NetJets International Interview

[FracCapt]

You bet your non-union happy ass. Ever been part of a real union? I mean, one that the NMB didn't need to get involved with? TWA/AA integration? Yeah, I was part of that one and didn't fare well, despite the APA. Did you ever apply and get accepted with a REAL airline? If you're not union, roll over and die!

Big talk for somebody that's totally anonymous. Good thing you're just some 14 year old punk that got on mommys computer while she was in her drunken stupor and not a real pilot. Go away troll....or should I say...roll over and die.

 

[Publishers]

The first step in that process will be the separation from Gulfstream because until then, there will not even be a discussion about them being a part of the union. Until then, the matter is mute.

No Gulfstream, no EJI at all.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

How is NJI pat of Gulfstream? They aren't. They are part of Netjets.

NetJets Inc includes EJM, NJI and NJA. Don't see Gulfstream in there.

Netjets sells NetJet shares which include cross-over between all of our aircraft from the Ultra to GV. From an owners standpoint it is all one company providing one service.

 

[GVFlyer]

There are maintenance, joint marketing and sales agreements currently existing between Gulfstream and NJI. Gulfstream Shares sells Shares to existing Gulfstream customers and large cabin aircraft owners. NJI sells Gulfstream Shares to mid and small cabin aircraft owners as well as "Concept Buyers."


Tenets of this agreement are Gulfstream experience requirements for NJI pilots and a non-compete agreement which stipulates that Gulfstream will not sell their products to competitors of NetJets and in turn NetJets will not sell competing products, such as the Global Express, to their clients. Extremely competitive Gulfstream product pricing for NetJets is also a component of this agreement.


GV

 

[Publishers]

Thank you GV -- several posts earlier outlined the history and origin behind this deal with Gulfstream and it was Gulfstream that determined how the piliot corp would be handled and hired. No Gulfstream, no EJI, pretty simple.

 

[Diesel]

So then you can understand why RTS was so po'ed about the G200 because at the time Gulfstream was giving Avolar a killer deal on Gulfstreams by financing them.

Publishers as usual is trying to troll as he likes to do.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Sorry but that is all pretty weak. So there is a relationship between Gulfstream and NJI. Yeah no kidding. NJIs relation with NJA is much greater in every way. I mean I fly a Hawker and we use Raytheon maintenance. So what.

 

[Publishers]

Well usually he who does the financing makes the rules. I believe that Gulfstream was quite specific about how this who deal was to run. If Netjets does not need support from Gulfstream, well then they can do what they want.

Just what great benefit is there to Netjets to have this separate entity?

Same thing about EJM, there was a different need and they are trying to fill it.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

The thing about NJI that frosts us NJA guys when we think about it is simple. We were cruising along with this whole fractional thing, adding new aircraft types to the fleet and all is well. Then the Gulfstreams come along and for some reason a whole new non-union entity is created to fly these airplanes. I have heard a couple different versions of how this came to be and honestly I can say I don't know the whole truth of the matter.

But it makes us kinda mad and a little worried and it shouldn't be hard to see why. What is stop NetJets from creating another non-union branch the next time they decide to buy a new type of airplane? The answer of course is scope. Why our union allowed NJI to slip by is pretty hard to imagine.

When looking at NetJets from a historical perspective it is clear... those guys are flying our airplanes.

 

[FracCapt]

Why our union allowed NJI to slip by is pretty hard to imagine.

No, it's not hard at all to imagine....your contract did not have sufficient scope language. Pretty simple, actually. It's just something that needs to be fixed with your next(this) contract.

