the fort" regardless of days off after (where you spend half of it recovering from work, and the other half catching up on all the crap you couldn't do all week...not exactly the "vacation" that those so desperate to have you look up to them want you to believe).

 

[Seat 0A]

(where you spend half of it recovering from work, and the other half catching up on all the crap you couldn't do all week...not exactly the "vacation" that those so desperate to have you look up to them want you to believe).[/B]

Not sure where you got your info but when I get home after 7 days my few minutes of paperwork is already done and the most I need to do is put away my suitcase. Not more than 15 minutes is devoted to work. Stuff papers in an envelope that is pre-addressed and then grab a cold one.

Recovery is not an issue. With adequate rest in good hotels, and proper nutrition while on the road, I just do not come home NEEDING recovery.

Also, having actually worked other schedules in my prior life I can tell you that having every other 7-day period off allows a lot more things to get done at home than short out and backs or any traditional "9-5" schedule.

But to each their own. If you have done both types of flying (airline vs. NJA) then you can make an informed decision. If not then it's just an assumption. And we all know what happens when you ass-u-me.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Not sure where you got your info but when I get home after 7 days my few minutes of paperwork is already done and the most I need to do is put away my suitcase. Not more than 15 minutes is devoted to work. Stuff papers in an envelope that is pre-addressed and then grab a cold one.

...and yet here you (and many like you) are...on your "vacation" needing to justify why your job and time off are so great. Not how I'd spend MY "vacation"