NetJets' Captains need to get over themselves!

[Mike Jenvey]

I think that a few of you need to take your blood pressure medication! Not sure if there is anything to take for some of the “willy waving” that is going on (that’s d*ck waving in the UK to USA translation! ) but a few posters have some sensible & logical points – in favour of the FOs.

As I have said before, your option of the FO operating from the LHS on a ferry sector (captain’s discretion) is a super deal, I wish we could do the same over here.

However, I think there have been some valid points raised about standards & “variable” captain’s discretion – the FO has a rating, let them use it. For example, for me on a typical tour, I would establish if the FO was very recently out of line training (IOE?) or listed as “low time” on type. If either of these factors were valid, I would certainly look at the first day of tour & probably nominate the legs for the FO. This might typically be me operating the relevant pax leg(s) so I can observe the FO operating a ferry leg – or if it was a 3 sector day, e.g. ferry – revenue – ferry, then the FO would get both ferry sectors. Then I would try to plan the rest of the tour as alternating legs, varying this if there were FOM constraints (special airport, short runway, etc), where it would be mandatory for the captain to operate. I would also amend the order of operating if I could let the FO operate (my judgement of their ability) into an airport that they hadn’t been to before.

Now, for an experienced FO (not straight from IOE or low time), when meeting up at the FBO, I would ask them which sector(s) they wanted to operate - & then alternate between legs, carrying this on into subsequent days. Again, this would be subject to FOM constraints, but I wouldn’t worry about who flew pax or ferry legs. If it was a 3 sector day, & the FO didn’t have the good sense to say that they would do the first (& therefore the 3rd!), I would be very surprised! As also previously mentioned, if NJE, you are the “operating” pilot for the sector, then the other pilot will meet the pax. If you alternate, or vary the order to fit the circumstances, then both pilots share the cockpit set-up & meeting the pax. We obviously have different languages over in Europe (bit like a Texan versus someone from New Jersey? :laugh: ) so it makes very good sense for a German pilot to meet German-speaking pax, so that would be a sensible option to plan the sectors accordingly for the best customer experience.

So, whilst in NJE we don’t have the luxury of seat swapping between captain & FO, if you not are flying with an FO who doesn’t have the ink still drying on his type rating, then surely the captains are duty-bound to alternate pax/ferry sectors – heck, if it means sometimes giving the FOs more sectors than the captains so that they can utilise your LHS option, then so what??

 

[realityman]

Mike, that's actually pretty close to how we do it here (as far as flying pax legs, not about the language thing). The vast majority of our captains will simply alternate legs. We have a few who don't, but they really are few and far between.

Believe it or not, we even have a few F/O's who won't fly pax legs, simply because they don't want to do it from the right seat. That's their prerogative. Again, few and far between though.

Re-read Porter's posts. Really think about what he's saying, what he's complaining about, and how he's presenting himself. I think it'll become clear who is doing the most 'willy waving'.

The exaggerations are the best. Like I said, I'm an IOE instructor. There's no passing IOE with 'flying colors'. Every single person, when finished with IOE, will have an "S" under each task to be completed. That's it. No A++, or B- or gold star or anything like that. Maybe his IOE instructor wrote some nice things about his performance in the comments section. Big deal. We all do that when they do things right.

Look at his claim of being in the top 20 or 30%. Say what? How does he know that the people who got turned down in the class before him weren't better than him? Maybe he was just lucky in who he got interviewed with. There's no objective way to determine if he's in the top 30%, or the bottom 5% when it comes to new hires. In fact, there's no way to compare him to all the folks that came before him and were turned down. It depended on our needs at the time of hiring. You don't think his claims are just a bit ego-driven?

I can truly sympathize with him if he isn't doing any flying with pax. But 5 months of captains that haven't let him fly a single pax leg? I'm thinking that's either a bit of a stretch, or maybe he has some deficiencies in his flying he just won't admit to.

The tone of his posts points a maturity level of somewhere in the range of a 15-year-old. Gold seal instructor? Who cares? What relevance does that have? We're not asking him to teach anyone to fly. In fact, just the opposite. As a newhire, he might actually learn a lot (what to do and what NOT to do) if he'd let go of the ego and accept that our captains our experienced pilots, probably with credentials more impressive than his.

He says he wants a fix to this problem, but he's posting his complaints in the place where it's least likely to make any difference. He's been told how and where to handle it appropriately. Whether he's doing it remains to be seen.

