Netjets Ain Article

[SafetyTheSeat]

"Flying" a desk for 14 hours is far less dangerous than piloting a plane that long. I think they will see the difference.

NetJetWife -- please do not make what I do all day sound sooo easy. By your definition, your husband's job is more important and stressful than being the President of the United States (no political discussions to start here).

No one should ever over-estimate the importance of his/her job and think that he/he is irreplaceable. Every CEO of a majpr corporation is replacable, and even the country can, has and will survive a sudden change in leadership.

To reiterate the essence of many of my posts, educating the owners can help the pilots cuase, but irritating, embarrassing or inconveniencing will result in the owners not supporting the pilots.

Fly safe.

Dude,

I can’t handle your comments anymore… Let me make this simple for you because like most people with money your ego will not allow you to see or hear what is being conveyed to you. So here it goes one last time.



Sitting at your desk and making a mistake (one mistake) will not KILL YOU!



Sitting at your desk and making a mistake (one mistake) will not cost you your job!



Sitting at your Desk and Failing semi-annual training will not cost you your job!



Failing to note a safety item (one time) on your desk prior to sitting down will not KILL you!



Not paying attention to detail, hour after hour, at your desk will not kill you!!



Failing a FAA route checked at your desk anytime day or night will not cost you your job!!!



Failing your semi-annual physical will not cost you your job!!



Having High Blood pressure will not cost you your job!!



Working 14 hours a day- day in day out- with only 10 hours of rest will diminish your attention but will not KILL you at your desk!!



Failure in your job can’t kill you only diminish your quality of life.

 

[Turbinehead]

Ok, so then why?

Dude,

I can’t handle your comments anymore… Let me make this simple for you because like most people with money your ego will not allow you to see or hear what is being conveyed to you. So here it goes one last time.



Sitting at your desk and making a mistake (one mistake) will not KILL YOU!



Sitting at your desk and making a mistake (one mistake) will not cost you your job!



Sitting at your Desk and Failing semi-annual training will not cost you your job!



Failing to note a safety item (one time) on your desk prior to sitting down will not KILL you!



Not paying attention to detail, hour after hour, at your desk will not kill you!!



Failing a FAA route checked at your desk anytime day or night will not cost you your job!!!



Failing your semi-annual physical will not cost you your job!!



Having High Blood pressure will not cost you your job!!



Working 14 hours a day- day in day out- with only 10 hours of rest will diminish your attention but will not KILL you at your desk!!



Failure in your job can’t kill you only diminish your quality of life.

If your job is so important, safety, then WHY?

WHY did you accept so little compensation for it when you were hired. WHY didnt you go somewhere else? You hurt the industry as a whole when you told your employer by accepting this job with this level of responsibility for substandard wages that YOU were OKAY with it, and forever after hurt the standard in the industry.

DEAL!

Turb.

 

[ultrarunner]

If your job is so important, safety, then WHY?

WHY did you accept so little compensation for it when you were hired. WHY didnt you go somewhere else? You hurt the industry as a whole when you told your employer by accepting this job with this level of responsibility for substandard wages that YOU were OKAY with it, and forever after hurt the standard in the industry.

DEAL!

Turb.

Turb hit the nail on the head. The NJ pilot group as a whole as set the bar so low, by accepting such substandard wages.

Each and everyone would be better served by moving on to company's that pay a fair wage. They would have more pride in themselves, their family and would take more pride in their jobs.

For some reason, they (the NJ pilot group) I think believes they have this great power to hold management hostage. I don't believe they do.

At what cost due you continue the fight? And at what point do you say to yourselves on your drive home from work:

"...ya know, I am going to move on to a company that values me and what I bring and can offer..."

Each and every time a NJ pilot says that, they will have been set free.

 

[niteflyr]

Amen ultrarunner, set me free!

"...ya know, I am going to move on to a company that values me and what I bring and can offer..."

I hadn't even thought of that for the past 15+ years I have been doing this, thanks for your insight in pointing it out! I guess I will accept one of the MANY offers sitting out there from just such companies, that appreciate me. Thank you again for opening my eyes...(MUCH sarcasm intended)

Why accept this job? Because unfortunately it is still the highest paid job I have had yet. So don't lump all the low paying aviation job problems on the NJA group. We are doing our best to try to change this, in spite of all the others not wanting to pitch in with the effort. Somehow WE have become the bad guys in all this, pretty sad.

