NetJets seniority

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy
The koolaid that the union feeds us does provide more hope than we are being fed in recurrent by our management team. Any purchaser of capital equipment in the world could have told you that selling the core fleet was a massive error. Eventually it all has to be purchased again, only at a more expensive price. I've suggested a single idea that would easily save the company over $50k a week, yet the company has shown no interest at all.

Hawkered - as always, you are a voice of logic and reason on this board. I would be interested in hearing what your idea is that could potentially save us $50k per week. It pains me to hear that no one in the company has expressed any interest. As in any organization, you have good people, average people, and a few people that should move on to something else that really interests them. Our managers fit the same mold. Regardless of whether the idea has merit or doesnt work at all, someone should check it out and give you feedback on its feasability.

As for the core, no one wants to be in an oversold situation. Yes, the general rule is that once you sell something, the replacement cost will be even higher, but so to will be the selling price of the next product.

The challenge we face is that it takes years to acquire our product from the manufacturer, which requires us to forecast demand sveral years out, yet demand can change on a dime. No one (inside or outside the company) was forecasting the huge spike in demand that we saw after the elections. Hopefully the restrictions that have been placed on the Marquis card will restore the balance and help eliminate large increases in demand with little to no notice.

Family Guy
Charles Dickens had a central theme to many of his writings that you eventually become what you hate. You have told our fellow pilots to stop making personal attacks, yet you have both resorted and retorted with the same.

Excellent point. I appreciate the literary reference and you are exactly right. I apologize for stooping to the same behavior that I criticized.

Family Guy
Family Guy, you probably know who I am, and I am sure who you are. This has not played out as either side would want it and I have three basic ideas.

1. Don't allow yourself or members of your management team to remain condescending. You are not "teaching" us anything. At the moment we are watching in horror.

2. Don't stoop to personal attacks on the pilot group because some of us are frustrated. Hold the higher ground.

3.
Git 'r Done!!

Again, excellent points. I will do my best to rein in my frustration with this process. Hopefully we can all see these ideas come to fruition in the near future.

I also liked the points you posted Friday night that appeared to go unnoticed. I thought it was an excellent summary of what you were looking for from the company and from the union. It is well worth repeating here:

There are far too many protagonists here who don't represent the majority at all. If you came from a dirt bag hauler or a bankrupt "cradle to grave" 121 carrrier..guess what, its probably time for you to leave. Working in America while people in Mexico and China are working for only a buck an hour will always be tougher than it was even three years ago. There is a happy medium in all this. I really don't need to know how much money we are making or losing, I just need to know that we have an effective management who can turn things around when they're getting tough. I want a fair wage that represents my abilities and those of my peers. I need job security as I get through my senior years. I need fair representation and accountability for the missteps in management and I need to know my voice will be heard when I see a screw up.

For those of you that are ripping off fuel placards or writing up bullsh!t items, you are the scum of the earth!!!

I am sick and tired of doing 14 hour days to cover you retards!!!

You are screwing me over...not the dang company.

For the record, I agree with and can support everyone of your points.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Family Guy....let's see what the Holiday's bring...no matter how you spell it, I think you get my drift.


And thank Bridgeway Bob for uniting us......perfect timing. I got my walking shoes on.

 

[Dixon Cider]

How do you know management got fat in the wallet over the last three years? Have you hired someone to look at the books yet? The company has been offering the books up for months yet you seem to prefer sitting back and speculating about the money being made and b!tching about having no contract than getting off your @ss and looking at the books.

Boisture makes 1.2 million, a man who has been this companies worst manager. The SEC filing last year for the BBJ 121 certificate. We make millions to loan to NJE. We buy and build hangers. We are in what is known as "aggressive expansion" mode. Not profit mode. Millions are being made, its just being spent.

And as I've stated NUMEROUS times before on this board - the blame for a three year delay is shared by both parties - union and management. Yes, mgmt has been paying a reduced wage, but the union didnt want to sign a deal when the economy was terrible.

