Netjets Ain Article

[CatYaaak]

You guys get funnier with every page of this thread, and are in danger of completely losing the plot.

 

[Nightmare67]

If NJ goes on strike and your company picks up their flying, are you a scab?

YES...

 

[yosemite]

Flying "Struck Work"

The NetJets Pilot's Union Master Executive Council has not made a public decision on the "struck work" position of GA pilots flying under Part 135 of the FAR at this time.

The decision is expected soon.

Here are some excerpts from our current contract which provide guidance:

1.0 Scope
1.3 All flying performed by the Company or by the Company's parent corporation, or by a subsidiary or affiliate, which is directly or indirectly controlled by the Company, or by the Company's parent corporation, or any successor in interest, or flying performed on behalf of the Company or the Company's parent corporation as a result of any agreement to which the Company or the Company's parent corporation is a party or becomes a party, or flying utilizing the NetJets logo, shall be performed by pilots named on the Executive Jet Pilots Seniority List, except as set forth in 1.4 below.
1.4 Exception to the Scope of this Agreement:

...
d) American Air Services, Inc. (Executive Jet Management, EJM and any other Air Taxi Commercial Operator ATCO) whose purpose is to alleviate "overflow" situations only:
1) The intent is NOT to reduce jobs, or slow expansion, but to assist the Company in extremely busy situations.


These are the provisions allowing the company to contract "vendor" flights. They allow for "overflow" situations only, not situations where the company is trying to supplant union work.

If, as anticipated, the decision is affirmed that any and all persons flying vendor flights for NetJets will be considered as flying "struck work", a public post will be made on this message board.

 

[NJAowner]

My easy Job

"Flying" a desk for 14 hours is far less dangerous than piloting a plane that long. I think they will see the difference.

NetJetWife -- please do not make what I do all day sound sooo easy. By your definition, your husband's job is more important and stressful than being the President of the United States (no political discussions to start here).

No one should ever over-estimate the importance of his/her job and think that he/he is irreplaceable. Every CEO of a majpr corporation is replacable, and even the country can, has and will survive a sudden change in leadership.

To reiterate the essence of many of my posts, educating the owners can help the pilots cuase, but irritating, embarrassing or inconveniencing will result in the owners not supporting the pilots.

Fly safe.

 

[ultrarunner]

I have to agree with NJAowner on this one. The owners are way to smart (they can't be that stupid since they're sitting in the back) to be held hostage by a buch of drivers.

They will and are making plans to go about their business. And they won't let a buch of striking pilots get in the way of their business. THAT you can count on.

I look forward to flying some of the NJowers. I have in the past, and I am confident our dept. can do it just as safe and efficient, if not more so, than NJ. As an added bonus, the folks sitting in the back can be confident that the folks sitting in the front are happy to be there.

And like the profiles...very quick and simple.

 

[Mach92]

I have to agree with NJAowner on this one. The owners are way to smart (they can't be that stupid since they're sitting in the back) to be held hostage by a buch of drivers.

They will and are making plans to go about their business. And they won't let a buch of striking pilots get in the way of their business. THAT you can count on.

I look forward to flying some of the NJowers. I have in the past, and I am confident our dept. can do it just as safe and efficient, if not more so, than NJ. As an added bonus, the folks sitting in the back can be confident that the folks sitting in the front are happy to be there.

And like the profiles...very quick and simple.

So I guess you make more the 37K a year as a Citation X Capt! SO THATS WHY YOUR NOT A PISSED OFF NJA PILOT

 

[ultrarunner]

So I guess you make more the 37K a year as a Citation X Capt! SO THATS WHY YOUR NOT A PISSED OFF NJA PILOT

You would be correct. But that begs the question:

Why do it? Why continue to accept:

#1. A position that sets the bar so low?

and

#2. Letting it consume you to the point of hating what you are doing and who you are doing it for?

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong in moving on dude....happiness is really what matters. Press on, find a new gig, new career, whatever...

Trust me, you will be MUCH happier working in a career and job that meet your expectations, than you will fighting some battle against folks that are much stronger.

 

[netjetwife]

'Owner, I don't know how you got that from my post, because I never said that your job was easy or wasn't stressful. Simply that desks don't crash, and that safety is an important consideration. Your post is way over the top, sir. I made no such comparisons. Actually, I agree that very few people are irreplacable. That said, trying to replace many at one time would be problematic.


It is unfair to suggest that the NJ pilots will be "irritating, embarrassing or inconveniencing" the owners. Even from my front row seat, I am not privvy to the details of their plans. Those are kept under tight wraps. They do intend to educate/inform those involved; the ASAP website and the billboards are a good beginning. As a matter of fairness, shouldn't we wait until they make their next move before we pass judgement?