 

[NJA Capt]

Well, the "less productive pilots" part just highlights the broad-based ignorance of corporate aviation that resides within the NetJets pilot ranks. How many corporate pilots get 1/3 to 1/2 a month in "hard" days off? How many live somewhere where they aren't based, and commute on company time at company expense? The list goes on. Far from being "more productive", the frac scheme requires hiring an additional 2 to 3 pilots per airplane to sufficiently crew it. A company operating their own flight department buys a he!! of a lot more from a pilot even just in terms of availability than what a NetJets pilot produces.

Let’s reword this:


Well, the "less productive pilots" part just highlights the broad-based ignorance in corporate aviation.

Who are you kidding? 80+% of NJA pilots are former corp pilots. How many corp pilots have former frac experience?
Who knows who better?

How many corporate pilots get 1/3 to 1/2 a month in "hard" days off?

How many corp guys are HOME every night?
How many corporate guys spend 150+ RONs/yr?
How many corp guys fly 4-6 legs/day, every duty day for a week?

How many live somewhere where they aren't based, and commute on company time at company expense?

How many corporate pilots have to travel 200-2000 miles to get the airplane they are assigned to……EVERY week?
How many corp planes return to their "base" 2 times per year?

Far from being "more productive", the frac scheme requires hiring an additional 2 to 3 pilots per airplane to sufficiently crew it.

How many corp planes fly 85 hours/month or 900+ hours/yr?
How many would/could fly that schedule with 1 crew per plane?

 

[Flyingdutchman]

And thats why you guys deserve a better pay!! And we (91 corp and 135 charter) support ya! so don't start a fight with us, fight your managment.

Did you know that first year pay at Netjets Europe is about E 40.500 (+/-
55.000 USD) you guys deserve ATLEAST the same..

However, don't try to start a fight with us. Let's stay united dang it, we are in this crap together.

FD

 

[Daveman]

I deleted my first post since I am no longer a 135 pilot and thought I had "no dog in the fight". Well, I was wrong. I implore the NetJet pilots not to sanction
any type list towards the 135 community. This may/will alienate NJ drivers from potential employers in corporate aviation.
This isn't a hostile post, but rather a strong reminder. I've wished you well in earlier posts and continue the same.
I wish all Frac/pilots luck, no ill-will. But do not list them as scabs, it will come back to haunt you.

Regards,
Daveman

 

[English]

Our company was called yesterday and asked how many hours we could fly for Netjets/EJM this month.

A buddy of mine was just promised 96 hours in April on his aircraft.

It's happening already.

 

[Diesel]

Just a couple of points.

When United struck the pax flew on other carriers which was their choice. United didn't have american come in and start flying under the united schedule with united callsigns. The pax made the choice to fly on american or delta.

Netjets is trying to use it's supplemental lift (charters and vendors) to try and weaken the unions power. Basically bringing in the "replacements" so they can keep flying.

I really hope the union doesn't feel that charters and vendors are going to be scabs. I have a lot of friends in the charter world and this would really suck. I can see both points of view.

Catyaak, and turbine head and the others can spread your hate somewhere else.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Just a couple of points.

When United struck the pax flew on other carriers which was their choice. United didn't have american come in and start flying under the united schedule with united callsigns. The pax made the choice to fly on american or delta.

Netjets is trying to use it's supplemental lift (charters and vendors) to try and weaken the unions power. Basically bringing in the "replacements" so they can keep flying.

I really hope the union doesn't feel that charters and vendors are going to be scabs. I have a lot of friends in the charter world and this would really suck. I can see both points of view.

Catyaak, and turbine head and the others can spread your hate somewhere else.

I guess one big question (acid test, if you will) is whether the operator has been supplying lift for NJ prior to this dispute. If so, they are not doing anything new (business as usual), and, in fact, they have been part of NJs success (good for the employees). Now then, if some companies that were not in a previous relationship with NJ were to take advantage of this situation, that would be profiting from your loss. It is a blurred line as NJ cannot keep their customers happy 100% of the time without using some charter, and now you want the charter pilots to 'side' with the NJ pilots and risk their own jobs, thus preventing them from being a productive part of the whole fractional formula in the future when your contract is complete.