What??

So your definition of giving 100% is writing up an aircraft just before an owner trip for a tootsie roll in a snack drawer door?

Never done it and don't agree with it.

Or getting the crew food and chowing down, but leaving the owner catering at the FBO?

Again, never done it

Or how about the pilots that were released the day prior at 1600, had a 0600 show the next day for a 0700 owner flight, but couldnt find a way to make the 5 minute trip from the hotel to the airport? Even though each hotel room had three cab companies listed and they all operated at 0600? That crew called in at 0610 and asked for a limo ride to take them on that 5 minute ride to the airport and ended up delaying the owner 35 minutes. That's giving 100%?!?!?

Nor have I done that. You are stereotyping 98% of the pilots here.

Or removing fuel placards? That's giving 100%? Wrong....That's criminal activity.

Haven't done that either.

You dont want me to describe these actions as performing poorly? You want to defend them and say that's giving 100%? That's doing your job? Bullsh!t.

I give 100%. What I said was, I quit giving 110%.

If that's your definition of 100% then I could never support rewarding that behavior and giving you a raise.

Not my definition



Everyone here in the flight center supports the pilots getting a raise and having their contract terms followed. No argument there.

Where we have an argument is how you are going about it. You are sh!tting on everyone else in the company and the industry in your efforts to get what you want. That is unacceptable.

We aren't sh!tting on you. We just quit covering everyone elses mistakes. We won't fly broke, or tired. That is most of us are doing. It is totally legal. There are a few bad apples, but when the farmer (company) neglects the tree (pilots), a few bad apples will fall.

To use your house analogy - Yes, if I was promised six-panel doors, then I would insist on six-panel doors. I would NOT however, kick holes in the walls of the house in protest and call the mailman a scab for delivering mail to the house while I was negotiating with the builder. Cause guess what....you'll eventually get the six panel doors but now you'll have holes in the walls and a pissed off mailman who constantly loses your mail. Now, do you want to live in that house?

I (we, most of us) aren't kicking holes in the walls. We are using the tools available to apply pressure to get them to come in and change the dang doors.
Also, I have never said the mailman (charter pilots) would be scabs, so this is pointless to me.

Wake the fu(k up and realize that you're pissing away any potential friends you may have (not unlike the situation that Northwest mechanics find themselves in now)

No, you wake the fu(k up. What we are doing is legal and you can't do anything about it. So your only recourse is to come here and bash, bitch and complain. We will eventually get what we want or close too (at least respectable), or this will continue. So if you have connections upstairs, ya better tell them to give us a reasonable offer or it will not end. Plain and simple. What we are asking for is not unreasonable. It is justifiable.

There you go again, underestimating the knowledge and intelligence of the rest of the people in the company. We do know what's going on and what this is about. Again, and slowly this time, pretty much everyone supports the pilots getting a raise. Its your asinine tactics that we have a problem with.

Again, I, and everyone I know (been here 7 years, so I know alot of pilots), do not pull this kind of BS.

And no, we dont view it as a personal attack....IT IS A PERSONAL ATTACK. Check out these boards....they are filled with personal attacks on fellow flight center employees, managers, executives, Mr. Santulli, even the OWNERS. Nobody has a problem with negotiating, even hard negotiating, but personal attacks on anyone is inappropriate and not helpful. We will all have to live with each other and work together once this gets resolved....personal attacks will just make it difficult or maybe impossible to forgive and forget.

I can understand some of the attacks here would piss you off. I do not agree with some of them and agree with you there. But, if you talk to the owners, or at least the owners I have talked to over the last year, they are on our side and agree that the company is dragging its feet. How do you explain that one?

And if you guys really like it here, then why all the hard @ss rhetoric about how terrible it is here? I keep getting conflicting signals from the pilot group on this board....the summary seems to be, its great except for the pay.

