NetJets' Captains need to get over themselves!

[172driver]

As someone who does sit in the right seat at NJA, I couldn't care less which seat I sit in during a check ride. I can't believe it's all that big of a deal. Are you telling me you can't accomplish the same maneuvers from either seat? Not sure of the other fleets, but you have to be in the left seat to be able to deal with any start malfunctions. So, sit in the left seat and do your check ride. If you aren't competent enough to get it done, then go do something else.

As I said, it's not a huge deal, it's not unsafe, but it's not as safe or effective as it could be. I can and do accomplish the same maneuvers in the left seat, but it takes me an hour or so before I get used to the reversal of all the buttons on the yoke, and there are a lot of them in the Beechjet. Also, start malfunctions and taxi can be fully dealt with from the right seat of the 400. It's not about being competent, it's about training how you fly and flying how you train.

 

[glasspilot]

Why does an FO need to taxi on a checkride? They already have the type so the company can still advertise fully typed crews.

Do they also need to be fully current from the left seat? Are there times the company needs two FOs to repo a plane so one needs to be current from the left seat?

 

[G200_PILOT]

Why does an FO need to taxi on a checkride? They already have the type so the company can still advertise fully typed crews.

Do they also need to be fully current from the left seat? Are there times the company needs two FOs to repo a plane so one needs to be current from the left seat?

Ummmmm.... NO!

 

[glasspilot]

That's what I thought, so then...

Why do FO's need to be current from the left seat?

 

[G200_PILOT]

I give up.........

 

[FLYLOW22]

There is no valid argument for not letting an FO fly every other leg, unless your procedural and regulatory guidance calls for it. (Special airport, monitored approach, etc.) When it occurs, a good Captain will make sure that the FO does not get "cheated" out of their flying. (Giving them another leg to make up for the one they lost.)

You might not be a NetJets pilot if you share the above opinion.

Generally, I will absolutely alternate legs. Occasionally, I will take the next leg depending on the circumstances.

ie...

*Coral Reef Club,

*Aspen on a busy and poor weather day,

*Landing at a back-woods short runway airport on a slick and rainy day with gusty winds.

We don't routinely operate to or from anywhere. We do fly to some airports in higher concentrations, but not with regularity (TEB, PBI, MDW, etc.). There is no opportunity for NJ crews to develop "familiarity" at several airports like a 121 pilot can.

Type rating or not, it's safer for a pilot to see someone else operating in challenging airport environments 1st before taking the controls and operating in them personally (IMHO). This isn't a MAN contest. This is a customer service job.

NJ does not sell "minimum certifications" (FAA APPROVED) to our Owners. NetJets sells higher standards to our Owners in the interests of safety and comfort. It's those couple of notches above "legal" that our Owners pay for and receive. It's called "polish" and we love to give it.

And this isn't a "beat up on the SIC" practice. NetJets doesn't release Captains directly to the line following UPG training for just this reason. New PICs fly as a PSIC for a period of months until they develop a solid operational experience base former from experience, not simulation.

Again, this is a company cultural phenomenon based on saefty and comfort... "polish". It's not a "man contest".

 

[o2bflyn]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

 

[say again]

Right now, just put me in a seat, Could care less whether or not I get to manipulate the controls. Unemployment sucks, and so does finding a job.

 

[FrontierFan]

You might not be a NetJets pilot if you share the above opinion.

Generally, I will absolutely alternate legs. Occasionally, I will take the next leg depending on the circumstances.

ie...

*Coral Reef Club,

*Aspen on a busy and poor weather day,

*Landing at a back-woods short runway airport on a slick and rainy day with gusty winds.

We don't routinely operate to or from anywhere. We do fly to some airports in higher concentrations, but not with regularity (TEB, PBI, MDW, etc.). There is no opportunity for NJ crews to develop "familiarity" at several airports like a 121 pilot can.

Type rating or not, it's safer for a pilot to see someone else operating in challenging airport environments 1st before taking the controls and operating in them personally (IMHO). This isn't a MAN contest. This is a customer service job.

NJ does not sell "minimum certifications" (FAA APPROVED) to our Owners. NetJets sells higher standards to our Owners in the interests of safety and comfort. It's those couple of notches above "legal" that our Owners pay for and receive. It's called "polish" and we love to give it.

And this isn't a "beat up on the SIC" practice. NetJets doesn't release Captains directly to the line following UPG training for just this reason. New PICs fly as a PSIC for a period of months until they develop a solid operational experience base former from experience, not simulation.

Again, this is a company cultural phenomenon based on saefty and comfort... "polish". It's not a "man contest".

Could not have said it better myself.

 

[glasspilot]

I give up.........

I thought I made a very valid point. All you can come up with is "I give up"?

Let's try again. Why do FO's ever need to sit in the left seat?

If the company wants to type everyone then fine. Type 'em. But why do they have to stay current forcing extra evaluation and proficiency from the left seat during recurrent? Just type them so NetJets can advertise fully typed crews and then let them stay in the right seat until upgrade. The only practical reason I can think of was two FOs repositioning an aircraft and you scoffed at that idea. Why I'm not sure as they are freaking TYPED in the damn plane! Why would you care if two FOs who are TYPED flew together?!?!?

So how about you put away your ego and attitude and come up with an answer?

