NetJets Recalls

[imacdog]

Certainly misleading if not inaccurate. He starts out by stating that returnees better like flying with incompetent 68 year old Captains. But, in the next paragraph he states that there'll be no upgrades because most Captains are in their 40's and 50's.

Both statements are accurate and one statement does not preclude the other.

 

[transpac]

Both statements are accurate and one statement does not preclude the other.

Read it any way you wish. The statement was made that inferred that one must like flying right seat with 68 year old Captains in order to survive at Netjets. But, reality is that the vast majority of Captains are far younger. I've never had an age-based problem with any pilot and think this was an ignorant statement. But, I didn't criticise the statement for that reason. The statement was misleading because it implied that assignments with an older Captain was going to be the norm while the reality is that it's going to happen infrequently. It's much the same as saying "you must like flying with lousy copilots to survive at Netjets" while reality is the vast majority of excellent copilots. Or, "you must like flying broke airplanes to survive at Netjets" because an airplane breaks once in a blue moon.

 

[imacdog]

Plenty of grey hairs hopping in and out of the NJA planes I see at the airport I work at.

 

[Hogprint]

The average age of pilots at NJA is 45yrs. That came from a company matrix that broke down age, experience, race ect...

 

[Allen1]

If the thread is still about NJ recalls:

Not expected til at least 2016. Maybe hiring in 2020ish.

To my furloughed friends:

Not sure if you want to come back unless where you are at now or go in the next 5-10 years completely sucks. If you have your 1000 hours PIC, shoot for the majors or some other charter/private gig. If you're not married/no family, shoot for over seas, that's where the growth is at.

Unless you don't care about ever upgrading...EVER, and you like flying right seat to a 68 year old, who thinks they still "got it", then come back. The way things look now, in my opinion as a lowly pilot, I don't think we will return to our post recession level for well over a decade+ if ever. Recalls most likely will only be based on attrition, and we all know that at NJ, you fly till you die. Heck, I moved up 5 spaces last year because of it! (Good job saving that 401k, now your grandson is going to blow your cash on a Porsche and your wife will spend it all on shopping, plus everyone scored more cash because you died while employed. Glad you enjoyed your years of hard work and saving!)

Upgrades wont happen.

Most pilots (80%) at NJ are not only PICs but in their early 40s to early 50s, which means at least 20 to possibly 30 years more of service. Only about 15% of the guys are in their 60s and they are looking at 10+ more years of work (Never believe them when they say "they will take a look at retiring in a few years", they just keep pushing the date).

If you're an FO now, and at the top of the list, you might upgrade 10 years from now, giving a total of 17 years as an FO. Bottom FO's might upgrade in 10-20 years from now. And recalls and new hires, never will. All these shinny new plane orders are all just replacements, not growth. And the pilot group is so lovely here, that even when the large class planes arrive, which could provide an SIC more pay if they bid it, PICs will bid SIC slots to fly the "big" plane. And since there are so many PICs, the company wont find a need to refill their slot. SICs lose big time, no pay and no upgrade!

Then again, once the airlines actually hire again, and the EMT destroys everything we love about working here, you might see some swift movement.

Good luck.

Let's hope Delta, United, and Brand X (heck, even US Airways) start hiring soon. Sitting 20 years right seat at SWA or UPS may be looking pretty good right now. Yes, I'm bitter. I used to love my job, until the recession, until I flew with too many UNprofessionals, until I realized I have to keep an eye on my aging pilot on the flight deck, until I realized that the grass on the airline side, in which I came, is actually greener (dysfunctional as it is over there), and until I realized that management wants to destroy us in our next contract. Yes, I'm looking for an exit plan. Hopefully I will provide a seat for someone soon.

Yep this place just plain sucks now. I'd hope for other jobs before wanting to come back here.

 

[rajflyboy]

Lets hope the 495 are called back SOON

 

[jtf]

Yep this place just plain sucks now. I'd hope for other jobs before wanting to come back here.

Is this sarcasm? The job is the same as it has been for as long as I've been here. Actually, it is easier than when I started. What sucks is that fo's are stuck in the right seat for probably another decade if things go well. That said, it is currently better than almost anything else available now and maybe what is available in the future if the airlines continue to get more and bigger airplanes for the regionals. If AA doesn't merge and can force their terms on the pilots, that will be literally hundreds of 86 seaters at the regionals and a mainline with 120 seaters flown at regional rates. That alone will cancel out thousands of good or descent mainline jobs. The 495 may very well not have any better prospects when the time comes. They can also take the recall and then bail if there is something better. Honestly, unless there are some airline union wins before recalls, why wouldn't someone take the recall when they would probably be starting again at the top fo pay with the rest of the benefits that go with it? I really do want to see lots of good options available outside of recall for the 495, but it really is a pretty darn good job if those options aren't there.

