Netjets Casino employees

[dsptchrnja]

Shows your true feelings.

Feelings have nothing to do with it. It is an observation.

Just goes to show you still don't understand about what happened in negotiations. Nobody walked away from anything.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, you must have read the post too fast - the comment had nothing to do with negotiations, you need to read it again to figure out who we are talking about.

Here's a question if you're such a long term employee did you feel the same way about the mechanics strike? Or did you just not tell them because you had to see them everyday?

You apparently don't know my job very well. I see and talk to pilots everyday. The only time I see a Mx guy is walking by the smoke shack on my way into work. But I'll entertain your question anyway.

I had no feelings towards the MX strike - I don't even remember that it affected the company the same way. If you remember there were no mechs threatening to close down the company if they didn't get their way or passing out propaganda at company meetings. It simply wasn't a concern to the average flight center employee. I was relatively new then and was just trying to figure out my job. I'm sure if I knew a mech I would have wished him or her success in getting more pay assuming they were underpaid, just like I support you guys. But I probably wouldn't have taken it too well if he called me names or threatened my job security verbally. Don't know, it didn't happen that way. It's comparing apples to oranges.

 

[abenaki]

Dispatcher--

First, thanks for your reasonable response to my posts. My apologies for missing your point about "sticking to flying jets".....sometimes the written word is less than clear in meaning and how we "say it in our heads" is not always how someone "hears it when they read it".

Just a couple of points:

You said, "The real issue is how much, and to what destructive end you are willing to go to get it".

There is no desire on the part of the union to do anything destructive to you, any employeee of NJA or the company. What I'm not sure that you understand is that the provisions of the RLA FORCE a union to take it to a strike if a company becomes entrenched in negotiations because there is NO OTHER COURSE OF ACTION to be taken under the those provisions.

It's that simple. Belive me, having been through a strike, I have no desire to stomach another, but if there was a way to get the company to offer us an agreement that wasn't REGRESSIVE as the last two have been, then I would be all for it. Unfortunately, there isn't.

You place ALL the responsibility on the union. How about the company? They can easily avert a strike by offering us what they ALREADY give to other parts of the company.....i.e. Fly from home, 7/7 schedules across the board, pay that is at least REASONABLY commensurate with the rest of the industry instead of about half of what others make. Recently, there was a job posting for a position at EJM offering just those things but somehow, they don't want to offer them to us. If they did, this thing could be over in less than a week.

"Unions aren't needed at Netjets. The union is only a threat to the comany's welfar - and possibly your career. They were meant for a time when workers needed to be protected from unhealthy workplaces and irresponsible employers. Seriously, what have they done for you other than Pi$$ off RTS?"

OK, this is a matter of opinion. The union is NOT a threat to the welfare of NJA. How is this possible? Because we want what others already have at this company? Frankly, without the efforts of the union, NJA WOULD be more unhealthy than it already is. The safety initiatives put forth by the safety committee are proof of that. 14 hour days have been proven to be UNSAFE yet NJA continues the practice each and every day offering a "solution" that if get two 14 hour days in a row, you get a whopping 12 hours the next night. This flies in the face of the studies on sleep/rest and crew fatigue done by NASA and the accident findings published by the FAA. As the joke here goes, "Safety is Number 1 at Net Jets unless it interferes with scheduling".

So, we are not supposed to tick off RTS? Are you aware of the seat-lock/gateway fisaco where RTS found a loophole in the agreement the company NEEDED where he could and did renig on his part of the deal? His actions during that whole thing did massive irreparable damage to the trust between the parties.

RTS has more money than he could ever spend. And good for him. I have no issue with that. But you have to ask yourself with all that money, why does he continue to work when he could sit his "Celine House" ($20,000,000, BTW) and enjoy life? Because it's a game to him. And we are pawns to be used, manipulated and sacrificed if it furthers his ends.

"So far, your union is seeing to it that they are the ones that can't have good-faith negotiations and I doubt the mediator is impressed."

How do you know this? What facts do you have to back this up? Are you party to the negotiations? Are you aware of the completely regressive contract proposals the company has put forth? Would YOU like to take a decrease in YOUR pay and benefits because Net Jets is crying "poor" while they purchase hangars, establish other areas of operation and charge YOUR portion of the company outrageous sums for a quart of oil?

