Netjets Ain Article

[CatYaaak]

Yak,

To use your own quote:

If such statements are indicative of your brainpower, then frankly, you're doomed.


Sir, what is truly ludicrous, is your post.
I purposefully used as few words as possible to NOT be misunderstood. I did not, write, nor imply, that the 40 hour week was that of a corporate pilot. You interpreted that yourself, then proceeded to post based on your misunderstanding.

The 40 hour week is a common data point that we both may refer to. I do NOT know what ever corp pilot schedule is, just as you have no clue what mine is. We can however, compare our respective schedules to one common point, ie…a normal person’s 40 hour week.

Well, excuse me for not picking up on your stunning display of complete, total illogic when you veered off into the realm of irrelevancy and compared yourself to a 40 hr. workweek..something practically no pilot ever works. The issue at hand, of course, was YOUR union leadership...ASAP...comparing JetJets pilots' productivity to NBAA (read; corporate) salary averages in it's statement, which was the subject of the whole discussion and point of comparison. Yes, I must be an idiot....for assuming you could focus on the subject. And you say I meander?

But now that you've compared yourself to secretaries and insurance salesmen (for what reason, who knows), what's next?....perhaps the work schedule of dolphin tank dolphins? I do know by now you won't say anything to back up ASAP's claim, because it's nothing more than ignorant, union pablum that sounds good to the rank and file, but easily disproven because it's based on the idiotic premise that "productivity" in corporate aviation is based simply on hours flown per year, and nothing more. That screams ignorance.

Here's a little irony for you to pass along to whatever genius wrote that stupid apples-to-oranges claim; If "productivity" is measured in simply hours flown per year (as the claim infers), and a company needs crews or airplanes as much as an individual NetJets pilots or aircraft flies, they don't need NetJets at all. In fact, you'd make absolutely no economic sense to them. Even at your current low wages, your frac model is too expensive compared to operating their own department and equipment and hiring their own crews at NBAA salaries for that level of use.

But I sure hope you can follow a line on a taxiway or approach plate better than you can follow a line of debate. Of course, you union devotees aren't used to being disagreed with no matter what your leadership spews, let alone put forth facts to support it. It's all about parotting the same thing over and over and ever more loudly. That's all well and good...it's your house and you can trash it if you want...but only to the point you begin to leak your spewage into the real world by making ludicrous comparisons and arbitrary scablist threats. When that occurs, expect to be challenged.

 

[Live4flyng]

Hey Cat,

Do you have to work at being a D!ck, or does it come naturally? Tell us the real reason why you hate Netjets err.... "JetJets" so much.

If "productivity" is measured in simply hours flown per year (as the claim infers), and a company needs crews or airplanes as much as an individual NetJets pilots or aircraft flies, they don't need NetJets at all. In fact, you'd make absolutely no economic sense to them. Even at your current low wages, your frac model is too expensive compared to operating their own department and equipment and hiring their own crews at NBAA salaries for that level of use.

You must be wrong, or Netjets wouldn't exist. It's all about supply and demand. Obviously there is a huge demand for the "expensive" Netjets model. Please tell us old wise one how you can put a price tag on safety. It must not be as expensive as you claim, please make some economic sense for us already!

 

[CatYaaak]

Hey Cat,

Do you have to work at being a D!ck, or does it come naturally? Tell us the real reason why you hate Netjets err.... "JetJets" so much.

You must be wrong, or Netjets wouldn't exist. It's all about supply and demand. Obviously there is a huge demand for the "expensive" Netjets model. Please tell us old wise one how you can put a price tag on safety. It must not be as expensive as you claim, please make some economic sense for us already!

Before you begin to sound a lot more foolish, you should learn just what part of the business aviation market you cater to in terms of a company's travel requirements, and why very few outside that niche need or want you. For them, you DON"T make economic sense. The numbers speak for themselves and if you don't know them it's strictly your own fault.. they are well known, and don't vary much by anyone's accounting, that accounting being done by many who's business it is to account. On the high side of that use requirement (the number of hours in a year equivalent to what a NetJets pilot typically works), shares that are purchased are usually for supplemental lift purposes only for their own departments....not as a replacement. I'd hate to think that if you work there you haven't bothered to learn this most basic thing about your company.