 

[400A]

135 Scabs

First of all let me make myself clear. I would never cross a NJ picket line, and I support your efforts to increase your QOL.

BUT, A charter Captain who is doing his job, and feeding his family is not a SCAB. And what makes this even worse, is if the worst happens, and the strike puts NJ under, some of you will march right in to that charter company (carrying your scab list) and ask for a job.

How do you people plan to tell if a NJ owner booked the flight direct or not. I fly a NJ owner all the time and will continue to do so. He books me direct, and that always upsets your little gateway agents, and they try to get involved in my trip.

Are you guys gonna put every employee of every aircraft manufacturer on the scab list for building an airplane that flew a NJ trip? Are you going to put every line tech that fuels a plane that flies an NJ trip on that list? What about the owners? are you going to scab list owners that continue to travel and run their companies while you are on strike?

You may control your destiny (good or bad) at NJ, but you can not control every aircraft in corporate aviation. Rest assured if Charter pilots are being listed as scabs the rest of the industry may consider NJ pilots the same. Be careful what you start.

 

[ultrarunner]

Don't get all worked up 400A. We'll continue to do what we do, and we'll be happy to do it, and get compensated well for it.

And in any event, IMO, NJ will continue to operate "as-is" for the forseeable future. I mean, think about it, IIRC, the ammendable date on their contract was sometime way back in 2001, so there certainly hasn't been an sense of urgency for anyone to really give a crapola about ironing out a contract.

My best guess is mid '06 at the soonest. No retroactive (they'll agree so some piddly lump sum), below NBAA median at best, very limited gateways (get yourself to work), etc...

 

[rice]

I know better than to do this but..............

Read the thread, walked away, took a shower, ate bkfst, and I'm still a dumba$$ for coming back and posting this question.

A large management company which has a 135 cert. and currently picks up a number of EJM and some NJA flights. Paperwork does not specify that NJA or EJM is the customer. Am I correct in assuming that ASAP(IBT/SU whatever) will consider the pilots as scabs if we fly the trip? (assuming you strike).

I feel your pain and wish you all the best in your negotiations and believe that you are getting hosed by the company. But how in the world can ASAP possibly think that a bunch of non-represented pilots from dozens (if not a hundred) various 135 operators honor a possible picket line across the country without losing their jobs? Just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

I have no plans to ever work at NJA nor the airlines but I certainly don't want my name on some list either. Hope I'm reading this wrong but if I'm not then you guys really need to rethink this position IMHO. Right now I would guess you have the sympathy and support of many 135 pilots across the country but if you threaten to create a list like that I would guess that support would disappear in an instant.

 

[Capt1124]

What a joke. When ALPA gave the Continental scabs membership, it proved pilot unions in the end are completely phony.

The Emery pilots were ready to run off the contract pilots, and Emery is long gone.

I don't fly 135 but when I did I was not told who the passenger was, whether they were a NJ owner, or who had booked and paid for the trip. Expecting other pilots not to fly NJ airplanes is reasonable. Expecting them to walk away from *their* jobs on *their* airplanes is not.

 

[ghostrider64]

There are many difficult days ahead for everyone associated with fractional flying....135 guys, owners, NJA employees will all be faced with decisions that no one had seen coming 5 years ago...

So a brief summary....

EJA discovers a niche market and grows at an incredible rate. Hiring several hundred pilots and employees a year and explaining to them that a new contract is within 2 years and at that time management starts the rumors about 6 figure salaries at year 5. Pilots and staff bust their asses because they understand that the only way the company can succeed is to go the extra mile. Pilots on the road are working regular 14 and 10's at '98 wages and see cmh staff getting raises and infrustructure being built at amazing rates. Looks good to them. Hiring enough pilots and keeping them is difficult for the company. 9/11 happens and suddenly the company is having a much easier time of hiring pilots. Suddenly the company starts to discuss cost cutting and lack of cash. But still BB at recurrent training is offering that NJA pilot's will have the best pay and benefits in the industry. Contract talks slow to a standstill. Former MEC believes that the company is lossing millions. After 3.5 years a TA is offered for a vote with and incredibly low wage scale and all flexibilty controlled by management and none to the crews. DOT filings by NJA large aircraft division start turning up in public and it is uncovered that they are trying to supress finacial disclosures. Filings are denied and records are released to DOT that disclose "profits", cash flows and cash on hand. So here we are today. Impasse....Possibly collective job actions etc... and how does it effect each of us if the worst thing happens, a strike?