 

[BentOver]

Is this sarcasm? The job is the same as it has been for as long as I've been here. Actually, it is easier than when I started. What sucks is that fo's are stuck in the right seat for probably another decade if things go well. That said, it is currently better than almost anything else available now and maybe what is available in the future if the airlines continue to get more and bigger airplanes for the regionals. If AA doesn't merge and can force their terms on the pilots, that will be literally hundreds of 86 seaters at the regionals and a mainline with 120 seaters flown at regional rates. That alone will cancel out thousands of good or descent mainline jobs. The 495 may very well not have any better prospects when the time comes. They can also take the recall and then bail if there is something better. Honestly, unless there are some airline union wins before recalls, why wouldn't someone take the recall when they would probably be starting again at the top fo pay with the rest of the benefits that go with it? I really do want to see lots of good options available outside of recall for the 495, but it really is a pretty darn good job if those options aren't there.

I pretty much agree 100%......

AA is gonna be the next to gain huge scope relief... I believe Delta's contract may be due for negotiations soon..... and so on and so forth.....

IMO, Southwest, UPS, FedEx, and Hawaiian may be the only real viable options for anyone hoping to beat the NJA gig in the USA (and that's got nothing to do with retirements etc.. Just what most likely may end up happening with scope)....

With Southwest being the best option for many hoping to slide into a normalized airline lifestyle. (alot of people always comment how cargo just isn't their thing) And unfortunately I don't think SWA is anywhere close to hiring....

Right seat at NJA isn't all bad..... Atleast the company 401k match is the same for everyone.. My max contribution is the same as the guy next to me. He just has more $$ to invest on the side... Unless of course he's oin his second or third wife, in which case he's just not that smart

But I can see how people are very disgruntled, in which case, try Asia.. And hurry up and leave already!!!!!!!

 

[G4dude]

Is this sarcasm? The job is the same as it has been for as long as I've been here. Actually, it is easier than when I started. What sucks is that fo's are stuck in the right seat for probably another decade if things go well. That said, it is currently better than almost anything else available now and maybe what is available in the future if the airlines continue to get more and bigger airplanes for the regionals. If AA doesn't merge and can force their terms on the pilots, that will be literally hundreds of 86 seaters at the regionals and a mainline with 120 seaters flown at regional rates. That alone will cancel out thousands of good or descent mainline jobs. The 495 may very well not have any better prospects when the time comes. They can also take the recall and then bail if there is something better. Honestly, unless there are some airline union wins before recalls, why wouldn't someone take the recall when they would probably be starting again at the top fo pay with the rest of the benefits that go with it? I really do want to see lots of good options available outside of recall for the 495, but it really is a pretty darn good job if those options aren't there.

I believe the FOs have another 3 to 4 years before upgrade at NJA. Lots of retirements coming, and defections to the airlines. Could be wrong, of course.

 

[jtf]

As far as retirements go, I was able to run the numbers dwight after they announced the early outs when the company put out a memo that showed how many pilots there were for each individual age- both captain and fo. All together there were only about 300 pilots who would be 65 or older (not really when anyone here retires) by the early fall of 2014. Almost 1/3 of them were fo's. Since the furlough, I've moved up almost 85 numbers. Even if all 300 tried tomorrow, there wouldn't be an upgrade with the company at 80+ % captains. Attrition just isn't very high and there really weren't as many old pilots as most believe. Even if lots of pilots start leaving for the majors, most won't be captains. There won't be new captains here for a long, long time unless we grow like crazy and that is not in the company forecast. SIC here is still a pretty good job, but the next contract will need to raise the fo pay scales at least as high for years of service as the captain scales. Topping out at year ten will be unpleasant for many of us.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

:laugh:

I believe the FOs have another 3 to 4 years before upgrade at NJA. Lots of retirements coming, and defections to the airlines. Could be wrong, of course.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:...:crying::crying::crying:.........uke:Man,you really are a loon. You mean well( I guess), but reading your version of reality sure is entertaining.

