NetJets International Interview

[FracCapt]

You bet your non-union happy ass. Ever been part of a real union? I mean, one that the NMB didn't need to get involved with? TWA/AA integration? Yeah, I was part of that one and didn't fare well, despite the APA. Did you ever apply and get accepted with a REAL airline? If you're not union, roll over and die!

Big talk for somebody that's totally anonymous. Good thing you're just some 14 year old punk that got on mommys computer while she was in her drunken stupor and not a real pilot. Go away troll....or should I say...roll over and die.

 

[Publishers]

The first step in that process will be the separation from Gulfstream because until then, there will not even be a discussion about them being a part of the union. Until then, the matter is mute.

No Gulfstream, no EJI at all.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

How is NJI pat of Gulfstream? They aren't. They are part of Netjets.

NetJets Inc includes EJM, NJI and NJA. Don't see Gulfstream in there.

Netjets sells NetJet shares which include cross-over between all of our aircraft from the Ultra to GV. From an owners standpoint it is all one company providing one service.

 

[GVFlyer]

There are maintenance, joint marketing and sales agreements currently existing between Gulfstream and NJI. Gulfstream Shares sells Shares to existing Gulfstream customers and large cabin aircraft owners. NJI sells Gulfstream Shares to mid and small cabin aircraft owners as well as "Concept Buyers."


Tenets of this agreement are Gulfstream experience requirements for NJI pilots and a non-compete agreement which stipulates that Gulfstream will not sell their products to competitors of NetJets and in turn NetJets will not sell competing products, such as the Global Express, to their clients. Extremely competitive Gulfstream product pricing for NetJets is also a component of this agreement.


GV

 

[Publishers]

Thank you GV -- several posts earlier outlined the history and origin behind this deal with Gulfstream and it was Gulfstream that determined how the piliot corp would be handled and hired. No Gulfstream, no EJI, pretty simple.

 

[Diesel]

So then you can understand why RTS was so po'ed about the G200 because at the time Gulfstream was giving Avolar a killer deal on Gulfstreams by financing them.

Publishers as usual is trying to troll as he likes to do.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Sorry but that is all pretty weak. So there is a relationship between Gulfstream and NJI. Yeah no kidding. NJIs relation with NJA is much greater in every way. I mean I fly a Hawker and we use Raytheon maintenance. So what.

 

[Publishers]

Well usually he who does the financing makes the rules. I believe that Gulfstream was quite specific about how this who deal was to run. If Netjets does not need support from Gulfstream, well then they can do what they want.

Just what great benefit is there to Netjets to have this separate entity?

Same thing about EJM, there was a different need and they are trying to fill it.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

The thing about NJI that frosts us NJA guys when we think about it is simple. We were cruising along with this whole fractional thing, adding new aircraft types to the fleet and all is well. Then the Gulfstreams come along and for some reason a whole new non-union entity is created to fly these airplanes. I have heard a couple different versions of how this came to be and honestly I can say I don't know the whole truth of the matter.

But it makes us kinda mad and a little worried and it shouldn't be hard to see why. What is stop NetJets from creating another non-union branch the next time they decide to buy a new type of airplane? The answer of course is scope. Why our union allowed NJI to slip by is pretty hard to imagine.

When looking at NetJets from a historical perspective it is clear... those guys are flying our airplanes.

 

[FracCapt]

Why our union allowed NJI to slip by is pretty hard to imagine.

No, it's not hard at all to imagine....your contract did not have sufficient scope language. Pretty simple, actually. It's just something that needs to be fixed with your next(this) contract.

 

[AA717driver]

So they aren't even trying to dump on management, this is just a seat grab...TC

 

[Majik]

So they aren't even trying to dump on management, this is just a seat grab...TC

No, just the opposite. It will be a "dump" on management. It is also an attempt to take back control of seats that were taken by non-union pilots. I don't think NJI pilots took those jobs specifically because they were non-union jobs, but they had to know it was a way for the company to try to work around our weak scope language.
Let's say you fly for Delta. Let's say management created a subsidiary and called it Song, and hired non-union workers to fill those seats. Don't you think the Delta pilots would want to try to fix that? Would you be unhappy with the Delta guys if they tried to regain those seats that went to Song?
It's definitely more about management than it is about the pilots. Granted, I've talked to many NJI pilots that express a very negative attitude toward NJA pilots, so I won't lose very much sleep if they are upset that we may pursue single carrier status and add their aircraft to NJA's fleet. They are welcome to come with the aircraft if they desire or they can choose to leave. Doesn't really matter to me. You don't think they would expect to have a seniority number higher than any pilot that has been paying dues, do you?
Bottom line, we're just trying to legally correct something the company did. It will be up to the courts to decide. If that makes us "boogey men" in your eyes, then so be it.