 

[AA717driver]

So they aren't even trying to dump on management, this is just a seat grab...TC

 

[Majik]

So they aren't even trying to dump on management, this is just a seat grab...TC

No, just the opposite. It will be a "dump" on management. It is also an attempt to take back control of seats that were taken by non-union pilots. I don't think NJI pilots took those jobs specifically because they were non-union jobs, but they had to know it was a way for the company to try to work around our weak scope language.
Let's say you fly for Delta. Let's say management created a subsidiary and called it Song, and hired non-union workers to fill those seats. Don't you think the Delta pilots would want to try to fix that? Would you be unhappy with the Delta guys if they tried to regain those seats that went to Song?
It's definitely more about management than it is about the pilots. Granted, I've talked to many NJI pilots that express a very negative attitude toward NJA pilots, so I won't lose very much sleep if they are upset that we may pursue single carrier status and add their aircraft to NJA's fleet. They are welcome to come with the aircraft if they desire or they can choose to leave. Doesn't really matter to me. You don't think they would expect to have a seniority number higher than any pilot that has been paying dues, do you?
Bottom line, we're just trying to legally correct something the company did. It will be up to the courts to decide. If that makes us "boogey men" in your eyes, then so be it.

 

[NJA Capt]

Let's say you fly for Delta. Let's say management created a subsidiary and called it Song, and hired non-union workers to fill those seats. Don't you think the Delta pilots would want to try to fix that? Would you be unhappy with the Delta guys if they tried to regain those seats that went to Song?

Lets streamline this analogy a little.

Delta creates a non-union division "Song" that will only fly B-747-400s on the Pacific rim. They decide to hire from outside because Boeing said that none of Delta's pilots can handle a plane with 4 engines. They pay "Song" Captains 3 times what mainline B777 Capts are paid (same routes).

Do you thing Delta mainline (union) pilots would try to merge the flying?
Your darn right they would!

Would Mainline pilots want the same pay?
Darn right they would!

Do you think Mainline pilots would want the new (non-union, non-dues paying) pilots
integrated by DOH?
N-E-V-E-R!!!!!!!!!!

Would they go for stapling?
You bet you last dollar they would.

Now, in the post above, substitute:
NJA for Delta/Mainline
NJI for Song
Falcon/C750 for B777
Gulfstream for B747
Europe/Asia for Pacific rim



For comparison:
NJA has approx 330 aircraft, 1900 pilots, 11 types, started 1986
NJI has approx 50 aircraft, 300 pilots, 2 types, started 1995

 

[da90drivr]

NJA Capt,

Were the NJA pilots prevented in any way other than experience requirements from interviewing and being hired by NJI?

NJA operates many different fleet types and they continue to buy aircraft catering to people who want shares in that size aircraft and hiring new pilots to fly them. NJI flies G4 and 5's. I fail to see how they are taking your jobs and stealing your flying. Because of Gulfstreams involvment in the marketing and sale of the planes they stipulated certain requirements of the crews.

I don't have a dog in this fight but is interesting how one group will try to screw another just to get what they think is theirs. Your scope clause was weak when NJI was formed (your prob. not theirs) I am sure the pilots did not take those jobs in an effort to take "your flying". You are trying to fix your scope problems but why not find a way to fix it without screwing other pilots.

What are you willing to give up in negotiations to get better scope? Contract negotiations involves both give and take. Are you willing to give up money? work rules?
If you think the courts will just give it to you refer to Mesa / Freedom airlines. Freedom was negotiated away with contract consessions.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[Majik]

Were the NJA pilots prevented in any way other than experience requirements from interviewing and being hired by NJI?

Nope, and some NJA pilots left for NJI. So, what's your point, that union pilots were not prevented from applying for the non-union division that Santulli created? I guess there would be nothing preventing the Delta mainline pilots from taking the Song jobs in the above anology.

NJA operates many different fleet types and they continue to buy aircraft catering to people who want shares in that size aircraft and hiring new pilots to fly them. NJI flies G4 and 5's. I fail to see how they are taking your jobs and stealing your flying. Because of Gulfstreams involvment in the marketing and sale of the planes they stipulated certain requirements of the crews.

Same way we would have felt if Santulli and Boeing would have prevented NJA from operating the BBJ (which they tried and failed). Every jet that goes to NJI (or any other subsidiary that Santulli might create) is one less jet that could and should be operated by NJA pilots. Were we wrong to fight for the BBJ to be operated by NJA?

