NetJets common carrier

[Grizz]

RJL -

I just got off the phone with one of our MEC members and have some more information on this topic. The lawyer leading the charge on this is Roland Wilder. He's one of the top scope attorneys in the nation and has been working Teamster scope issues for just about forever. I met the man at the IAD roadshow and I can tell you he's the real deal. Anyway, his recommendation is that we've got one of the strongest cases for single carrier status he's ever seen and that we'd be foolish not to pursue it. The airline division agrees and has approved the lawsuit to go forward. I guess they know something that all the naysayers on the board here don't.

 

[Majik]

Griz,

That is great news! Thanks for the update! Amazing the number of things that are getting done now that we have a "New Team" in office.

 

[SeaSpray]

RJL -

I guess they know something that all the naysayers on the board here don't.

I know you guys are a bunch of pricks. The guys in the Gulfstreams did a better job of negotiating their pay and work rules than you did so rather than work to make your outfit better, you just want to steal what they built from them. With your fu(k-your-buddy attitude it's hard to believe you were ever in the military. What did those pilots ever do to you?

The other d!ckhead, bluepost said:

I want all these battles fought now and finished so when this war is over we can all move on together, do our best to heal the wounds, and keep/make NJ the best fractional around. I don't want any lingering issues.

You think that if you screw a pilot out of a job he worked hard for there won't be some "lingering issues?" What you're trying to do is a seat grab, nothing more, don't try to dignify it with any of your "move on together" kum-bay-yah BS. You don't have to "wound" those Gulfstream pilots if you don't want to. But, hey! They had better qualifications than you did and were able to get a better job than you, so screw-em right? Doesn't matter that you're not qualified to do their job. Can't meet the standards - Just lower them. Can't earn the job - just steal it.

"Make NJ the best fractional around," you're going to make it a sh!thole to work in with labor issues between the pilots that will never go away.

You guys are pathetic.

 

[Grizz]

SeaSpray -

The pilots that took the job at NJI should have known to at least look over the Railway Labor Act before taking a position with the non-union arm of a unionized company. Their short sightedness caused their own problems. The law is the law. I didn't write it but since it'll be used against us by NetJets at every opportunity, you're dam_ned straight we're going to use it when it's to our benefit. Seems like you've got a lot of anger on this issue for someone that supposedly doesn't have a dog in this fight.

 

[gunfyter]

"The needs of the Many, outweigh the needs of the Few...."

"...Fear is the path of the dark side. Fear leads to anger. anger leads to hate. hate leads to suffering... I sense much fear in you...."

 

[Majik]

Seaspray - The opposite side of your argument would be that the NJI guys took those jobs to support Santulli's union-busting tactics against the NJA pilots. I guess you would then say, "What a bunch of pricks those NJI guys are, to help Santulli try to stick it to those union pilots and take advantage of their lack of a scope clause." What are you going to come up with to rationalize that?

So the original scope clause was weak or non-existent. Shame on the initial union leadership for not covering all of the potential loopholes. Santulli and the NJI pilots exploited this weakness to their advantage. Now that the NJA guys are thinking about filing for Single Carrier Status, you think we are a bunch of pricks? Ever try to be objective and look at something from both sides?

Do I expect the NJI pilots to be initially happy about this. Hell no. Will they still have their jobs? Hell yes. Will they get to remain in their aircraft? Most likely. They may even get a pay raise. They may even like having a defined set of work rules and the protections they allow in case one of hundreds of management personalities ever try to slam dunk them for some perceived violation or petty disagreement.

I came to NJA with zero union experience and some pretty strong "anti-union" sentiments. I was wrong. Nothing's perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better when it's FAIR. I don't blame you for not understanding what you have never experienced. I'm a perfect example of that.

 

[SeaSpray]

SeaSpray -

The pilots that took the job at NJI should have known to at least look over the Railway Labor Act before taking a position with the non-union arm of a unionized company.

Maybe you guys took a job at a non-union shop - from what I've read here you're the only union company at NetJets. Oh, wait - are you going after NJM next or do they not have anything you want to fly?