Not sure what you're getting at with the "can't put a price tag on safety" issue. Is NetJets now claiming they offer a higher standard of safety than one's own flight department? You know, somehow that wouldn't suprise me either, cuz we've heard just about everything. It's useless to quibble about accident/incident rates frac vs. corporate....the numbers are so low for both even one event skews them.

Of course, there's many flight departments who operate squarely in the niche where fracs do make economic sense, but they opt to keep everthing in-house for the much higher level of security and operational control. Those two factors are an integral part of any safety equation and the frac system can't match a well-run in-house department in that regard. That's just the nature of things, but for many companies it trumps all other considerations, the higher relative costs notwithstanding.

 

[Live4flyng]

Before you begin to sound a lot more foolish, you should learn just what part of the business aviation market you cater to in terms of a company's travel requirements

I believe you are the one that needs to learn this.

The numbers speak for themselves and if you don't know them it's strictly your own fault.. they are well known, and don't vary much by anyone's accounting, that accounting being done by many who's business it is to account.

Who is this, President Clinton? So many words coming from you all the time with very little content.

On the high side of that use requirement (the number of hours in a year equivalent to what a NetJets pilot typically works), shares that are purchased are usually for supplemental lift purposes only for their own departments....not as a replacement.

Please explain what the use requirement has to do with the number of hours a Netjets pilot works. I thought we were discussing the fractional business model, not pilot flight/duty hours. As far as the supplemental lift comment, you are about 10 years behind in current events. Keep talking though, your ignorance is really showing.

It's useless to quibble about accident/incident rates frac vs. corporate....the numbers are so low for both even one event skews them./QUOTE] I agree with this statement. If you compare 91 to 135, the numbers tell a different story.

 

[CatYaaak]

I believe you are the one that needs to learn this.

Who is this, President Clinton? So many words coming from you all the time with very little content.

Please explain what the use requirement has to do with the number of hours a Netjets pilot works. I thought we were discussing the fractional business model, not pilot flight/duty hours. As far as the supplemental lift comment, you are about 10 years behind in current events. Keep talking though, your ignorance is really showing.
I agree with this statement. If you compare 91 to 135, the numbers tell a different story.

I don't compare 91 to 135..nobody lumps them together. Outside a handful of a few departments, my "supplemental lift" comments are accurate, and we were dicussing "productivity compared to NBAA companies" because ASAP brings it up and makes claims. For an answer to your other replies, see my post on the other thread.

 

[FlyFlyFly]

Back to the SCAB Debate

I for one could care less if the Teamster's decide to call me a scab. BFD. The place is run by a bunch of thugs and I am frankly surprised that a group of professionals would have anything to do with them. That being said, threatening to call me a scab because I carry a passenger that is a customer of Netjets is so unbelieveably ridiculous that it just makes me chuckle.

I guess you are going to track them and tag the JetBlue crew scabs as well if they fly them home when you strand them? Or Delta or whoever? Makes little sense. I would guess if you succeed in your quest and run NetJets out of business, then the very places you will you be looking for jobs will be chock full of scabs, and I would bet that a fairly good number of you will be hired by a scab.

If that happens, what will you do? You may very well find yourself working for a scab. What does a Teamster do then? I am really curious, would your strong sense of unity allow you to do it? Would you be selling out your brethren if you did?

Maybe these are questions that your wise and seasoned MEC might answer for you before they decide to start hanging monikers on people that have never set foot in a NetJets cockpit.

Your real problem is that you took people at their word and they let you down. Now that they have, you continue to stay saying yessuh boss rather than voting with your feet, much to the detriment of pilots at your company and everywhere else. Good luck with your struggle with management. I would try to find ways to keep the customer's insulated from the problems.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Good points FLY,

That is a good question:

If NetJets pays to have one of their passengers fly on xyz charter, is that crew scabs?