 

[NJA Capt]

Let's say you fly for Delta. Let's say management created a subsidiary and called it Song, and hired non-union workers to fill those seats. Don't you think the Delta pilots would want to try to fix that? Would you be unhappy with the Delta guys if they tried to regain those seats that went to Song?

Lets streamline this analogy a little.

Delta creates a non-union division "Song" that will only fly B-747-400s on the Pacific rim. They decide to hire from outside because Boeing said that none of Delta's pilots can handle a plane with 4 engines. They pay "Song" Captains 3 times what mainline B777 Capts are paid (same routes).

Do you thing Delta mainline (union) pilots would try to merge the flying?
Your darn right they would!

Would Mainline pilots want the same pay?
Darn right they would!

Do you think Mainline pilots would want the new (non-union, non-dues paying) pilots
integrated by DOH?
N-E-V-E-R!!!!!!!!!!

Would they go for stapling?
You bet you last dollar they would.

Now, in the post above, substitute:
NJA for Delta/Mainline
NJI for Song
Falcon/C750 for B777
Gulfstream for B747
Europe/Asia for Pacific rim



For comparison:
NJA has approx 330 aircraft, 1900 pilots, 11 types, started 1986
NJI has approx 50 aircraft, 300 pilots, 2 types, started 1995

 

[da90drivr]

NJA Capt,

Were the NJA pilots prevented in any way other than experience requirements from interviewing and being hired by NJI?

NJA operates many different fleet types and they continue to buy aircraft catering to people who want shares in that size aircraft and hiring new pilots to fly them. NJI flies G4 and 5's. I fail to see how they are taking your jobs and stealing your flying. Because of Gulfstreams involvment in the marketing and sale of the planes they stipulated certain requirements of the crews.

I don't have a dog in this fight but is interesting how one group will try to screw another just to get what they think is theirs. Your scope clause was weak when NJI was formed (your prob. not theirs) I am sure the pilots did not take those jobs in an effort to take "your flying". You are trying to fix your scope problems but why not find a way to fix it without screwing other pilots.

What are you willing to give up in negotiations to get better scope? Contract negotiations involves both give and take. Are you willing to give up money? work rules?
If you think the courts will just give it to you refer to Mesa / Freedom airlines. Freedom was negotiated away with contract consessions.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[Majik]

Were the NJA pilots prevented in any way other than experience requirements from interviewing and being hired by NJI?

Nope, and some NJA pilots left for NJI. So, what's your point, that union pilots were not prevented from applying for the non-union division that Santulli created? I guess there would be nothing preventing the Delta mainline pilots from taking the Song jobs in the above anology.

NJA operates many different fleet types and they continue to buy aircraft catering to people who want shares in that size aircraft and hiring new pilots to fly them. NJI flies G4 and 5's. I fail to see how they are taking your jobs and stealing your flying. Because of Gulfstreams involvment in the marketing and sale of the planes they stipulated certain requirements of the crews.

Same way we would have felt if Santulli and Boeing would have prevented NJA from operating the BBJ (which they tried and failed). Every jet that goes to NJI (or any other subsidiary that Santulli might create) is one less jet that could and should be operated by NJA pilots. Were we wrong to fight for the BBJ to be operated by NJA?

I don't have a dog in this fight but is interesting how one group will try to screw another just to get what they think is theirs. Your scope clause was weak when NJI was formed (your prob. not theirs) I am sure the pilots did not take those jobs in an effort to take "your flying". You are trying to fix your scope problems but why not find a way to fix it without screwing other pilots.

We're not screwing them. They can stay with the planes if they want to. They can remain in their seats if they want to. Yes, the scope clause was weak then and Santulli took advantage of it. Now, if a judge thinks the single carrier petetion applies and is fair, then we will take advantage of it. It's business. We are just playing Santulli's game and using the available rules. If we have no case, then we have no case. Play your "Screw Card" evenly to both sides, not just in favor of Santulli.

What are you willing to give up in negotiations to get better scope? Contract negotiations involves both give and take. Are you willing to give up money? work rules? If you think the courts will just give it to you refer to Mesa / Freedom airlines. Freedom was negotiated away with contract consessions.
I look forward to your reply.

Don't know. We may pass on the single carrier deal for more money. I'm interested to see if there's a counter-offer and what it is. As far as scope, it's worthless if we don't get a significant raise because we would still be one of the lowest paid fractionals. The higher the raise, the more important scope becomes to protect ourselves from being "duplicated". To answer your question, we won't really know what we'll get unless we put the cards on the table and see what the company is willing to give in to. Wouldn't you agree that it would be foolish to not consider playing all of the cards we have in our hand and leave money on the table?