I don't have a dog in this fight but is interesting how one group will try to screw another just to get what they think is theirs. Your scope clause was weak when NJI was formed (your prob. not theirs) I am sure the pilots did not take those jobs in an effort to take "your flying". You are trying to fix your scope problems but why not find a way to fix it without screwing other pilots.

We're not screwing them. They can stay with the planes if they want to. They can remain in their seats if they want to. Yes, the scope clause was weak then and Santulli took advantage of it. Now, if a judge thinks the single carrier petetion applies and is fair, then we will take advantage of it. It's business. We are just playing Santulli's game and using the available rules. If we have no case, then we have no case. Play your "Screw Card" evenly to both sides, not just in favor of Santulli.

What are you willing to give up in negotiations to get better scope? Contract negotiations involves both give and take. Are you willing to give up money? work rules? If you think the courts will just give it to you refer to Mesa / Freedom airlines. Freedom was negotiated away with contract consessions.
I look forward to your reply.

Don't know. We may pass on the single carrier deal for more money. I'm interested to see if there's a counter-offer and what it is. As far as scope, it's worthless if we don't get a significant raise because we would still be one of the lowest paid fractionals. The higher the raise, the more important scope becomes to protect ourselves from being "duplicated". To answer your question, we won't really know what we'll get unless we put the cards on the table and see what the company is willing to give in to. Wouldn't you agree that it would be foolish to not consider playing all of the cards we have in our hand and leave money on the table?

 

[NJA Capt]

NJA Capt,

Were the NJA pilots prevented in any way other than experience requirements from interviewing and being hired by NJI?

No way to transfer between companies. We must quit first then interview with NJI like everyone else.

I fail to see how they are taking your jobs and stealing your flying. Because of Gulfstreams involvement in the marketing and sale of the planes they stipulated certain requirements of the crews.

Boeing stipulated things too, but they were still flown by njA pilots.

…interesting how one group will try to screw another just to get what they think is theirs. … why not find a way to fix it without screwing other pilots?

Why do you think we are trying to screw them? We have never said anything about “getting back at the pilots” or the company for that matter. We never said we wanted to take their planes and kick their pilots to the curb. There would surely be a fence protecting THEM and US during a merger. From a business standpoint it only makes sense to combine us. Why have two operations/organizations flying the same passengers under the same name? As someone said before, if we are to be totally separate, then we should not be allowed to cover their trips and visa versa.

What are you willing to give up in negotiations to get better scope? Contract negotiations involves both give and take. Are you willing to give up money? work rules?

I think we have given concessions already.
Our union negotiated the 7/7 schedule….guess who else got it?

Our union hotel committee arranged hotel rates and transportation…..Guess who else utilizes it?

Our union arranged the “crew lounge” in our hotel in TEB…..guess who else uses it?

MESA was also forced to combine operations a few years ago, instead of running a dozen separate operations.

I say if we are going to be the same family, let’s act like the same family.
One name, one roof.

 

[da90drivr]

I think we have given concessions already.
Our union negotiated the 7/7 schedule….guess who else got it?

Our union hotel committee arranged hotel rates and transportation…..Guess who else utilizes it?

Our union arranged the “crew lounge” in our hotel in TEB…..guess who else uses it?

MESA was also forced to combine operations a few years ago, instead of running a dozen separate operations.

I say if we are going to be the same family, let’s act like the same family.
One name, one roof.

What you mention above are not concessions they are benefits.

The hotel rates your hotel committee arranged benefit the company not the other pilot group.

I was asking what you are willing to give back to the company to merge the two companies the pilot groups and aircraft.

Mesa merged operations but had three separate pilot groups. CCair, Mesa and Freedom. Freedom was eliminated after major concessions by the pilot group during contract negotiations.

re. the screwing the other pilot group, I was referring to those who wanted the planes, the seats and a staple with no reference to fences.

 

[Majik]

I was asking what you are willing to give back to the company to merge the two companies the pilot groups and aircraft.