If NetJets pays to have one of their passengers fly on United, is that crew scabs?

Where's the logic?

Ace

 

[Diesel]

FLY FLY FLY must have just watched the movie hoffa. Way to go bud.

Just remember that IF we go on strike it's not just the pilots not showing up to work. It's the supplies from every trucker in the country. It's the overnight packages for parts on UPS. The list goes on and on.

Oh yeah and I forgot places like signature boston will all of a sudden have a lapse of memory on who needs to be fueled out on the ramp.

I'm sure catyaak and publishers will chime in here with their mindless dribble.

 

[h25b]

Where's the logic?

Ace

The question that eludes us all...

Simple answer:

There is no logic to it. Pure ignorance sprinkled in with a little desperation (or maybe the other way around).

signature boston will all of a sudden have a lapse of memory on who needs to be fueled out on the ramp.

What would make this different from any other day at Signature... ??? ... Like the world needs another reason to avoid Signature BOS... Please don't scare us...

Talk about mindless dribble !!!

 

[Diesel]

I was just pointing out that signature boston is going to have trouble fueling us. None of the fuelers will do it.

Of course i'll be enjoying my summer off. 3 months on bidable vacation. Looking forward to it.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

I was just pointing out that signature boston is going to have trouble fueling us. None of the fuelers will do it.

Of course i'll be enjoying my summer off. 3 months on bidable vacation. Looking forward to it.

Interesting angle I hadn't thought of. How would your shutdown affect the fuelers that you use most. 500 planes flying over 1,000 hours each per year. Let's see, 500,000 hours at an average of about 400 gph. Yikes! That's 200,000,000 gallons! Signature would be crying their eyes out (especially since all the rest of us avoid putting one gallon of Signature fuel in our tanks).

Enjoy your vacation, Diesel. Send us a post card from somewhere with palm trees.

Ace

 

[CatYaaak]

FLY FLY FLY must have just watched the movie hoffa. Way to go bud.

Just remember that IF we go on strike it's not just the pilots not showing up to work. It's the supplies from every trucker in the country. It's the overnight packages for parts on UPS. The list goes on and on.

Oh yeah and I forgot places like signature boston will all of a sudden have a lapse of memory on who needs to be fueled out on the ramp.

I'm sure catyaak and publishers will chime in here with their mindless dribble.

Actually, with all the arbitrary scablist threats being slung around by your group at others who might merely be assigned trips with someone who owns a share in one of your airplanes......

.....I was just pondering what the scab-status would be of NetJets pilots who now provide supplemental lift to corporate flight departments. I mean, you and your brothers are flying those Companies' personnel on the same types of aircraft, but you're doing it for far less pay, and for far fewer employee benefits than the Company pilots. And it must make you Teamsters extra proud when some well-paid positions have gone away so you could fly the same people for chump change. Could be you did this when the in-house pilots were asking for raises too, undercutting them.

Gee, if only they had union protections against such....oh silly me, I was forgetting....you ARE the union!

Hmmm...well nevertheless, that sounds pretty scab-like to me...close enough for the non-union corporate world anyway. And I'm certainly not alone if you begin hassling Charter guys who're just doing their job for someone you erroneously think has to ride with you or no-one else. Life is tough enough for them without your sophmoric thuggery. Word travels easily, and although there's no official "list" the aviation world is small. I can already hear those resumes hitting wastebaskets far and wide.

The only question is, just how far will you take your self-destruction? I must admit that even though this strike blabber was predictable, it's still facinating to watch, not unlike watching a car speeding towards a cliff.

 

[tripacer]

Cat Yaak

Keep in mind that most of the NJA posts here are from the disgruntled 250, that are gonna bitch regardless, even if they received $125k by year 6.