Netjets pilots, who are at present, poorly paid will be forced to sit idle while amassing debt, possibly without medical and other benefits....What do they have to gain? First and foremost self worth. Second a salary and working environment that is unequalled. What do they have to lose. Well "everything" pretty much sums it up. Forloughs etc due to lost customers etc...

NJA non-bargaining employees will probably stay on through out the action. They wont gain or lose much unless the doors are closed.

Here is possibly the most difficult area to address. 135 vendors and other corporate depts. Vendor's pilots will be forced to decide if they will accept a Netjets subcontracted flight. That is one in which their employer is contacted by Netjets to provide transportation. Not one in which a Netjets owner charters directly from them. My personal belief is that these pilots are going to catch the crap that they may not deserve or could have never invisioned. I totally empathize with how difficult it may be to support a Netjets Pilot action. What you are faced with is the likelyhood that if you refuse to fly a charter you will be terminated. But there are ways around this. The so called gray areas, maint, wx etc... But what have you to gain by supporting a Netjets job action? Possibly the new bar being set for all 135 and corporate operators. My feeling is that this is a possibilty that is worth supporting.

Owners will be the least effected. At least relative to us lower net worth individuals. They may lose some flexibilty in transportation. But they can use any 135 operator to charter an aircraft for their travel needs. They may even consider purchasing their own aircraft. They may not get to aspen, vail or hpn ontime but they wont be eating mac and cheese and hotdogs or applying for the WIC program. Which some of our pilots are currently enrolled in. This is not to say that I'm not concerned with them not receiving a service they deserve and have paid a premium for. Quite the contrary. I believe they will not receive services by a company that uses people like Egyptians used Nubians.

The company itself? Well I believe that they are already suffering an image problem. At least as far as new hire pilots are concerned. They need pilots and are hiring but aren't getting the applicants they traditionally sought. Relatively low time and certainly non corporate types are what they are hiring today. Which means much experience will need to be gained by them on the road prior to knowing the ins and outs of ASE, EGE TEB etc...I'm sure they will become productive pilots but it will take time. Netjets isn't yet suffering a public image problem. In the past 2 months I've met owners and passengers at various non work related parties and events and to a person they believe that Netjets is the best at what they do. A strike will tarnish this reputation. To what extent is unclear but news of them not providing the services they sell will travel quickly through the owner/marquis ranks.

The sad truth is all of this could have been resolved years ago had the company not used it's power position to keep wages and benefits so low. Had they just offered a fair wage on the last TA we wouldn't even be faced with this. But instead they did their job so well they basically slapped 2000 pilots in the face. This slap was like awaking the giant. Now there is a truly "collective" bargaining group of pilots that will not accept anything less than a fair and equitable wage that will allow them the ability to "provide" for themselves and their families.

I hope, whether you are pro or con Union, you as individuals can support Netjets pilots in their fight for setting a bar we can all be proud of. A bar we may all benefit from. In this age of airline jobs no longer being the place, perhaps this fight will bring new positives to a damaged industry. I for one hope and believe it's very possible.

I never thought I would see the day when pilots would not fight collectively, together, as a cohesive industry. It saddens me personally that we can't all see the good which may come of this turmoil.

 

[400A]

?????????????

Don't get all worked up 400A. We'll continue to do what we do, and we'll be happy to do it, and get compensated well for it.

And in any event, IMO, NJ will continue to operate "as-is" for the forseeable future. I mean, think about it, IIRC, the ammendable date on their contract was sometime way back in 2001, so there certainly hasn't been an sense of urgency for anyone to really give a crapola about ironing out a contract.

My best guess is mid '06 at the soonest. No retroactive (they'll agree so some piddly lump sum), below NBAA median at best, very limited gateways (get yourself to work), etc...

Your post makes no sense. I am not worked up. I am always at work and happy to be there. I am well treated and well paid, but we do fly a little charter. I dont know if i would accept an NJ charter or not. If i did I would be more concerned about safety issues and not some scab list. Maybe it is you who needs to return to work?

 

[Turbinehead]

NJA owner has A / rather "THE" point

"Flying" a desk for 14 hours is far less dangerous than piloting a plane that long. I think they will see the difference.

NetJetWife -- please do not make what I do all day sound sooo easy. By your definition, your husband's job is more important and stressful than being the President of the United States (no political discussions to start here).

No one should ever over-estimate the importance of his/her job and think that he/he is irreplaceable. Every CEO of a majpr corporation is replacable, and even the country can, has and will survive a sudden change in leadership.

To reiterate the essence of many of my posts, educating the owners can help the pilots cuase, but irritating, embarrassing or inconveniencing will result in the owners not supporting the pilots.

Fly safe.

The customers will not tolerate it! In the end, and in the beginning this is most important.