The last proposal put forth was nothing short of a slap in the face to every pilot at this company and you're telling me that the union is not bargaining in good faith? We've worked at this process for years and years with the company openly ADMITTING that they have intentionally delayed the process. The longer they delay, the more money they save. It's very simple. You can discount what is going on and say that is neither here nor there for you, but the facts remain.


"Waiting and worrying about the next fat check is making you guys miserable".....

Come on, Dispatcher...we've been waiting for YEARS. The value of our checks has DECREASED since the last agreement was signed so many years ago....Adjusted for inflation, this group is making FAR less than it did when the last CBA was signed. Yet, at the same time, NJA has increased the monthly management fees by 3.75% a year all the while telling the owners that was going towards the "pilots pay" when in reality, we haven't seen a nickle of it.

We have the right to be frsutrated.

By the way. Are you familiar with the pay tables? Are you aware that many of our first year pilots qualify for FOOD STAMPS? Why wouldn't we be frustrated when we see monies wasted each and every day?

more later.

 

[Lrjet55]

Why do we spend so much time trying to explain our side of the story to a dispatcher. Its clear this individual does not see issues as we do and never will. I personaly would encourage all you to focus your efforts elsewhere. Funny enough prior to SU requesting we not have individual discussions with management about 10 of us had a discussion with Boisture in Dallas where we explained what dispatch did do as opposed to what they should do and his comment was if that was the case then the company should reconsider having dispatch at all.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[abenaki]

Lrjet55--Actually, a very good question....

For me, it involves trying to offer other perceptions than that which the company is feeding the employess at the Casino.

Dispatcher characterized some of what the union put out as "propaganda" but I don't remember him acknowledging that what the company is putting out as propaganda itself. Somehow, what management puts out is perceived as the one and only truth by many, and what 2000 pilots put out is perceived as "propaganda". He and others perceive the union as somewhat less than scrupulous when that union is actually you, me and a about 2000 other people. The union is US. They don't seem to grasp that.

I would, in a reasonable manner, like to offer some facts that may at least lead to some questioning in the mind of Dispatcher and others that maybe, just maybe, the only thing the company cares about is money and that will employ any and all tactics to further that sole issue.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Dispatcher--
>>>
There is no desire on the part of the union to do anything destructive to you, any employeee of NJA or the company. What I'm not sure that you understand is that the provisions of the RLA FORCE a union to take it to a strike if a company becomes entrenched in negotiations because there is NO OTHER COURSE OF ACTION to be taken under the those provisions.

I believe you, I do. But don't expect me to like it, just as you don't like it (for different reasons of course). And I will never understand how you can come to the point where there is no other course of action. Even if you have to settle for what they are offering for the sake of your families seems to be a better course of action to me than going on strike in the slim hope that that will convince the company to actually give in. I have yet to hear a crewmember say they think that will actually work - so it appears to be punitive, rather than hopeful.

You place ALL the responsibility on the union. How about the company? They can easily avert a strike by offering us what they ALREADY give to other parts of the company.....i.e. Fly from home, 7/7 schedules across the board, pay that is at least REASONABLY commensurate with the rest of the industry instead of about half of what others make. Recently, there was a job posting for a position at EJM offering just those things but somehow, they don't want to offer them to us. If they did, this thing could be over in less than a week.

You are making my point that the union may be the problem - considering that's the only difference. If there was no union perhaps you would get paid along the same lines as EJM, NJI.

OK, as a reasonable person, I can see that even if that was the case, it shouldn't matter to the company and should pay you along those same lines anyway. But if that's the game they are playing (taking advantage of bargaining employees), wrong or not, my point is the same - get rid of the union and things might get better. Again, this is pure speculation. And I don't realistically expect that you would venture down that road to find out. But who knows what twists and turns are going to happen over the next year? I personally wouldn't be surprised if we find out somehow - what I do believe - is that you wouldn't be any worse off - that's for sure.

This flies in the face of the studies on sleep/rest and crew fatigue done by NASA and the accident findings published by the FAA. As the joke here goes, "Safety is Number 1 at Net Jets unless it interferes with scheduling".

Funny, and understandable. But you know as well as I it is your responsibility to say when your too tired. In my seven years here I have yet to see one pilot denied, or even criticized because he was too fatigued to finish his line. In my book, I respect you more because I know you know your limits. That's what safety is all about.