However, my concern is that the company is gonna take us in a direction in where we will become the Walmart of fractionals, if we haven't reached it already? I was chatting with a Marquis salesman during one of my 13.45 hr sits at the FBO, and he told me that they've been instructed to "sell the sh*it out of the program and don't worry about having enough airplanes". Wow... the ole' churn and burn mentality. For those of us who came here because we were sick and tired of airline mis-management and all the nonsense associated with it; this place is beginning to have the same look & feel.

I respect the new SU group for the work they've done and for having the balls to re-call the last group of malingerers and booting the teamsters CMH local, but I dont think picketting in front of an FBO is the answer to getting the owners on our side. This may be exactly what management wants us to do so they can then go to the owners and say, "Do you see what we have to deal with"? Informational picketting at an FBO will make our group look cheap and only embarrass us in front of the corporate world.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Tripacer.....we are already an embarrassemnt in the corporate world....even amongst the other fractional.

Informational picketting is just that....letting owners know our side of the story....what's wrong with that? Many of them have no clue as to what is really going on here. Its about time we change that.

I personally heard an owner refer to us as the WalMart of aviation....

Go SU!!!!!!...they have my 1000% support.

 

[Hawkered]

Cat Yaak

I actually agree with much of what you have written here, but you a missing an important point: if you support higher wages, you have to agree that the effective way to do this is with an industry-wide response.

Okay, last week we closed down another flight department somewhere because we undercut a small group of pilots...well how are you helping the situation by promoting scab uplift during a dispute?

The only way to make Netjets "fair", is to allow flight departments to compete on an even footing by ensuring that we are not undercutting them on sweatshop salaries.

Help us...to help you!

 

[Diesel]

When the fuel manager at Boston signature has to do his yearly training he must go to bedford because only union employees are allowed to touch the fuel trucks. Just an interesting point.

I think i'm going on vacation to the pine tree state. I heard it's nice up there.

 

[Hawkered]

No question about it..the much debated pilot shortage is looming in
China, Malaysia, Indonesia, India and most parts of Africa. Within three years it'll be here too. Air traffic is forecast to double by the end the decade. We really have to clean this T/A up now!

 

[400A]

FLY FLY FLY must have just watched the movie hoffa. Way to go bud.

Just remember that IF we go on strike it's not just the pilots not showing up to work. It's the supplies from every trucker in the country. It's the overnight packages for parts on UPS. The list goes on and on.

Oh yeah and I forgot places like signature boston will all of a sudden have a lapse of memory on who needs to be fueled out on the ramp.

I'm sure catyaak and publishers will chime in here with their mindless dribble.

Boy has someone sold you a load of goods. Do you REALLY think that every Teamsters trucker is going to park his truck when the pilots go on strike.

This will keep me laughing all day.

 

[Diesel]

jesus i'll go slower for you this time.

No teamster is going to cross an active picket line. PERIOD

 

[DO-82 driver]

So Diesil...what EXACTLY do you mean?....What is it that you are trying to say???? Stop speaking in riddles and just spit it out!!!!!

 

[Diesel]

I'm trying it's friggin painful.

Notice how all the guys who are posting don't have a dog in this fight?

 

[CatYaaak]

Informational picketting is just that....letting owners know our side of the story....what's wrong with that? Many of them have no clue as to what is really going on here. Its about time we change that.
QUOTE]

Here's what NJAowner posted on about page 5 of this thread, (and I challenge you or anyone to find him posting anything, on any subject, that could even be remotely construed as anti-pilot or NJA-bashing).

"...To reiterate the essence of many of my posts, educating the owners can help the pilots cuase, but irritating, embarrassing or inconveniencing will result in the owners not supporting the pilots......."

Picketing will certainly irritate, possibly embarrass. Both these things can easily reach the level of annoying to the point of inconvenience. If you don't realize this, then you know less about the people you fly than they know about you. Picketing ("informational or otherwise") in a corporate setting would be considered in-your-face, and worse, a few gung-ho idiots out there could really hurt you.