Keep it civil.

What do they say, don't sh$t where you sleep? Something like that.

Ace

 

[400A]

Just a couple of points.

When United struck the pax flew on other carriers which was their choice. United didn't have american come in and start flying under the united schedule with united callsigns. The pax made the choice to fly on american or delta.

Netjets is trying to use it's supplemental lift (charters and vendors) to try and weaken the unions power. Basically bringing in the "replacements" so they can keep flying.

I really hope the union doesn't feel that charters and vendors are going to be scabs. I have a lot of friends in the charter world and this would really suck. I can see both points of view.

Catyaak, and turbine head and the others can spread your hate somewhere else.

Here is another way to look at that. While "They" (your owners)(who have no dog in this fight) may be able to keep flying. That will really make the financial hit larger on your company, therefore making them (NJ) respond faster.

For example. DOC on your 400XP's is around $900 per hour. Our Charter rate on ours is $1950.00 per hour. That is a huge increase in cost. Not to mention that when I do support trips for the fracs, I normaly have 2 dead head legs for every live leg flown (ouch) and they can not pass any part of those 2 legs to your owners. Now throw in the fact that they may have to upgrade to a larger aircraft to cover the trip because that is the only thing available, then it really hurts.

The Charter guys are not the evil here. We back you up during good times, and bad. Not to mention that when they are having to use every available charter aircraft out there, Many of them will not be in the same age and condition as your fleet. Many charter birds are rags. This will now cause your owners to put further pressure on management to fix your situation and get you back flying.

Some charter companies have new aircraft like we do, but not many. A large portion of the 135 fleet is going to make you guys look really good, So again dont take it out on the pilots that are doing their jobs.

 

[anon]

Yes the ALPA scablist. Arrangements have already been made. Two former UAL MEC members (who submitted the names of the 1985 UAL scabs) now fly with us. Those that cross will make the list. We are direct communications with Judus Iscariot ... maintainer of the master scablist.

Pay no attention to an ALPA scab list.

ALPA will gladly accept a scab back into the union. In fact, the MEC will make him the head of a security committee. It's been done at ASA.

 

[CatYaaak]

Let’s reword this:


Well, the "less productive pilots" part just highlights the broad-based ignorance in corporate aviation.

Who are you kidding? 80+% of NJA pilots are former corp pilots. How many corp pilots have former frac experience?
Who knows who better?


How many corp guys are HOME every night?
How many corporate guys spend 150+ RONs/yr?
How many corp guys fly 4-6 legs/day, every duty day for a week?

How many corporate pilots have to travel 200-2000 miles to get the airplane they are assigned to……EVERY week?
How many corp planes return to their "base" 2 times per year?

How many corp planes fly 85 hours/month or 900+ hours/yr?
How many would/could fly that schedule with 1 crew per plane?

You guys do work hard...when you're at work anyway. It's the "at work" part that matters to the people paying the bills.

Nice little list of questions you have....

Most corporate guys aren't home every night. That's extremely rare.

Don't know how many, but quite corporate guys few spend 150 RONs/yr.

4-6 legs a day?..not many corporate guys do that, but of course when you do that you're doing it within the confines of flight and duty time regs. If you're doing commuter (or SWA) airline-type work, well, you know that before getting into it. Some people like it that way, others don't. I dont.

Don't know why you're whining about traveling to meet an airplane. You're doing it on company time withing duty time limits. Pretty much just plunking your butt in an airline seat and burning up a work day, or part of it. That's just like Waiting time except the scenery is changing. But I guess that goes with the territory of having a gateway system instead of moving to one base, doesn't it? Don't see why you're crying about it, or think it's a big deal.

Doesn't matter what "the plane does". You maximize your flying hours on duty days (when you're not airlining), but you're availability over a year is low. You work hard, and have lots of time off. That's the way you wanted it.

You don't have one crew per airplane, so I feel to see any comparison. Your crew needs are larger per airplane.