RTS has more money than he could ever spend. And good for him. I have no issue with that. But you have to ask yourself with all that money, why does he continue to work when he could sit his "Celine House" ($20,000,000, BTW) and enjoy life? Because it's a game to him. And we are pawns to be used, manipulated and sacrificed if it furthers his ends.

If your statement is true, than RTS would have to agree with you. Doubtful. And not even remotely persuasive to me when you judge the motives of someone you probably have never spoken to on the issue.

How do you know this? What facts do you have to back this up? Are you party to the negotiations? Are you aware of the completely regressive contract proposals the company has put forth? Would YOU like to take a decrease in YOUR pay and benefits because Net Jets is crying "poor" while they purchase hangars, establish other areas of operation and charge YOUR portion of the company outrageous sums for a quart of oil?

Again, not the issue (with me) for reasons I've stated here and in other posts.

The last proposal put forth was nothing short of a slap in the face to every pilot at this company and you're telling me that the union is not bargaining in good faith? We've worked at this process for years and years with the company openly ADMITTING that they have intentionally delayed the process.

Quote please...

Come on, Dispatcher...we've been waiting for YEARS. The value of our checks has DECREASED since the last agreement was signed so many years ago....Adjusted for inflation, this group is making FAR less than it did when the last CBA was signed. Yet, at the same time, NJA has increased the monthly management fees by 3.75% a year all the while telling the owners that was going towards the "pilots pay" when in reality, we haven't seen a nickle of it.

We have the right to be frsutrated.

You are still making this an issue with me yet I have said repeatedly I would like to see the company increase your pay. I understand your frustration.

By the way. Are you familiar with the pay tables? Are you aware that many of our first year pilots qualify for FOOD STAMPS?

You are talking to someone who started at this company making 27K. I made 18K in the military before that. By looking at your pay tables I have no hope of making what you guys make long term under the current contract. So why do guys keep bringing this up to me as if you were the last poor people on mother earth? Even at 35K, you are among the top 5% most wealthy people on the planet. So comparisons are only a matter of who you want to be compared to. People making double your pay are discontented and sometimes miserable because they compare themselves to people making twice their pay. Studies show that once all your basic needs are met, food, shelter, clothing, substancial increase in incomes do not yield increases in happiness. In fact it has been shown that lottery winners are not only no more happy 1-2 years later after they get paid, but in most cases, less happy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make the point here that you should just bend over and take whatever it is they offer, like the rest of us non-bargaining folk. Just fodder for the discussion. However, life with contentment is great gain.

Stay safe

 

[Starman]

These guys are no more dispatchers for netjets than I am Pope. They are here to spread doubt and fear among the pilots. They are here to stir the pot and create anger between different employee groups. Forget about them - they aren't worth your time.

Take the time to read Confessions of a Union Buster and you'll start to see right through all the trash being posted by dsptchrNJA, FAcFriend, I-R-DXR, NJACrewservicer, casino wife, and others. Anonymous posts on this board are a perfect way for one or two people contracted by NJA to sew the seeds of doubt. Recognize them for what they are and move on.

 

[dsptchrnja]

These guys are no more dispatchers for netjets than I am Pope. They are here to spread doubt and fear among the pilots. They are here to stir the pot and create anger between different employee groups. Forget about them - they aren't worth your time.

Take the time to read Confessions of a Union Buster and you'll start to see right through all the trash being posted by dsptchrNJA, FAcFriend, I-R-DXR, NJACrewservicer, casino wife, and others. Anonymous posts on this board are a perfect way for one or two people contracted by NJA to sew the seeds of doubt. Recognize them for what they are and move on.

Pope, let me guess... you don't believe the U.S. ever landed on the moon, do you?

If you can't handle debating the real issues of NJA and its pilots than you should probably stay off the public boards.

 

[Fracster]

dsptchrnja


I can name over 50 people in the past 2 years who have been disciplined for calling in tired. Once again your company proganda is blinding you.

You say you haven't seen anyone being brought in? That is because you are at your work station and do not see what goes on behind the scenes. Just recently there was a X ACP, PM or what ever they are called who was keeping a list of pilots who were calling in tired.
He was forced by Hart to remove the list and we are awaiting discpline.