A large proportion of your customers aren't exactly pro-union anyway, how do you think they'll react when you confront them with something that is your company's internal issue in that way during the private travel they pay so much for? Were you ever "enlightened" by someone who was pi$$ing you off except in a negative way? I'll reiterate that these people are NOT a captive market..they have the means, and therefore, alternatives.

But so do you. I think it was Aerochick who recently posted a superb summation on the subject, which offered other specific, MORE EFFECTIVE AND BETTER ALTERNATIVES to inform them, and they don't stand the same good chance of blowing up in your face.

Don't you see that those people are trying to help you?

Tripacer...I agree with you about the disgruntled 250 (or more) and your take on picketing. You're right, it may be exactly what mngmt wants you to do. Unfortunately, the eager, tunnel-visioned, union beavers will happily send the uninformed down a self-destructive avenue when other roads exist.

You never take a knife to a gunfight, but picketing/striking here is more like taking a .44 Magnum to a formal debate, and everyone except the wielder can see the muzzle is plugged and knows what will happen if he fires. Pulling the trigger results in martyrdom and that alone will satisfy any like-minded zealots, but after they've carted off the body the unscathed debators will carry-on as before, except now they're repulsed and suspicious of anyone wearing the same brand, or it cements a pre-conceived attitude.

The education effort there obviously needs two prongs. One that will work for the owners...that's a good cause..and another for your peers to stifle the zealots. Even loud threats to strike filter up, and in your case "up" doesn't end with your own management, but the owners. People who've done good work on an obvious issue (getting rid of your local) can still screw up big-time on something more complicated, especially if they think they're on a roll. It's no betrayal of any "brotherhood" to support the smart route, rather than cater to the loudest, self-aggrandizing few who subordinate taking the best course of action to satisfying their own emotions and dreams of power.

They probably like to swat flies in their house with a sledgehammer too. That's fun to watch as an outsider, but man, I wouldn't want to live there and do nothing.

 

[DO-82 driver]

CatYaaak,

You may correct in that our owners may be a bit embarrassed if there is a work action at NJA. They may be embarrassed because they are going to realize that they were strung along by the company believing that we ere the highest paid professionals in the industry. They are going to start wondering where their fees were going. I certainly wouldn't want to be a salesman trying to explain why their pilots are amongst the LOWEST paid pilots in this industry.

Until it happens, neither you or I can be certain. Personally---at this point I have nothing to lose, I'm already poorly paid and not respected by my company. If the owners go to another fractional that fractional is going to need trained pilots ASAP!!!! I'll just change my tie.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

More logic

Okay, last week we closed down another flight department somewhere because we undercut a small group of pilots...well how are you helping the situation by promoting scab uplift during a dispute?

You make an interesting point. If NetJets crumbles to your demands and raises your salaries, they will have to raise rates, thus leveling the playing ground for flight departments. But if this argument is correct, then NetJets should currently be the least expensive fractional program. They aren't. They are actually the MOST expensive. So they probably can't raise their prices any more above the compatition. So pilots get more money, NetJets looses money, now HOW does that help us corp guys?

Ace

 

[h25b]

You make an interesting point. If NetJets crumbles to your demands and raises your salaries, they will have to raise rates, thus leveling the playing ground for flight departments. But if this argument is correct, then NetJets should currently be the least expensive fractional program. They aren't. They are actually the MOST expensive. So they probably can't raise their prices any more above the compatition. So pilots get more money, NetJets looses money, now HOW does that help us corp guys?

Ace

I'd like to know the answer to this one as well. I thought NetJet's wasn't making much (if any) money to begin with. Wouldn't passing along the higher pay-rates you demand price you above the competition. ???..

 

[Live4flyng]

You make an interesting point. If NetJets crumbles to your demands and raises your salaries, they will have to raise rates, thus leveling the playing ground for flight departments. But if this argument is correct, then NetJets should currently be the least expensive fractional program. They aren't. They are actually the MOST expensive. So they probably can't raise their prices any more above the compatition. So pilots get more money, NetJets looses money, now HOW does that help us corp guys?