Seems like you've got a lot of anger on this issue for someone that supposedly doesn't have a dog in this fight.

Check my IP - I'm deployed. Everything I know about this stuff I got from reading your posts and guys like gunfyter, majik and bluepile on the union side and pilots like TCA and G4 for the Gulfstream side.

However, I'd like to find a good job when I get out of the military and it looks like you're sh!tting in the waterhole at this one so there'll be one less place to look.

Do I expect the NJI pilots to be initially happy about this. Hell no. Will they still have their jobs? Hell yes. Will they get to remain in their aircraft? Most likely. They may even get a pay raise. They may even like having a defined set of work rules and the protections they allow in case one of hundreds of management personalities ever try to slam dunk them for some perceived violation or petty disagreement.

Seems to me that the NJI guys don't want anything to do with your union or it's "protection" (sounds like something you'd buy from the Mob so your business doesn't accidently burn down).

 

[gunfyter]

However, I'd like to find a good job when I get out of the military and it looks like you're sh!tting in the waterhole at this one so there'll be one less place to look.

Get in line behind a couple thousand folks who got here first.

 

[Muddauber]

You missed the point, Guns. SeaSpray said he doesn't want to work at Netjets unless you knock-off the union thug stuff.

Muddy

 

[gunfyter]

Oh I got it. I just don't care.

 

[Grizz]

Maybe you guys took a job at a non-union shop - from what I've read here you're the only union company at NetJets.

The mechanics and flight attendents are union also. 2000 NJA pilots versus less than 300 NJI. Also, NJI was formed after there was union on property. I'm pretty sure we're a union shop. Might want to do a bit more reading before you spout off again popeye...it'll make you look a tad bit less foolish.

 

[Grizz]

Well Mudd, we're really not too concerned about what he wants or doesn't want. We've got 2000 pilots in our union to protect. Those are the guys we're concerned about making happy.

 

[Majik]

Seems to me that the NJI guys don't want anything to do with your union or it's "protection" (sounds like something you'd buy from the Mob so your business doesn't accidently burn down).

They probably don't. Nobody likes change, regardless of the potential outcome. The courts may rule that they don't have a choice.

When I was a pilot in the military the best jobs within a unit were not always given out based soley on merit. Most of them were given out to the politicians and butt-kissers. I wanted to get the good assignments so I became a dam n good politician and butt-kisser. I didn't like it but it was a necessary evil if I didn't want to be relegated to supply or some other undesirable position.

You've either learned to deal with the taste of your superior officers' buttocks or your extra duties include the supply room or something similar. That may be acceptable to you but I prefer a system that exhibits a better system of fairness without having to feel like you are a sell-out. Once you leave the military and are able to experience the advantages of a seniority based system, I think you would probably agree with me. Not something you pay so your business doesn't burn down, but something you pay dues for so that you don't have to go home every day with ass-breath. Until then, stay safe and thanks for your service.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Majik,

It never hurt if your wife socializes with the XOs wife. Or if your Golf game is good enough to get the attention of the CG. Of course marrying the Group Commander's daughter is always a career enhancing move. You wouldn't believe the orders I saw someone get after pulling that off. Did I mention she was ugly?

 

[Majik]

I had taken my CO hunting with my Dad. A pheasant rose up in front of my Dad, he shot and the bird started to fall. My CO shot a split second after my Dad. It was blatantly obvious that my father shot the bird. Both my Dad and I exchanged looks but remained silent when my CO suddenly yelled, "Dang but I just made a great shot, huh?" My Dad was prior military, knew how the game was played and wanted his son to stay out of the supply room too.

Just one of hundreds of examples. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed my time in Uncle Sam's Army. I was able to discover early the price I had to pay to play the game. That's not one of the parts I miss.

 

[Grizz]

Majik,

I never figured that kinda crap out. Must have been the reason I retired as a Captain. Then again, it could have been all those years I had as a enlisted guy. There were a lot of times that being a mustang was a good thing.