Customers will not tolerate pilots delaying / cancelling trips because of an unreadable placard in the hyd service bay, they will not tolerate the actions suggested by Ghostrider, :"

.......I totally empathize with how difficult it may be to support a Netjets Pilot action. What you are faced with is the likelyhood that if you refuse to fly a charter you will be terminated. But there are ways around this. The so called gray areas, maint, wx etc... But what have you to gain by supporting a Netjets job action?.......

The CANCER of unionism at NJ is fully implanted, and is metastisizing to the mentality of every pilot, and more importantly their morale and customer service dedication.

I want the best for you all, but it looks like the CUSTOMERS will win in the end. The powerful ones ie management and customers are going to win and many pilots will shed tears and "blood" for naught. Its a shame, and there is probably no turning back at this point, as the CANCER is deeply rooted.

Best of all to the bretheren.

 

[prpjt]

Here is possibly the most difficult area to address. 135 vendors and other corporate depts. Vendor's pilots will be forced to decide if they will accept a Netjets subcontracted flight. .

In 2001, when I was doing some part time charter work, we did some work for various fracs. I don't recall seeing the name of the fractional provider anywhere on my paperwork. The release and manifest just stated Dr. Brown or Mrs. Jones. Sometimes it was Dr. Brown and Mrs. Jones, and Mrs. Brown was calling to find out where her husband was, but that's for another thread. You get the idea.

Do those of you who currently fly 135 always know if the trip is to cover for a frac?

 

[400A]

sometimes

We can sometimes tell if it is a fractional. If it has passed through a couple of brokers it becomes cloudy though.

 

[rice]

Time to Get Off the Pipe!!!!!

There are many difficult days ahead for everyone associated with fractional flying....135 guys, owners, NJA employees will all be faced with decisions that no one had seen coming 5 years ago...

So a brief summary....


Here is possibly the most difficult area to address. 135 vendors and other corporate depts. Vendor's pilots will be forced to decide if they will accept a Netjets subcontracted flight. That is one in which their employer is contacted by Netjets to provide transportation. Not one in which a Netjets owner charters directly from them. I totally empathize with how difficult it may be to support a Netjets Pilot action. What you are faced with is the likelyhood that if you refuse to fly a charter you will be terminated. But there are ways around this. The so called gray areas, maint, wx etc... But what have you to gain by supporting a Netjets job action? Possibly the new bar being set for all 135 and corporate operators. My feeling is that this is a possibilty that is worth supporting.

Ghost,
Really man, PUT THE PIPE DOWN!!!!!! That stuff will kill you!
It's not a difficult area for 135 guys (except maybe the EJM types).
1. Since we (pilots) generally don't know if it's a related NJA/NJI/EJM flight how can the union possibly have ANY expectations that we (pilots) will not accept the trip?
2. You think ANYONE out there is going to put their employment at risk (at will employment in a 135 operation) by turning down a trip using a bogus excuse as wx, maint, etc?? GET REAL!!!!
3. As for the bar being set; How the hell do you figure that not crossing the line will improve any 135 guy's QOL/pay???? Just isn't gonna happen at the smaller type operations and most of the pilots at the larger 135 operators EJM,JET,TAG,AIR GROUP,AVJET,etc are making more than NJA guys already and probably more than you'll get in a new TA.

Again while I support the efforts of your group to improve your situation and I will not actively seek to fly any of "your flying", I think it's absurd for your MEC to think they can hold the entire 135 pilot force hostage under the threat of some list.
My feeling is that some of you guys have taken a few to many hits off the pipe and have lost touch with reality on some issues.
Again, good luck in the negotiations, I hope you get all you can and then some but don't alienate (sp?) your advocates in the process.

 

[ultrarunner]

I just made a request that the company that books my charters only indicate the required passenger information. In the past, they would typically indicated paying third-party.

No reason for our crews to know that.

Less is more.

 

[h25b]

I am writing the Union leasdership at NetJets to find out more about this situation. If they choose to go down this road, which I KNOW would be a HUGE mistake they all better count on being completely shunned by the ENTIRE business aviation community.

I currently fly these trips alot and the union had my full support. I'm in the top 10% of pay for my equipment (as are all of our pilots). I just find it amusing that the ASAP web site itself points to pilots like myself when making their case for higher pay and then turns around and tries to screw us.

Good going guys...

(insert sounds of all NetJets pilot resumes hitting shredder).

I can tell you for a fact that there's a lot of pilots from NetJets that have resumes out and can also guarantee who's side the rank and file of NBAA Membership will fall on this one. Just make darn sure NetJets is where you plan on being for life before you start making enemies out of the people that are supporting you.