Netjets New Payscale

[Diesel]

You want to take pot shots at us which is easy to do all day long when you're not doing your own job.

Let's see this week i had a release to an airport that was closed and an airport that had a closed runway which means we had to use the short runway which we didn't have the numbers for.

Guess who caught the mistakes?

 

[hydrarkt]

Cmon Diesel... they're doing their job. I mean, all I had to do was jump the fence at a closed FBO after landing late at night. I only had to call the company to arrange for the limo because the company arranged rental car for the owner was unavailable due to the closed rental office. I only then had to jump the fence to get back to the airplane and then again to get off the field... That's not too bad, is it? But it's ok to the dispatcher because he got to walk down to his car and drive home to his wife and kids and sleep in his own bed and not have to deal with an irrate owner because somebody else who was "doing his job" screwed up.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Whats up dsptchrNJA? No response to my post! I don't see you offering up part of your salary to help out poor old Netjets. How about you working more days for RTS to help out the bottom line. You love to make determinations on what is fair for the pilots. I believe you and everyone else at netjets should be paid market wages. I really don't want to see a worn out post about fractional wages comparisons or that netjets isn't profitable.

From monster.com:
Columbus, OH Dispatcher

50% percentile $34,688
75% percentile $41,196

Columbus, OH Small Jet Captain

50% percentile $96,749
75% percentile $115,096

5th Year Netjets Captain $60,984
63% of what a 50 percentile small jet captain makes
53% of what a 75 percentile small jet captain makes


How does that look for a dispatcher at netjets?
63% of $34,688 = $21,853 or
53% of $41,196 = $21,833

I really hope you are making more than 21k a year. If you don't my apologies.

The new pay proposal still doesn't come close to these values, even working 30 plus days more than we do now. I really hope you can see the smoke and mirrors that the company is pushing.

Sun Tzu - I noticed that you pulled your Dispatcher statistics off of the truck driver section at monster.com. Why didn't you disclose that piece of information when you posted it?

For the record, here's the job description that matches the salary data you posted:

[font=Verdana,arial]Dispatcher[/font]: [font=Verdana,arial]Assigns drivers and vehicles to convey freight or passengers. Coordinates drivers according to customer requests in compliance with DOT regulations and company rules; communicates with customers to determine driver needs and schedules and notifies drivers of assignments; enters assignment data in computer database. Requires a high school diploma with 2-4 years of experience in the field or in a related area. [/font]

[font=Verdana,arial]Do you really think this is an accurate description of what the Dispatchers do in the flight center?[/font]
[font=Verdana,arial][/font]
[font=Verdana,arial]As for your Pilot salary data, IMO a better choice for reference would be airlinepilotpay.com, which yields the following data for a 5 year captain:[/font]
[font=Verdana,arial][/font]
[font=Verdana,arial]NetJets...............60,984
CitationShares..... 63,996
FlightOptions....... 66,372
FlexJet............... 70,737

Delta................ 115,440
American........... 112,128
United................ 93,600
Continental........ 116,640
US Air............... 100,224
America West..... 115,128
JetBlue.............. 101,640
ComAir................ 61,200
Pinnacle.............. 55,800
[/font]

 

[BoilerUP]

Pretty sure the numbers he used for 5 year CA were NBAA numbers for pilots based in CMH.

I would say they are pretty relevent for that reason, and the fact NJA compensation should not be based upon an RJ driver, but that of a pilot flying similar class aircraft out of a similar (or same) city.

 

[dsptchrnja]

You want to take pot shots at us which is easy to do all day long when you're not doing your own job.

Let's see this week i had a release to an airport that was closed and an airport that had a closed runway which means we had to use the short runway which we didn't have the numbers for.

Guess who caught the mistakes?

... But it's ok to the dispatcher because he got to walk down to his car and drive home to his wife and kids and sleep in his own bed and not have to deal with an irrate owner because somebody else who was "doing his job" screwed up.

Nice job on catching the mistakes.

Diesel, Why do you criticize me for taking so called "pot shots" and then in the following sentence make condescending remarks?

Either of you, name one post where I have criticized your job as a pilot. I could point out some very serious errors, that I caught as early as this morning, but I will not stoop to your level and try to demean the NJA flight crews whom I respect. If you want to be paid as a professional start acting like one instead of making school yard insults to people who serve you at work. Last I knew grown-ups can disagree on issues without making it personal.