I remember my last OER prior to turning in my retirement paperwork. My rater was pissed off because I was retiring and not taking a staff tour and shooting for Major. He threatened to mark me down on the OER. I looked at him and told him point blank that the only way he could hurt me with that OER was to roll it up real tight and poke me in the eye with it. I thought the dude had no sense of humor but he actually laughed when I said that.

One of the things I really miss about the military was that generally you knew the rules and everyone typically followed them. I guess I was naive enough to assume that NetJets would follow the same example being born of a heavy military background. Boy was I ever mistaken. Now, I'm just glad we have a union so we can force the issue if need be.

 

[SeaSpray]

They probably don't. Nobody likes change, regardless of the potential outcome. The courts may rule that they don't have a choice.

When I was a pilot in the military the best jobs within a unit were not always given out based soley on merit. Most of them were given out to the politicians and butt-kissers. I wanted to get the good assignments so I became a dam n good politician and butt-kisser. I didn't like it but it was a necessary evil if I didn't want to be relegated to supply or some other undesirable position.

You've either learned to deal with the taste of your superior officers' buttocks or your extra duties include the supply room or something similar. That may be acceptable to you but I prefer a system that exhibits a better system of fairness without having to feel like you are a sell-out. Once you leave the military and are able to experience the advantages of a seniority based system, I think you would probably agree with me. Not something you pay so your business doesn't burn down, but something you pay dues for so that you don't have to go home every day with ass-breath. Until then, stay safe and thanks for your service.

Too bad you had such a sorry experience in the military, chief. I don't think it's typical though and it sure doesn't reflect what I've seen in the service. I've seen leadership, ability, bravery and hard work rewarded with command, cockpits, below-the-zone promotions, awards, assignments and schools.

I don't see how a system based on seniority rather than ability can be better than one that recognizes it when you're busting your ass! But I don't plan on getting out until after I see the next list. So, I won't be looking for a job for a while and everything can change by then - just like it did for the majors.

 

[Majik]

I know exactly what you mean Grizz. I have plenty of friends that did not know how or refused to play the games. It was always nice to have friends like that in supply so I could use that friendship to score some extra stuff when I needed it. I became good at playing the game. It was sad to see them holed up in their support jobs, wishing they were able to fly the line. Some even looked down on me for being such a butt-kisser but hey, thems wuz the rules and if you wanted to be on the starting team, and I did, then that's what you had to do.

Glad I don't have to work under the so-called "merit system" anymore. I had no golf game and my lips were starting to lose their pucker. Plus, my breath was starting to build up an immunity to Industrial Strength Listerine.

 

[El Chupacabra]

I know some don't agree with me but I would be willing to trade for FFH and Return of All Hostages.

 

[Majik]

Too bad you had such a sorry experience in the military, chief. I don't think it's typical though and it sure doesn't reflect what I've seen in the service. I've seen leadership, ability, bravery and hard work rewarded with command, cockpits, below-the-zone promotions, awards, assignments and schools.

I don't see how a system based on seniority rather than ability can be better than one that recognizes it when you're busting your ass! But I don't plan on getting out until after I see the next list. So, I won't be looking for a job for a while and everything can change by then - just like it did for the majors.

Wrong! I had a great experience in the military. If I could have remained in the cockpit I would have chosen to stay longer.

Glad to hear that all commands and choice assignments in your military are consistently being awarded soley on merit. I got out in 92 and, for the most part, that wasn't how things were done in my units. Politics, friendships and other things seemed to play a big part in deciding who got what, and the meritorious and deserving were not always the winners.

Let me give you an example. Let's say one person in Columbus decides who gets the next upgrade in the BBJ. He has to chose from 2000 pilots that live in 25 cities and may only get to Columbus once a year. Think he knows all of these pilots by name? Think he knows who's been naughty or nice? No, you are expecting the impossible from that individual. He's going to go with the guy that's made his presence known and touts his contributions (real or exaggerated) to the big decision maker. The guy that "plays the game" and not the "most deserving" will get the prize.

Like I said, wait til you are able to experience something this size before you solidify your judgement. Imagine a Commander with 2000 pilots, some of which he will never meet, trying to decide which ones get selected for promotion and which ones will be passed over.

Ask yourself why airlines use a seniority based system.