NOTHING!!! The question is, "What is the company willing to give NJA pilots to prevent us from pursuing legal remedies that would force the merger of the two subsidiaries."
Look, if a court decides that NJI and NJA are similar operations, operated by the same company, then it will rule that the two should combine. That would be a win for NJA pilots.
If Santulli decides he doesn't want his NJI operations combined with NJA, then he may want to play "Let's Make A Deal." We will definitely consider his offer. Either way, NJA pilots benefit. So to answer your question - We Don't Have To Give Up Anything and I'm surprised that you would think that we would or should.

 

[da90drivr]

NOTHING!!! The question is, "What is the company willing to give NJA pilots to prevent us from pursuing legal remedies that would force the merger of the two subsidiaries."
Look, if a court decides that NJI and NJA are similar operations, operated by the same company, then it will rule that the two should combine. That would be a win for NJA pilots.
If Santulli decides he doesn't want his NJI operations combined with NJA, then he may want to play "Let's Make A Deal." We will definitely consider his offer. Either way, NJA pilots benefit. So to answer your question - We Don't Have To Give Up Anything and I'm surprised that you would think that we would or should.

What is the plan if the court decides your operations are different?
You seem to have alot of confidence in the court ruling in your favor. With this threat looming over managements head why are they not at the table trying to make a deal?
You have very little bargining power under the RLA until you are released for "self help".

In a perfect world pilots would not have to give up anything for decent work rules, pay and benefits. I do hope you get an industry leading contract. It gives the next group in line a better jumping off point.

 

[NJA Capt]

The hotel rates your hotel committee arranged benefit the company not the other pilot group.

Mesa merged operations but had three separate pilot groups. CCair, Mesa and Freedom. Freedom was eliminated after major concessions by the pilot group during contract negotiations.

True, rates benefit the company, what I was refering to is the type hotel (Embassy, Hilton, Hyatt), free movies, breakfast, internet, exclusive transportation for NetJet Crews etc.

I'm not real sure what you mean by your Mesa analogy.....Everybody Mesa touches is eliminated. Look at it the other way, Mesa was not allowed to continue operating CCA, Florida Gulf, etc seperately. They had to combine under a common ticket....that's what we want.

 

[Majik]

What is the plan if the court decides your operations are different?
You seem to have alot of confidence in the court ruling in your favor. With this threat looming over managements head why are they not at the table trying to make a deal?
You have very little bargining power under the RLA until you are released for "self help".

In a perfect world pilots would not have to give up anything for decent work rules, pay and benefits. I do hope you get an industry leading contract. It gives the next group in line a better jumping off point.

If the court says no, then we accept the decision and move on, no big deal. I feel confident that NJA and NJI are similar. I'm not sure why you don't think so. If you saw the two operations you would not see any difference except the type of plane used and the pilot uniforms. Otherwise, we'd have a different subsidary for every type of plane we fly.
Our last MEC tried to foster a relationship between the pilots and management like the one Herb had with the SWA pilots. Problem is, Santulli ain't no Herb. We are about to get a new MEC that is willing to play by "Santulli Rules". That means everything is legal and no blow is too low. We will use every tool in the drawer to try to negotiate a better position. That's all this is, a negotiating tool in our effort to get an improved contract.

 

[Publishers]

They may not be your airplanes. Who is financing this deal???

 

[Starman]

Publishers,

The owners are financing the deal. They buy the aircraft. NetJets makes a profit on the sale. Gulfstream makes a profit on the sale. NetJets operates the aircraft for the owners. NetJets makes a profit on operations.

I'm trying to figure out how you can profess to be this big business expert but fail to grasp this fairly simple equation.

 

[Publishers]

Ah Starman, I see you missed the point again. Who financed the joint venture and is Gulfstream providing any financing for the owners shares of the aircraft.