 

[FamilyGuy]

First off let me say I "don't care" if NJ has the money to pay me or not. If they can't pay they should not be in business. Owners will fly these aircraft somewhere, and it is already happening to some degree.

The question whether NJ has the money to pay is relevant. You may not be interested in flying for the current wages or whatever is agreed upon in the new contract, and you are free to leave if you dont feel it meets your satisfaction, but the hard truth is that there are 8,000+ pilots on furlough right now that would probably be very interested in flying for the current rates or the new ones. The fact that NetJets rates are not that far from the other fractionals and many airlines and they have a proposal for raises between 23-40% shows that they are being competitive for pilot talent.

That being said, I am still here fighting because I believe the money is there...here are a few examples:

1) We pay more for FSI classes then Jet Aviation does
2) The whole Oil thing in HPN
3) Every owner is insured for the full hull on the aircraft even though they only own a share. Who is the owner of the insurance compnay? BH.
4) A 5% increase in owner fees in Oct 2001 would of paid for ADJUSTED NBAA pay with 100% retro. It wound generate about 150 mill a year, or about 7.5% of the 2 billion in revenue....the company is not going to give up 7.5% of return without a fight.

#1 - Dont make claims and not back it up with facts. I've asked in other posts for someone to show me our FSI rates vs someone else that gets a better rate. In this case, what is our rate, and what does Jet Aviation pay?

#2 - I've seen so many references to this oil thing in HPN that I decided to do a little research. It looks like we did about 7000 flights into HPN last year. If every single flight took a quart of oil (unlikely, IMO) then at most EJM would generate $350,000 in revenue (not profit), given the claimed price of $50/qt.

This seems like a lot, but then I asked a simple question....what does it cost to run our facility in HPN? What's the total cost, when we start thinking about wages for staff, utilities, insurance, mortgage (or lease) cost, etc? I dont know what that cost is, but I dont think it would be cheap in New York.

The next question is how many things can NetJets charge for to try and recoup all those expenses?

I dont know the answer to all these questions, but after thinking about it, I dont think EJM is making much money, if any, at HPN.

#3 I didnt think BH was doing aviation insurance, but its possible. What BH company is insuring the aircraft? General Re? Certainly not Geico....

#4 seems like you've got a lot of pricing info for someone who hasnt looked at the company books. What's your source?

Like it or not, even the fractional world is competitive. We are already the most expensive provider....would our owner base support an additional 5% premium without going somewhere else?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Pretty sure the numbers he used for 5 year CA were NBAA numbers for pilots based in CMH.

I would say they are pretty relevent for that reason, and the fact NJA compensation should not be based upon an RJ driver, but that of a pilot flying similar class aircraft out of a similar (or same) city.

The Monster.com website says that their salary info comes from Salary.com, not the NBAA.

And I agree that NJA compensation should be based on pilots flying similar class aircraft out of a similar (or same) city, which is why I posted the rates for Citation Shares, Flight Options, and FlexJet, which is the best comparator out there for our market niche.

 

[Sun Tzu]

Familyguy, you missed the point I was making! It doesnt really matter how much a dispatcher makes at netjets. The point of the demonstration was to see the comparison between percentages. I have not bad mouthed the dispatcher profession, flight managers, or anyone else at netjets. I think it takes a complete team to make things work! I'm am sorry that I missed the truck dispatcher reference, it was not an intentional dig. We are teamsters you know LOL!

 

[Some Dude]

United employees did serve on the board but I believe the pilots did NOT have a voting right on the board.

 

[hydrarkt]

NJA non-bargaining employees tend to be more content with their pay and benefits, do not suffer greatly from false hopes and expectations, and generally don't have bitter feelings towards the company from a sense of being underpaid, or cheated - all resulting in greater satisfaction and QOL.

Dude, you're the one pointing out your better QOL, not me. You brag about non-bargaining employees being all happy and love their QOL. Well, while you non-bargaining employees are happy, it's us bargaining employees that are dealing with and being held responsible for the mistakes of the non bargaining employees... you don't get it and never will. It's not your fault. You just have no idea what goes on on the road.

 

[Diesel]

Dispatcher- Sorry i re read my post and realized i came across to strong. I apologize. My anger was more at family guy and you got caught in the middle.

I do believe the dispatchers at NJA are being overworked. That's why their are mistakes. They are few and far between but we are human. If dispatchers were fleet specific and also had a lot more of them we would be better off.

 

[Some Dude]

Dispatch is overworked so are most of the departments in the casino. I really do feel sorry for most of them. This management team is a wreck.