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt but come on man, think about some of the stuff you post.
The fact that we are union, since 1964 which means we had nothing to do with it, should not make any difference in our pay. Why would you even think otherwise.

You say we shouldn't go on strike because we should be happy with what the company offers and for the sake of our families?
We are using a strike as an option for that very reason. We are doing all this work for our families. We are asking for higher wages so we can send our kids to better schools and colleges, so our wife/husbands can stay home if he/she chooses to raise the children, so we can afford to live in a better neighborhoods with better schools.
You say I should just accept what NJA is offering for my families sake? Your a fooking idiot!
We dont want to go on strike. We dont want to be without a pay check. We dont want to cause irreperable damage to NJA(well the union doesnt, I don't care). NJA pays all is subsidiaries more money than us but because we have a union we aren't worth as much. I have never heard such an over inflated argument.

I cannot fault you for championing mediocracy. You cannot be expected to comprehend the plight of those striving for a better life and career. We provide a service, and a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good one at that, and we are clearly not appreciated. We make the same or less than a regional airline pilot. You make more that most of the pilots. Do you think you are worth more than most of the pilots? I dont think so and I can guarantee 2000 other pilots feel the same way.

The Local 284 was corrupt and stems back to Dave Vermuelen and his cronies. The current corporate culture does not want to change. The union changed and wants the company to do the same. I guarantee it will.

 

[ghostrider64]

DispatcherNJA....

Your arrogance is unbelievable....You say flying Jets is all we are needed for....

I'll let you in on a little secret that is obviously long lost in the casino...Before YOU had a job and while the question of, if EXECUTIVE JET AVIATION was going to succeed or not...We the pilots did everything you do today...The only difference is we did it in some little FBO in the middle of no where...then we made sure that everything including the catering was correct...then when it wasn't we ordered borrowed cars etc...to get the right stuff....We the pilots have done everything you dispatchers are doing now...And the kicker is most of us Pilots have been doing it since you were in kindergarden....

So please look at yourself in the mirror and realize the reason YOU have a job is because we pilots did everything you are doing today at a time when EXECUTIVE JET AVIATION could not afford to pay for dispatchers....

So do your job....Lose the sarcasm when we call in to ask for a rerelease and respect the FACT that these pilots who as you say are only needed to fly...while you head home and hug your kids and sleep with your SO...have and can do EVERYTHING you have done and more all while we miss BDays, anniversaries, weddings and unfortunately we don't seem to miss out on the divorces...

Maybe you should respect what we have given up for you to have a JOB and appreciate that a bit more....

 

[Fracster]

Like I said, dispatch at NJA is a waste of time and money. They do very little that helps the pilot group and Boisture agrees.

 

[FAcFriend]

ghost- I appreciate your hostility and openness.

First- "EJA started at a very bad time in aviation if you were a pilot. You were extremely lucky to have a jet job. The only way to get hired was if you knew someone, worked for free, or if you paid for your own training. The pay was absolutely horrible but you were happy to just be flying" This is a quote from one your union guys.

So the guys who came early - came for the same reason guys came late- to have a job doing what they love- flying planes.

Fractional business was built on a model that had low pilot wages because pilot wages were low- too many pilots not enough jobs-

Mngt wants to resolve this issue as well as the union does. this is why mngt paid your MEC chair to attend the negotiation meetings. Taking him off the line to be a part of your negotiation team is not part of your contract (as was stated here previously) but part of the TA that was voted down.

Remember guys, this is a 3 year contract- last year you could have pocketed signing bonuses, pay raises AND started planning strategy for your next contract, so next time it doesnt take so long. All without mentioning scabs, strikes etc.

At this rate it will take at least one if not two years from the date of the voted down TA, to either strike or resolve.

 

[transpac]

dsptchrnja


I can name over 50 people in the past 2 years who have been disciplined for calling in tired. Once again your company proganda is blinding you.

Don't forget the guy who was fired. (And reinstated, thanks to the union).

 

[abenaki]

Fac Friend--

The TA last year contained "raises" that did not even equal adjustments for inflation over the last contract. It was a regressive offer that the company would have LOVED for us to sign because it was cheaper in today's dollars than the last contract.

The "signing bonuses" were minimal at best. The bonuses did not even begin to cover the lost wages over the last three years.