Who is he to test our pilots, which is what he's doing by letting things go with his current captain to see if he'll be allowed to fly pax? He says his captain this tour is a nice guy, so what's the problem with talking it over with him?

Too many things point to our captains NOT being the problem.

 

[glasspilot]

Mr. Jenvey,

I reject your view point wholly as it the perspective an Englishmen. Your country is backward and therefore no reasonable opinion could be expected to come forth. Your horse races are even run in a clockwise direction, thus proving how backward English thinking is.

As further proof, here is the classic 1996 memorandum from your countries leading airline, British Airways:


There appears to be some confusion over the new pilot role titles. This notice will hopefully clear up any misunderstandings.

The titles P1, P2 and Co-Pilot will now cease to have any meaning, within the Operations Manual. They are to be replaced by Handling Pilot, Non-Handling Pilot, Non-Handling Landing Pilot, Handling Non-Landing Pilot and Non-Handling Non-Landing Pilot.

The Landing Pilot is initially the Handling Pilot and will handle the take-off and landing except in role reversal when he is the Non-Handling Pilot for taxi until the Handling Non-Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Landing Pilot at 80 knots.

The Non-Landing (Non-Handling, since the Landing Pilot is handling) Pilot reads the checklist to the Handling Pilot until after the Before Descent Checklist completion. Then the Handling Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Non- Handling Non-Landing Pilot who then becomes the Handling Non-Landing Pilot.

The Landing Pilot is the Non-Handling Pilot until the "Decision Altitude" call, when the Handling Non-Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Non-Handling Landing Pilot, unless the latter calls "Go Around", in which case the Handling Non-Landing Pilot continues handling and the Non-Handling Landing Pilot continues non-handling until the next call of "Land" or "Go Around", as appropriate.

In view of the recent confusion over these rules, it was deemed necessary to restate them clearly.




PS, I married a Brit.

 

[brokeflyer]

I bet porter dont even work here.....we all got had "had" by this thread.....lol

 

[Mike Jenvey]

<<<< I reject your view point wholly as it the perspective an Englishmen. Your country is backward and therefore no reasonable opinion could be expected to come forth. Your horse races are even run in a clockwise direction, thus proving how backward English thinking is.>>>>

Oomph - unfair!! You'll hit me with the Boston Tea Party next......

Still, at least we drive on the proper side of the road & have cars that don't use a super-tanker's load of fuel to get the parking lot at the Mall! And before you retaliate, note that Mr Ford's first decent car had the steering wheel in the middle!!

RM - all noted, but I was also basing my viewpoint on some of the less subtle & informed replies! Maybe I got hooked by the trolls!!

 

[B727FA]

As a newhire, he might actually learn a lot (what to do and what NOT to do) if he'd let go of the ego and accept that our captains our experienced pilots, probably with credentials more impressive than his.

The difference, though, is that the CA's wouldn't brag about it. I've been amazed at the humility of everyone here...Mr G, (VP Training/Standards) wrote a personal note to me to apologize for not being there to meet me on my first day of Indoc. I am in awe!

 

[Cloudroller]

have you told them your a gold seal CFI?

 

[av8trinabarrel]

I bet porter dont even work here.....we all got had "had" by this thread.....lol

No sheet..being one of those guys thats been here less than a year, I find porter too be a total maroon. I have busted my rear to show my CA's that I am no porter type. Work hard, have a good attitude and show our pax the best customer service. Expect nothing and you wont be disappointed..if you do indeed work here!

 

[FoxJet]

You're afraid to discuss this on the union web site because you're on probation? You openly admit you have not discussed this with these stuck up captains, but bitch about internal issues on a public forum? Your decision making and judgement are clearly lacking. Grow up.

Exactly!

BTW I'm in my 3rd year at NJ and have alternated every leg since IOE.

 

[superfly]

This is old news

Varries fleet to fleet pilot to pilot. Small planes means more flying for FO's because less ego and seniority. In the old days Cappy flew the people because that's what ma wanted. Then there was some good weather exceptions added. Now it's up to cappy with little hand holding. Many old timers have a tough time with changing, have probably never read the FOM.

I think the none flying pilot is more important job. However, I alternate ever leg unless the FO wants to mix it up to sit in the left seat.

Who really cares who flies, we are all highly trained.

Pay me to sit in the hotel to reduce my stress!