 

[GVFlyer]

United employees did serve on the board but I believe the pilots did NOT have a voting right on the board.

The Chicago tribune article that I posted eariler in this thread said that they had two voting directors on the board and more importantly:

Under United's ESOP, the pilots and machinists unions had veto power over major decisions--[and] most important, who ran the place.

GV

 

[VmaxFlyR]

Who is Netjets?

The question whether NJ has the money to pay is relevant. You may not be interested in flying for the current wages or whatever is agreed upon in the new contract, and you are free to leave if you dont feel it meets your satisfaction, but the hard truth is that there are 8,000+ pilots on furlough right now that would probably be very interested in flying for the current rates or the new ones. The fact that NetJets rates are not that far from the other fractionals and many airlines and they have a proposal for raises between 23-40% shows that they are being competitive for pilot talent.[End-Quote]


Question:
Why did Netjets atttempt to raise newhire pay, outside (above) current rates, if these 8,000+ furloughed pilots SHOULD have been more than glad to get any flying job, as you state?

What kind of employee should Netjets want to attract, and keep? Committed, long term employees, or those just looking to wait out their furloughed time? Stable companies need stable employees, no?

I thought Netjets preferred "career employees"...if not at least be honest enough at face value, like the commuters were, to represent that Netjets is just a "stop along the way."

 

[Sun Tzu]

8000+ out of work pilots??? Where are they? Last I heard there was only 116 new hires for the year. Netjets must be real picky or they just can't find new hires that want to work 17 day a month for 27k with no upgrade in sight. I have 3 friends that are former airline pilots, that will not come to work at Netjets for the money they are offering. They say they can stay home and make more money and be home every night. Yes, we could leave and go to work somewhere else. Most of us are waiting to see what the contract ends up being. If it doesnt meet what we are looking for, then I'm sure there will be alot of people leaving immediately and a bunch more over the next year. It's easier to find a job if you already have one! This whole contract mess is just business, nothing more, nothing less. If you take it personally then you have no business working for a company that uses Union labor. For all the casino employees that feel threatened by the Union, I'm sure you could go work for CS or Flops!

 

[dsptchrnja]

Heard this week from a training Capt. that we are getting an influx of United pilots and the interview classes are full. Many of these pilots are 16,000+ hour retired guys who are just itchin to fly. Welcome!

 

[VmaxFlyR]

Heard this week from a training Capt. that we are getting an influx of United pilots and the interview classes are full. Many of these pilots are 16,000+ hour retired guys who are just itchin to fly. Welcome!

What a "pleasure" it would probably be to fly with a "retired" (disgruntled?) United guy, whom after a long career, with plans of a nice retirement, foiled by pay and pension cuts, is forced back into the cockpit after age 60...I'm sure they'll be thinking: "this is sure some retirement I got..."

 

[Sun Tzu]

More hearsay from a casino worker. I really doubt there are very many 16000+ hour united guys coming to work here at netjets. If it is true then all the better. We have some of the most active union volunteers that are retired United Captains. They know what they are worth and have been through union busting tactics again and again and are not scared easily. I would rather see 500 retired United pilots than 500 first time CFI's that are just happy to be in the right seat of a shiny new jet. The seniority list will show the facts in the coming weeks.

 

[G4dude]

More hearsay from a casino worker. I really doubt there are very many 16000+ hour united guys coming to work here at netjets. If it is true then all the better. We have some of the most active union volunteers that are retired United Captains. They know what they are worth and have been through union busting tactics again and again and are not scared easily. I would rather see 500 retired United pilots than 500 first time CFI's that are just happy to be in the right seat of a shiny new jet. The seniority list will show the facts in the coming weeks.

Yep! They ruined United, now they can help ruin NJA, jumping off the ALPA broken down nag onto the Teamsters' equally destructive bunch of hooligans.

 

[Sun Tzu]

G4dude, you should move to management if you are not there already. Thinking like that has put the aviation industry in the toliet. Blame labor, blame the pilots, blame this, blame that. When management points a finger at pilots for causing a company to fall they have 3 fingers pointing back at themselves. Unions and organized pilots are not the problem! Last I checked, Southwest Pilots and Flight Attendents were unionized and I don't see their management blaming them for the current situation. There are more examples of poor leadership and bad management decisions than there are of Unions ruining an industry or company. It is real easy to make labor the vilian, while hiding mismanagement of resources and poor decisions.