Ace

Why would they have to raise rates?

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Why would they have to raise rates?

I didn't say that. The previous poster was using that in his argument. If you read the B.H. public statements, NetJets has been loosing money consistantly. NetJets Europe is getting better, but still dragging their slim US profits down. Do the math, over 2,000 pilots getting even $25,000 more per year. That = $50,000,000 per year in additional expense. Oh yea, plus payrol taxes! What do you guys think would happen. Simple math.

Ace

 

[400A]

jesus i'll go slower for you this time.

No teamster is going to cross an active picket line. PERIOD

OKIE-DOKIE, Still laughing.

You better make sure you never fly an owner of a Teamsters shop that is on strike.

 

[CatYaaak]

CatYaaak,

You may correct in that our owners may be a bit embarrassed if there is a work action at NJA. They may be embarrassed because they are going to realize that they were strung along by the company believing that we ere the highest paid professionals in the industry. They are going to start wondering where their fees were going. I certainly wouldn't want to be a salesman trying to explain why their pilots are amongst the LOWEST paid pilots in this industry.
QUOTE]

The thing is, you're not comparing your salaries to "your industry" (at least ASAPs isn't. see statement). You're comparing yourselves to NBAA salary averages (which is a Membership, not an "industry") garnered primarily from corporate flight departments, which taken even as a group don't qualify as an "industry" unto themselves. They each belong to whatever industry it's parent is involved in. You know, like making steel. They aren't involved in directly generating revenue, and those salaries are a reflection of incrementalism over the years by internal lobbying of av managers, longevity and merit increases, and most of all, individuals not going to work for peanuts. Some of them have "Junior" pilots employed there longer than your senior NJAers.

Your industry is limited to operations that generate revenue using the fractional model. Those are the economic rules and markets you live by. You invented it, remember? You also lobbied loudly and furiously to NOT be classified as Part 135 operations, even though many considered what you did as nothing more than selling block charter time, so therefore didn't pass the Duck Test. You obtained 135 certificates as insurance, but in the end the lobbying paid off, and everyone kept their tax breaks and depreciation, and they spent years writing 91K, delineating you from both corporate and frac.

This delineation, of course, only makes more ridiculous the whole notion of scablisting charter pilots. Hey, why don't you scablist kindergarden teachers who have owner's kids in class while you're at it..if they strike in support the owners will have to stay at home and babysit, unable to fly, thus hurting NetJets! I mean, as long as we're making up "industries" a Teaching Industry makes about as much sense, and if you're gonna use one tenuous association of cause-and-effect, you might as well use them all. Oooo...and they're probably NEA union members too...honest-to-goodness scabs if they teach little Johnny how to spell Cat while you're walking the line!

So anyway, you're paid a lot less than those Flight Options and CitationShares pilots? Now, they are definitely in your industry...your industry is tiny as far as number of companies. I thought you were paid better than any of the other fracs. Shame on me for not knowing.

But it seems to me if you're going to begin scablisting people, you might want to start with people who are actually in your industry first, rather than charter guys who aren't. I mean, that makes more sense, and undoubtedly some of your passengers will bolt over to the other fracs during your upheaval.

And am I reading this right? about you switching those ties....my, my, are you saying you'll go trotting over to what must be a "scab" operation? Do you think they're going to pay you more? If you do, why aren't you working there now?

 

[CatYaaak]

OKIE-DOKIE, Still laughing.

You better make sure you never fly an owner of a Teamsters shop that is on strike.

Oh, I'm sure they check this kind of thing all the time, and many owners are refused!

Hey, I wonder if they've ever flown an evil Airline Management Demon, even as a guest of one of the owners? You know, like down to their vacation homes while the pilots are taking drastic pay cuts? God, how could they look at themselves in the mirror after such a betrayal, especially if they were ALPA members too.

I think they should screen everyone and refuse fly those that don't get the Union Label stamp of approval, lest the righteousness they voice be construed as a convenient facade!

(laughing too)