 

[Majik]

The planes are operated by NetJets. Gulfstream may have financed a portion of them, I don't know. But they are OPERATED by NetJets. If the judge rules that NJI is similar enough of an operation to NJA then it doesn't matter if Santulli borrowed money from Gulfstream to finance the order. If Gulfstream dosn't like the judges ruling, they can stop selling planes to NetJets or accept the fact that the jets they sell will be flown by unionized pilots. I'm sure if there's a financing problem, Uncle Warren might be able to scratch up enough for the deposits to cover what Gulfstream may have provided.

 

[Starman]

Ah Starman, I see you missed the point again. Who financed the joint venture and is Gulfstream providing any financing for the owners shares of the aircraft.

I missed nothing oh great sage.

I know a smoke screen when I see it. The Gulfstream argument is just such a smokescreen. If there was ever a more clear cut case of single carrier status, I've never seen it. NetJets was nervous enough about it to move all the NJI management guys back down to SAV this summer once they got wind that the NJA pilots were really discontent and likely to push forward with a petition. I'm betting the judge rules that it was too little...too late.

 

[CRAWDADDY]

True, rates benefit the company, what I was refering to is the type hotel (Embassy, Hilton, Hyatt), free movies, breakfast, internet, exclusive transportation for NetJet Crews etc.

Agreed, the NJI and EJM crews take avantage of all the benefits our travel committee got for us. Rates, rooms, trans, exercise rooms, internet, crew lounge etc. Kick them out!!!

 

[da90drivr]

Well, at least your union was able to get you something. It seems from all of the whining on this board that the pay still sucks and no new contract in three years of negotiating. But that's ok you get free internet.

I have always arranged for free internet for my crew, usually you just have to ask. The better hotels have a fitness center or offer a free pass to an outside vendor.

Agreed, the NJI and EJM crews take avantage of all the benefits our travel committee got for us. Rates, rooms, trans, exercise rooms, internet, crew lounge etc. Kick them out!!!

 

[Publishers]

Well, I do not know what the current situation is but I know in SEC filings that GD/Gulfstream consider Gulfstream Shares and their lease finance operation one of their critical assets at least as far as 1999. When started in 1995 with Netjets, they provided $500 million in aircraft that may have been difficult for Netjets to deal with on their own.

There is no question that EJI would not even have existed if it had not been for the support and desire of Gulftream.

It would also be pretty easy for this to be disolved to the Gulfstream side and leave Netjets out of it. Frankly you guys have an identity crisis going on, one minute you think you are an NBAA type company, a few minutes later an airline type company.

There is no motion on that side of the house to join your side and I am sure that it was only your efforts that won them benefits. That aside, I see little coming out of all this militancy that will be productive. The 82% vote that everyone is so proud of says to me that the last three years of negotiation has been a total waste. To say that the MEC did not know what you wanted and yet sent this up for a vote says that there is either no communication or the leadership did not feel you could get anything like what you wanted.

It sounds like your attention to EJI reflects the fact that you just do not like it that there is a group not bitching and who does not want to be part of the mess being made of Netjets.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

It would also be pretty easy for this to be disolved to the Gulfstream side and leave Netjets out of it.

I don't understand this.. are you saying NJI could split off from NetJets? With Gulfstream operating as its own fractional company?

If that's what you are saying then you truely have no concept of how fractional flying works.

Actually that seems to be the case anyhow. Weren't you the one saying that fractional operations are inefficient due to ferrying? One of the key problems that fractional ownership was created to solve?

There is matter of scale that is crucial unless you are just aiming to be a regional fractional operator. The idea is to have enough airplanes to be able to cover any trip with an airplane thats already nearby. This isn't always possible but the more airplanes you have the more often it will be possible.

There is also the case of the Gulfstream share owners that like to downgrade to smaller planes as appropriate to the travel being done.

Do you realize how often the type of airplane used on a given day is different than the type the owner has a share in? All the time.

By buying a NetJet share you gain access to our entire fleet.. with no distinction between NJA or NJI. Most customers who have been flown on both probably have no idea there is any difference.

The bottom line is NetJets is marketed and sold as a single brand with seamless operational blending of the two. It is a single carrier.