 

[CapnVegetto]

G4dude, you should move to management if you are not there already. Thinking like that has put the aviation industry in the toliet. Blame labor, blame the pilots, blame this, blame that. When management points a finger at pilots for causing a company to fall they have 3 fingers pointing back at themselves. Unions and organized pilots are not the problem! Last I checked, Southwest Pilots and Flight Attendents were unionized and I don't see their management blaming them for the current situation. There are more examples of poor leadership and bad management decisions than there are of Unions ruining an industry or company. It is real easy to make labor the vilian, while hiding mismanagement of resources and poor decisions.

Couldn't have been said any better by anyone. Anybody that wants to blame labor just needs to look at SWA. Highest paid, best treated labor in the business, and just look at them. They are on top because of innovative and smart management, as well as labor that is treated right and willing to work their butt off for management that they trust.

When was the last time you heard SWA labor complaining about their managment being dishonest, cooking the books, lining their pockets, etc. NEVER. NJA, FLOPS, every major, and every regional should be learning from this, yet the vast majority of managment teams out there still seem to think 'rape your labor and line your pockets' is a valid business plan.

 

[Some Dude]

The retired guys on my fleet are very strong union. I just had a retired guy three tours ago. It was only his 4th tour. He can't believe how hard we work. He also believed we were truely some of the best pilots he has ever flown with. His comment was "the captains at NJA have ten times the responsiblity that I ever had my whole airline career." He also said "if the pay doesn't come up here then I'm going to leave." Welcome indeed.

 

[Muddauber]

G4dude, you should move to management if you are not there already. Thinking like that has put the aviation industry in the toliet. Blame labor, blame the pilots, blame this, blame that. When management points a finger at pilots for causing a company to fall they have 3 fingers pointing back at themselves. Unions and organized pilots are not the problem! Last I checked, Southwest Pilots and Flight Attendents were unionized and I don't see their management blaming them for the current situation. There are more examples of poor leadership and bad management decisions than there are of Unions ruining an industry or company. It is real easy to make labor the vilian, while hiding mismanagement of resources and poor decisions.

Southwest pilots belong to SWAPA, a non-profit financially responsible employee organization. The flight attendants belong to the Transport Workers Union Local 556. In the long run, Southwest cannot afford the contract that they signed with the flight attendants last year. As you probably recall they were threatening to picket our opening of the Pittsburgh base. We are only profitable right now because of fuel oil and unleaded gasoline fuel hedging.

Muddy

 

[FamilyGuy]

This whole contract mess is just business, nothing more, nothing less. If you take it personally then you have no business working for a company that uses Union labor. For all the casino employees that feel threatened by the Union, I'm sure you could go work for CS or Flops!

I agree, contract negotiations are simply business. I dont see anyone in the flight center taking the negotiations personally. In fact, most people here support your case to get a fair raise. We know all the hard work that the pilots do every day.

What I do see people in the flight center taking personally is all the misleading and disparaging attacks being made a small group of union militants in public forums such as this board in an effort to discredit a very good company.

All we want is for this group to treat the negotiations as business as well....stop the public bashing and go back in and negotiate based on the facts.

That includes stopping all the public rants against the company on these boards. If you dont want to see us on these boards then stop posting the misleading statements and personal attacks on the company and we have no reason to be here....

 

[FamilyGuy]

Question:
Why did Netjets atttempt to raise newhire pay, outside (above) current rates, if these 8,000+ furloughed pilots SHOULD have been more than glad to get any flying job, as you state?

What kind of employee should Netjets want to attract, and keep? Committed, long term employees, or those just looking to wait out their furloughed time? Stable companies need stable employees, no?

I thought Netjets preferred "career employees"...if not at least be honest enough at face value, like the commuters were, to represent that Netjets is just a "stop along the way."

I think you answered your own question Vmax. The company tried to raise the newhire rate, no strings attached, because it was the right thing to do and they want committed, long term employees here.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Couldn't have been said any better by anyone. Anybody that wants to blame labor just needs to look at SWA. Highest paid, best treated labor in the business, and just look at them. They are on top because of innovative and smart management, as well as labor that is treated right and willing to work their butt off for management that they trust.

When was the last time you heard SWA labor complaining about their managment being dishonest, cooking the books, lining their pockets, etc. NEVER. NJA, FLOPS, every major, and every regional should be learning from this, yet the vast majority of managment teams out there still seem to think 'rape your labor and line your pockets' is a valid business plan.