 

[FFLSinHI]

It's taken a while, but I've finally made it through this thread. Outside of the glib commments, there is some interesting discussion. In my AF G-V unit, our FO's fly most of the legs. On a 5 leg trip, the aircraft commander or IP will only fly 1 or 2 of the legs. However, we have a reg restriction that the aircraft commander must fly an actual CAT II or do the landing if you have an emergency. I don't know why, but I figured that the frac world at least traded legs for the most part...

 

[G200_PILOT]

And this isn't a "beat up on the SIC" practice. NetJets doesn't release Captains directly to the line following UPG training for just this reason. New PICs fly as a PSIC for a period of months until they develop a solid operational experience base former from experience, not simulation.

Grasshopper.... you have much to learn.

Since November of last year, there is no such thing as a PSIC. As soon as a pilot completes IOE, he/she is a fully released captain on high mins. They did away with that as part of the new contract. There are MANY cases where the SIC has A LOT more experience in the airplane than the captain. Just thought you should know.

 

[G200_PILOT]

I thought I made a very valid point. All you can come up with is "I give up"?

Let's try again. Why do FO's ever need to sit in the left seat?

If the company wants to type everyone then fine. Type 'em. But why do they have to stay current forcing extra evaluation and proficiency from the left seat during recurrent? Just type them so NetJets can advertise fully typed crews and then let them stay in the right seat until upgrade. The only practical reason I can think of was two FOs repositioning an aircraft and you scoffed at that idea. Why I'm not sure as they are freaking TYPED in the damn plane! Why would you care if two FOs who are TYPED flew together?!?!?

So how about you put away your ego and attitude and come up with an answer?

Hey jackass, Two sic pilots flying together? Who do you work for? It's not my ego that's making me say I give up. It's your lack of attention span.

Goodnight.

 

[G200_PILOT]

It's taken a while, but I've finally made it through this thread. Outside of the glib commments, there is some interesting discussion. In my AF G-V unit, our FO's fly most of the legs. On a 5 leg trip, the aircraft commander or IP will only fly 1 or 2 of the legs. However, we have a reg restriction that the aircraft commander must fly an actual CAT II or do the landing if you have an emergency. I don't know why, but I figured that the frac world at least traded legs for the most part...

If you take an actual poll of ALL the guys, you'd see that for the most part, we do swap legs. Even if the sic only flies the empty legs, most of the time it stays 50/50. You'll see guys say that it's changed to 70/30 but I haven't seen it. Neither has it changed for the guys I talk to. You may have a tour once in a while with a 70/30 ratio, but most of the time it's still 50/50.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Grasshopper.... you have much to learn.

Since November of last year, there is no such thing as a PSIC. As soon as a pilot completes IOE, he/she is a fully released captain on high mins. They did away with that as part of the new contract. There are MANY cases where the SIC has A LOT more experience in the airplane than the captain. Just thought you should know.

G,

I'm not going to point/counterpoint you on the most recent structure of a training department that is being gutted and rebuilt into a completely different animal. My upgrade was years ago and I have not been around the training world. I fly the line. I wouldn't even pretend to WANT to try and keep up with the changes.

Please reread the portion of my original post in regards to "polish".

You'll get it when you upgrade if you don't now...

 

[172driver]

For those PIC's that want to take all the legs going into Aspen, Coral Reef, wet, slick runway, etc., I sure hope you are proficient and/or taking the experience and skill level of your SIC into account before you decide to take the leg.

There's nothing worse as an SIC than having the other guy take the leg from you for "safety reasons" and then completely bungle it. I wonder who has more time and experience on average, our PIC's or our SIC's? I bet it's close.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not necessarily buying into the concept that the PIC is always the safest or most qualified to make a challenging approach and landing. I understand why you might want to because there are times when I would like to take the leg as SIC, not that I would ever say that out loud.

If you are a very proficient PIC, as 95% of you are, I would be happy to give up the leg to make you feel more comfortable, though I might be thinking it's a little arrogant of you.

 

[glasspilot]

Hey jackass, Two sic pilots flying together? Who do you work for? It's not my ego that's making me say I give up. It's your lack of attention span.

Goodnight.

You sir, are an imbecile. I have not resorted to name calling (until now). I was asking an honest question, one that you don't seem to have an answer to. I've spelled it out with third grade language and yet you still can't seem answer the question. You simply resort to name calling.

Do FOs fly together at my company? No. But it's the only logical reason I can think of to require FOs to train from the left seat. You F'ing dolt!

So...piss off.

 

[glasspilot]

"Hmmmm. Never flew an air conditioner."

Very witty...idiot.

 

[G200_PILOT]

Glass, if your attention span was a bit longer than a page, you'd know that I have answered your questions several times. If you can't grasp the fact that it has to do with the way the training was set up years ago, then I can't help you. You're now throwing in crap questions like why two SICs can't fly together if they're typed. Could they at a part 91 company? Sure, I guess they could but I think they'd be considered co-captains. Here at NJA, there's a lot more to know than just flying the airplane when you're a captain. Things that the SIC will learn over time. Why are you so bent around the axle that they're typed? The fact that they're typed doesn't mean jack when it comes to the upgrade process here.

 

[G200_PILOT]

G,

I'm not going to point/counterpoint you on the most recent structure of a training department that is being gutted and rebuilt into a completely different animal. My upgrade was years ago and I have not been around the training world. I fly the line. I wouldn't even pretend to WANT to try and keep up with the changes.

Please reread the portion of my original post in regards to "polish".

You'll get it when you upgrade if you don't now...

Take it easy man. It was meant light-heartedly. I was just letting you know that things changed and it appeared that you weren't aware of it.

BTW, I upgraded 10 years ago.