I love it here, I just hate how long it is taking and how the company views us. So your summary is correct on my part.

If that's accurate then maybe you should have talked about pay at the very beginning instead of wasting 3 years going over every single article in the contract except pay. Maybe you should focus on the pay and stop bringing up side issues (6S) to bog things down. Maybe you should hire someone to look at the books that the company has been offering for months now.....

The old local and funk five MEC took three years. This new group has taken only 10 months to get a better deal at this point. You think you know, but you don't. There is the problem right there.....the books that the company is offering are not ALL of the books we want to see.

By your board name, I assume you are a family guy. Well so am I. After child support, I have enough for rent and a car payment. Not much else. I fly the richest people in the world. Charter companies can turn a profit, why is it Netjets cannot (supposedly)? I don't believe they are not making enough money to give us a raise to bring us in line with the rest of the market. I will apologize for my union brothers if they personally attack you. But, we have chosen this career because:

1. We love to fly and 2. Because it is suppose to pay well.

In '98 Santulli said we "could have done better" and then promised to take care of us if we give him time. Well, now it is time to make good with those promises.

Just because a few bad apples do stupid things, most of us just want what is fair. It is you who is stereotyping me and the rest because of a few. I politely ask you to quit.

 

[Dixon Cider]

Turn that argument around and look at it from the other side....

If the union comes in with exorbitant demands and doesnt move off those demands, what can the negotiators do?

If the union insists on renegotiating every article in the contract for three years and not even talk about pay, what can the negotiators do?

If the company offers the books up for expert analysis, and the union stalls and doesnt take them up on the offer, what can the negotiators do?

So who's doing nothing and waiting?

I'm still trying to figure out how to quote in blue with my rebutal in it. So have patience.

Our demands ARE NOT exorbitant, they are reasonable and justifiable. Our negotiators have only taken 10 months (as I said in the previous post). It was the other group that took that long.

They have agreed to look at the books, we are waiting for the company to give us th books we want.

Uh, the company.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Boisture makes 1.2 million, a man who has been this companies worst manager. The SEC filing last year for the BBJ 121 certificate. We make millions to loan to NJE. We buy and build hangers. We are in what is known as "aggressive expansion" mode. Not profit mode. Millions are being made, its just being spent.

Where do you guys get this number of 1.2M for Boisture anyways? I've seen it posted on this board several times, but have yet to see a reputable source of the info posted. Not that it matters anyways.....what do you think is fair pay for someone responsible for the livlihood of 4,000 employees and their families?

As for the aggresive expansion, I figured you guys would support this...it means the company is growing and most of that growth translates directly into more pilot jobs and more pilot dues for the union. What's your gripe with that?

The company has already said that NJA makes a profit and they are willing to give pilots a raise that reflects that profitability. So whats the problem?

August 19 Quote: Also, we aren't performing POORLY, (your comment pisses me off), we just quit giving 110%. Now we just give 100%. We do EXACTLY what we are supposed to. Nothing more, nothing less. We do our job.

August 21 Quote: I give 100%. What I said was, I quit giving 110%.

Care to do any more flip-flopping?

We aren't sh!tting on you. We just quit covering everyone elses mistakes. We won't fly broke, or tired. That is most of us are doing. It is totally legal. There are a few bad apples, but when the farmer (company) neglects the tree (pilots), a few bad apples will fall.

Despite your protestations, the pilot group is sh!tting on us. Just look at all the derogatory references to flight center personnel, managers, executives, and owners on this board.

I too have been here for years. I know that most of our pilots are great people and that most of the crap that I see on this board is done by a small group of malcontents. But these malcontents seem to be running the show. If you dont agree with their actions why dont you speak up and cry foul? If you fail to speak up then you shouldnt be surprised that people assume you agree with their actions.