 

[G4dude]

:laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh:...:crying::crying::crying:.........uke:Man,you really are a loon. You mean well( I guess), but reading your version of reality sure is entertaining.

You could be right, but I was counting on growth beginning in early 2015.

 

[G4dude]

:laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh:...:crying::crying::crying:.........uke:Man,you really are a loon. You mean well( I guess), but reading your version of reality sure is entertaining.

I also tend to be overly optimistic.

 

[OPECJet]

I also tend to be overly optimistic.

I think you're right about being overly optimistic. The company is still in shrink mode airframe wise. It would be nice if they found a glut a new owners. I'm tired of buying my own liquor and flying a desk. At least the money sucks though.

 

[greygoose]

what hire date does the 495 go back to?

 

[jetlag7]

what hire date does the 495 go back to?

November 2006 I believe.

 

[imacdog]

11/2006

 

[doylehargraves]

So when do the recalls begin? I got lost in all the 14 pages of union talk

 

[jtf]

The company is now claiming 2014 if their projections hold. I believe that is only if they are getting their way in negotiations on a new contract. I'm fairly certain they will ask for some form or forms of concessions and if/ hopefully when rebuffed by the union they will say the only way to increase wages will be if the company shrinks. They will threaten all the sic's with furlough and whip out some way to finally downgrade. What I'm not sure about is if it will be a bluff. I think that unless the economy really pushes forward, they plan on shrinking anyway. I prefer calling the bluff and taking a furlough if I must if it eventually gives me a worthwhile job to come back to. I have savings and a plan B. I just how the group will come together once again so I and the current furloughed pilots will have a reason to stay or come back.

 

[LAZYB]

fok 'em

 

[brokeflyer]

wow...you should be asking for raises and less days worked.

 

[BentOver]

The company is now claiming 2014 if their projections hold. I believe that is only if they are getting their way in negotiations on a new contract. I'm fairly certain they will ask for some form or forms of concessions and if/ hopefully when rebuffed by the union they will say the only way to increase wages will be if the company shrinks. They will threaten all the sic's with furlough and whip out some way to finally downgrade. What I'm not sure about is if it will be a bluff. I think that unless the economy really pushes forward, they plan on shrinking anyway. I prefer calling the bluff and taking a furlough if I must if it eventually gives me a worthwhile job to come back to. I have savings and a plan B. I just how the group will come together once again so I and the current furloughed pilots will have a reason to stay or come back.

While all possible, awful hard to push concessions when you're claiming profits.....:beer:

Of course there's always the fake profit reports just before negotiations.. But then again, the EMT has to answer to Buffett and Buffett still answers to share holders...

Given the Netjets saga from 2009-2011 (Sokol) and given ALL those pro Netjets write-ups in the CMH Dispatch and BHK annual reports, a sudden reverse in NJA profits may not be in the EMT's best interest..

There are many ways to look at it, and many ways in which it could go....

If demand is solid, pilots are busy, and the Globals and Phenoms are showing up and selling well. I don't think the furloughees will necessarily be part of negotiations in the way you are saying. (the company may ask to release us, but that's just the first sign they need us back)

If they could shrink more and wanted to shrink more they wouldn't need contract negotiations to do so. They would have done so already.... Same with furlough, they would have done so well before the 4-5 year anniversary of the first furlough...

 

[jtf]

The company continues to shrink and is now flying less year over year. The shrinkage and decrease in flying is more than the pilot attrition rate. If they continue this there is a good reason to furlough again. Hansel has told line pilots and union stewards that he doesn't plan on extending the contract. The extension is cheap. The only reason not to extend it's if they think they can get it cheaper. Demand isn't solid so unless that changes, I dont know why the company wouldn't use the threat of more furloughs as a bargaining tool. It will take the economy really picking up a lot to have the slightest hope of bringing back any furloughs in 2014.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

There is no question that entering section 6 sooner gives the company a strategic advantage in negotiations in lieu of the lethargic economy recovery. But I don't foresee the EMT going scorched earth during the midst of increased sales activities over the course of the next few years. I think the pilot group stands to make some contractual gains by and large, albeit less than an extension into 2016 would have yielded. The caveat being that we can put the pieces of the Association back together again.

 

[BentOver]

There is no question that entering section 6 sooner gives the company a strategic advantage in negotiations in lieu of the lethargic economy recovery. But I don't foresee the EMT going scorched earth during the midst of increased sales activities over the course of the next few years. I think the pilot group stands to make some contractual gains by and large, albeit less than an extension into 2016 would have yielded. The caveat being that we can put the pieces of the Association back together again.