The language in the contract eliminated much of the OT pay and flex schedule benefits so that many pilots would have taken a pay CUT under that TA. Pilots figured to take a $5k to $10k CUT in their pay with that TA.

There is a reason why 82% of the pilots voted that contract down. Most agree that the current contract is better than the one that was offered.

So, please, don't tell me or my group what we should have done.

 

[FAcFriend]

abenaki

Thanks for the insight. I am surprised the teamsters negotiators recommended a bad contract to you.

But you have peaked my curiosity and I will go back do more research.

Thanks again

 

[abenaki]

"get rid of the union and things might get better"

Why, in heaven's name, would we want to get rid of the union? And TRUST a company that has proven time and time again that they are not trustworthy? The number of contract violations filed this year alone demonstrates their lack of integrity.

And by the way, you did not respond to Gateway/Seatlock fiasco where RTS made short-term gain for himself at the expense of the trust of the union. He will never be trusted by this union because of that tactical error.

 

[Live4flyng]

Wrong!

Mngt wants to resolve this issue as well as the union does. this is why mngt paid your MEC chair to attend the negotiation meetings. Taking him off the line to be a part of your negotiation team is not part of your contract (as was stated here previously) but part of the TA that was voted down.

Taking him off the line is part of our contract in the form of an LOA.

 

[Fracster]

Thanks for the insight. I am surprised the teamsters negotiators recommended a bad contract to you.

But you have peaked my curiosity and I will go back do more research.

You have no idea how bad it really was. Lets forget about how the contract was and focus on the old MEC and Teamsters.

We had a lawyer with NO AVITAION BACKGROUND. He had worked on one LOU prior to our contract.

The MEC used to go out to dinner with the president after meetings. Talk about an ethics viloation.
The MEC went on a 2 week road show to scare pilots into voting for the contract. They actually had the gaul to say NJA was broke and this was the best we would get. When management heard the stories they were telling they were actually repimanded.
One MEC member took off two weeks during mediated negotiations to get his SWA type rating. Thankfully he did not get the job.
The local 284 provided finance people who didnt even ask the company for the proper financial statements. They took the companies word on everything. The current MEC has requested said books and the company refuses to provide them.
I can go on and on and on about how botched the whole negotiation process was prior.

My absolute favorite and factual story goes as folows:

Last year in at company recurrent BB stated, in the middle of class, that our union was doing a great job for us and that we should be proud. Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

One of the former MEC members was in that class and had the balls to turn around and smugly smile at the class.

The former MEC was a complete joke. They created one heck of a hole and fight for the current MEC.

FacFriend, feel free to ask any question. We will all be happy to give you factual information with proof. We certainly do not want to be accused of spreading half truths. Thats the companies job.

 

[abenaki]

Frac Friend--

That our previous MEC actually recommended the proposed TA was a shock to most of this pilot group. Interestingly enough, the bulk of the raises in the TA just happened to focus on the seniorit/equipment level of the members of the MEC.

Their actions in trying to force the TA down the membership's throat led many to wonder whether or not they were somehow being "compensated" for their efforts. Their behavior at the "roadshows" was confrontational, condescending threatening and downright bizarre for a group that supposedly had the best interests of their group at heart. It was some strange.

Now to be fair, there was never any proof that they were somehow paid off, but the doubt lingers.

 

[MalteseX]

Well Said

These guys are no more dispatchers for netjets than I am Pope. They are here to spread doubt and fear among the pilots. They are here to stir the pot and create anger between different employee groups. Forget about them - they aren't worth your time.

Take the time to read Confessions of a Union Buster and you'll start to see right through all the trash being posted by dsptchrNJA, FAcFriend, I-R-DXR, NJACrewservicer, casino wife, and others. Anonymous posts on this board are a perfect way for one or two people contracted by NJA to sew the seeds of doubt. Recognize them for what they are and move on.

Well said, Starman. This was pretty obvious to me from the beginning. It's amazing that the list screennames above just about covers all the non-pilot jobs in the Netjets "family" (Dispatchers, Flight Managers, Wives, Crew Services, Owners, etc). If MX were not union, there would be a MX guy on here ripping your pilots as well. By far, most guys working there support your pilots.

 

[Hogprint]

Me too. But who walked away from who?

I'm willing to bet from your point of view it was us....

From our perspective it has been the company....

Therein lies the dilemma!