And as for the legality issue, I suggest you start educating yourself on the RLA and what is permitted, or else you'll quickly find yourself in the same boat as the APA at American Airlines. Bottom line is that while in negotiations the company is not permitted to change any operating rules and the union is not allowed to deviate from standard operating procedure. Your increased rate of DNIF and bullsh!t writeups could end up costing you a multi-million dollar settlement.

Either you guys start controlling the renegades or you will all pay for their actions.

I love it here, I just hate how long it is taking and how the company views us. So your summary is correct on my part.

The old local and funk five MEC took three years. This new group has taken only 10 months to get a better deal at this point.

Sounds to me like your anger is misplaced. The company bargained in good faith with your duly appointed representatives and reached an agreement with them in late 2004.

The pilots didnt approve of that agreement and voted it down, which is their right. They also voted out the old leaders and replaced them with a group that you feel is more in tune with what you want.

The company has been right there, willing to negotiate with any representative you care to put forward. They have also been instrumental in getting a better deal done in just 10 months.

To go back to your analogy - the company can only deal with the people you put forward. If your representatives are out of touch, who's fault is that? Why are you hostile to the company for your MEC being out of touch?

There is the problem right there.....the books that the company is offering are not ALL of the books we want to see.

The company claims to have offered all NJ books for review. What books do you want to see that they have not offered? Geico? Dairy Queen?

I dont think NetJets has access to those, and I dont think they are pertinent to these negotiations.

By your board name, I assume you are a family guy. Well so am I. After child support, I have enough for rent and a car payment. Not much else. I fly the richest people in the world. Charter companies can turn a profit, why is it Netjets cannot (supposedly)? I don't believe they are not making enough money to give us a raise to bring us in line with the rest of the market.

Yes, I am a family guy. That is what is truly important to me. I have the same money concerns that you do. I could use a few extra dollars, who couldnt? But am I willing to burn down my house to get it? No thanks.

So you fly the richest people in the world around. Big deal. Does that mean you are entitled to something? It sounds like you feel that way in your mind.

You are entitled to a fair days pay for a fair days work. Nothing more, nothing less.

NJA is making a profit and they've put a respectable raise on the table that puts you ahead of Flight Options, FlexJet, and Citiation Shares. As you and many other pilots on this board have already acknowledged, you already have much better work rules and conditions than our competitors. What else do you want?

From my perspective, you want airline rules and Corporate flight dept pay. Aint gonna happen. You need to make up your mind which business model you want to be compared to. You cant cherry pick the best of both worlds. When you do that the managers have to do their jobs and protect the business. They cant agree to terms that would cause the company to lose money....this would put everyone out of a job.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Our demands ARE NOT exorbitant, they are reasonable and justifiable. Our negotiators have only taken 10 months (as I said in the previous post). It was the other group that took that long.

Welcome to negotiations.... Guess what...both sides think their positions are reasonable and justifiable. I suggest you turn things around and look at it from the other sides perspective.

Its not about what you want, its about what you need and can live with.

 

[Some Dude]

Wow it smells like someone farted in here Family Guy must be posting his crap again. Loser.

 

[FAcFriend]

Its not about what you want, its about what you need and can live with.

You FG- are nicer than most managers in most companies. As in todays corporate world, I have not met another manager who worries about employees needs or what they can live with.

 

[Diesel]

Maybe it's about what you can live with but not what I can live with.

Once again you're not a pilot on the line. This has nothing to do with you at all.

You want a say in matters. Go be a pilot. Live you're life on the road and pay your union dues.

Until then you're voiceless troll on a bbs.

 

[FAcFriend]

Cmon, diesel. You are a smart man- when employees talk about "taking her down" it becomes everyone's business. If you didnt want employees to know or be involved then why do you plan to picket in Columbus?

If you didnt want employees to be involved why did you show up at the employee meeting passing out literature. Why talk about union business in ear shot of employees at FBO's?

Your union set out for alot of press- they got it. And now you dont like the exposure.

Just tell them to get the job done.