I agree that the tactic of accept this or more furloughs is a bit of a stretch. Didn't work before, won't work in the future with an improving economy. and a company reporting solid profits.....

As we all know, 2013-2015 (or whenever a contract would be completed) is basically an eternity in the US economy.

Also for JTF... I still count 411 a/c on the NJA certificate, not nearly the 300 or 350 that was advertised NJA was heading to.... where are you getting they are still in major shrink mode? Recurrent or something furloughees don't have access to? I've read about the lower demand, but also how the EMT expects to be net positive flight hours for the whole 2012 year. (whether they are right or not is a different story!)

They have a ton of contracts for renewal in 2012.. And a reported 90%+/- retention rate.. Even at a high retention rate that's still alot of new contracts that would need to be signed to break even... Going into the next few years I believe the contracts up for renewal will be far less due to much softer demand in 2009-2012. And that is where the "growth" will lokk better on paper.

 

[jtf]

The company is resigning a very high percentage of customers, but they are coming back with a significantly lower number of hours. Overall the unoccupied airframe numbers continues to climb (at least 70 or 80 according to management). I don't know if management is intentionally shrinking, doing a poor job of selling airplanes, or actually doing the best job possible in the current market. I just know that the companies stated predictions have been wrong in the most important ways since they began making them- we haven't broken even on aircraft sales since the the economy dumped and they have shifted back the year that we would regain peak size every year since they started predicting it. It is always 10 years from the whenever you are in recurrent to when we will be back to where we were and that is probably about the happiest picture they can paint of the future of the company.

It is true that in 2012 so far the disposals have been very minimal, but the majority of the 100+ so far disposed have been to the manufacturers in exchange for orders and we haven't made any more orders for a while. Embraer took 25 immediately after the Phenom order and Bombardier has taken ownership of 35 to 40 airframes that we know of so far since the Global order. The company hasn't ever disclosed if the deals they made would include future exchanges once we actually start taking airframes on property. There can really be no doubt that whoever eventually wins the mid and super mid sized airframe orders will be taking a significant amount of airframes off our hands in exchange also. I would feel quite uncomfortable betting against 30+ airframes vanishing within the next year once the orders are announced since the core fleet according to management is already way too big at 70+ and growing.

Another problem I see is that management is running out of efficiencies to squeeze out of vendor contracts and wherever else they can find ways to save. The efficiencies they have achieved at least may bring some profit from the operations on a continuing basis, but surely not the $200,000,000+ per year they have been claiming. With continued negative sales and nothing else left to squeeze for profits, I believe they will do their best to squeeze us if that is the last place they have left to try to continue the run of efficiency "profits". I hope I'm wrong.

 

[G4dude]

I think you're right about being overly optimistic. The company is still in shrink mode airframe wise. It would be nice if they found a glut a new owners. I'm tired of buying my own liquor and flying a desk. At least the money sucks though.

I wonder if the extra planes will go to China, and if the furloughees will be given a chance to fly there.

 

[BentOver]

I wonder if the extra planes will go to China, and if the furloughees will be given a chance to fly there.

Who knows and what are ya smoking...

 

[fly4funcrj]

Looking at the seniority list, a large amount of pilots are in the larger cabin airframes (falcon and gulf stream). A furlough, imo, would hurt those fleets and the ability to recover trips. I do a lot of recoveries and the falcon. Of course the company could retrain pilots from other fleets but that takes time. Of course I'm just a line puke so and could be out of a job in a few months. I agree that netjets showing profits and then crying poor right before negotiations looks.... Shady. If that happened, maybe a forensic audit could occur and bring to light what's really going on..

 

[jetlag7]

Looking at the seniority list, a large amount of pilots are in the larger cabin airframes (falcon and gulf stream). A furlough, imo, would hurt those fleets and the ability to recover trips. I do a lot of recoveries and the falcon. Of course the company could retrain pilots from other fleets but that takes time. Of course I'm just a line puke so and could be out of a job in a few months. I agree that netjets showing profits and then crying poor right before negotiations looks.... Shady. If that happened, maybe a forensic audit could occur and bring to light what's really going on..

I see where you're coming from, but that didn't exactly stop them the last time.

At the time, the number one recovery fleet was the X. Next in line was the XL. Guess where the majority of furloughed pilots came from????