Capn - no one here at NetJets is blaming labor. No one here at NetJets is asking for concessions from labor. NetJets has an offer of 23%-40% raises on the table to the pilot group.

For perspective, here's the current payscales for 5 year captain for NetJets, the other fractionals, and a sampling of airlines. All data came from airlinepilotpay.com.
[font=Verdana,arial][/font]
[font=Verdana,arial]NetJets...............60,984
CitationShares..... 63,996
FlightOptions....... 66,372
FlexJet............... 70,737

Delta................ 115,440
American........... 112,128
United................ 93,600
Continental........ 116,640
US Air............... 100,224
America West..... 115,128
JetBlue.............. 101,640
ComAir................ 61,200
Pinnacle.............. 55,800
[/font]

Last time I looked putting raises of this magnitude on the table doesnt fall into the category of "raping your labor and lining your pockets".

 

[cgmason1]

Just to play devils advocate-the numbers you posted for a 5 year Cpt at JetBlue would be right if they only flew 70 hours and got min guarantee.

Most 5 year JB CPT's are flying in the 80 plus range and with the time and a half above 70 earn in the neighborhood of 130k plus per year.

Also for the record-I have worked at NetJets and JB and the job at NetJets is allot harder with allot more details to worry about to provide a quality product.
NJA guys should be paid for the quality product they produce and the many many minute details they have to worry about-I won't even get into the issue of flying into a different airport day after day in regards to the dangers and issues that represents.
ie crew that had a brake failure in the Ultra in Texas, and still managed to pull the owners out of a burning aircraft-how much is that worth?

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[Fozzy]

[QUOTE=dsptchrNJA]Heard this week from a training Capt. that we are getting an influx of United pilots and the interview classes are full. Many of these pilots are 16,000+ hour retired guys who are just itchin to fly. Welcome![/QUOTE]

LIAR!!! I call Bull$hit! You are such a fing mole. I may be coming off strong but you are so full of "I was hired by NJA to post this complete crap" that I want to strangle you.

I was just at FSI CMH. Our IP was very forthcoming on how things really are. (better tell your boss to put a muzzle on the FSI folks) And let me tell you, it is not good. New hires are walking out, during class and sim. One guy, right in the middle of the sim, "I don't need this $hit" and quit. God bless him. New hires with LESS than the min's required. Classes half full. Many of the new hires are shady at best. And now the company wants to put an end to IOE. Boy Gary, that is a smart move. Our IP was a very worried about signing off these guys for the line.

So where are the thousands of pilots hungry for NJA??!!?? Sorry moron they don't exist!

 

[dsptchrnja]

LIAR!!! I call Bull$hit! You are such a fing mole. I may be coming off strong but you are so full of "I was hired by NJA to post this complete crap" that I want to strangle you.

I was just at FSI CMH. Our IP was very forthcoming on how things really are. (better tell your boss to put a muzzle on the FSI folks) And let me tell you, it is not good. New hires are walking out, during class and sim. One guy, right in the middle of the sim, "I don't need this $hit" and quit. God bless him. New hires with LESS than the min's required. Classes half full. Many of the new hires are shady at best. And now the company wants to put an end to IOE. Boy Gary, that is a smart move. Our IP was a very worried about signing off these guys for the line.

So where are the thousands of pilots hungry for NJA??!!?? Sorry moron they don't exist!

Not sure if you calling me a liar for making up what I heard or the pilot a liar for telling me that. Either way, like Sun Tzu said, if it's true it will show up on the seniority lists soon.

I think what is striking about your post is your abhorrence to anything that might be interpreted as a positive news for the company. Your blatent hatred and vengence for this company is exactly the reason your non-bargaining associates are not lining up behind you. In fact you are scaring them. I highly recommend you find work where the prosperity of the company doesn't threaten you so much. If a new-hire can't even make it through the sim - I agree - God bless him for knowing his limits and tolerences and quiting rather than revolting. He's sounds smart to me. You on the other hand, are scary.

 

[Some Dude]

Family Guy you are such an idiot to believe the company wants long term employees (pilots). If that were true then why the heck would they hire any retired airline guys. They guys are only going to work mabe three years at the most. The guys I have talked to are just staying until the training contract is over. Once again gets some nuts and tell what your job is at NJA. You have NO common sense in regards to this company that I really do think your are just some stooge the company hired to write some posts. The company should get their money back because you don't make any points with real facts.