I doubt your claim of 80%+ of your group ae "former corporate pilots", if you mean coming from Part 91 flight departments flying jet equipment because by and large that's what ASAP is referring to when they cite "NBAA" salary averages and being "more productive". No doubt a few came from 91 flight departments, but the vast majority of NJA pilots come from the regional pilot ranks, charter, with some military tossed in.

If you mean that one of your ex-ASA (or whatever) guys at some point flew a Cessna 421 for some businessman in his past and therefore "former corporate", you're losing sight of the fact that this is not the type of operation where ASAP is deriving it's point of comparison.

 

[h25b]

Why accept this job? Because unfortunately it is still the highest paid job I have had yet. So don't lump all the low paying aviation job problems on the NJA group. We are doing our best to try to change this, in spite of all the others not wanting to pitch in with the effort. Somehow WE have become the bad guys in all this, pretty sad.

I think the low paying aviation jobs were out there prior to NetJets coming along. NetJets just adds a couple thousand (or how ever many pilots there are at NetJets) to the ranks...

How about doing a post on the corporate forum and look for some leads? I looked up your posts and didn't notice you doing this.

If you haven't found anything that pays better than NetJets in 15 years you had better start networking better, try breath mints, spell-check your resume, buy a better suit to interview in, marry a Chief Pilot's daughter, etc... But somehow I think there's forces at work greater than "there's no jobs out there..."

Are you open to moving? Where are you looking?

Nobody thinks you're the bad guys.... yet... Start playing the scab game though and all bets are off.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

400A, your last post is spot-on.

Every NJ pilot should consider this:

If the 'owners' have NO lift they will look for another company and NJ as a whole will be in a worse market and financial postion.

If the 'owners' have to fly in charter airplanes, 1. It will cost NJ a ton of money, and 2. It will p$ss off the 'owners', but they will wait it out.

It makes sense.

What a stupid fight.

Ace

 

[NJA Capt]

Your posts are so full of meandering drivel that I cannot address everything, so I will just point out this one.

…but you're availability over a year is low.

2500 hr/yr based on 7/7, 14 hr duty days

vs.

2000 hrs/yr based on M-F 40 hr week.

 

[ultrarunner]

Your posts are so full of meandering drivel that I cannot address everything, so I will just point out this one.





2500 hr/yr based on 7/7, 14 hr duty days

that's 182 days worked per year, 182 days off. Each day on is a full day's work.


2000 hrs/yr based on M-F 40 hr week.

that's 260 days a year, 105 days off. Each day is AT LEAST 8 hrs as we're generally talking about non-exempt employees here.

What's your point?

 

[GVFlyer]

Just another data point for you...

At Gulfstream - if the Demo pilots are working they're gone. The test pilots work at least five days a week and one weekend a month.

GV

 

[CatYaaak]

Your posts are so full of meandering drivel that I cannot address everything, so I will just point out this one.

2500 hr/yr based on 7/7, 14 hr duty days

vs.

2000 hrs/yr based on M-F 40 hr week.

Let's talk drivel....your notion that Corporate pilots' availablility and work is limited to a M-F 40hr work week/ 2000 hr. work year. That's equivalent to 8 hours per day of working and/or availabilty, thus 16 hours per day not having to answer the phone if the office calls, including being untouchable every weekend and 2 weeks vacation.

Nice fantasy, but of course, completely ludicrous. You've truly lost it, and obviously have no clue what working a salaried position means, let alone one in corporate aviation.

So stay away from any corporate job, no matter how high the salary is if this is your expectation. You'll only find severe unhappiness and disappointment when you find out a company expects more for the salary they pay than you being able to switch off your phone for all but 2000 hours a year. No doubt you'd be crushed to find out that there's no such thing as "overtime pay" either.

This lies at the heart of why ASAP's comparison about "productivity" is a total joke, and we all know it. You easily fool yourselves, that much is clear ("nobody works as hard as we do..waaah!"), but what's even funnier is you thinking you can gloss over your hard time-off reality in your effort to convince anyone it's unjust you're not on par with NBAA averages.

If such statements are indicative of the brainpower of your new union leadership, then frankly, you're doomed. Either they are so green and clueless to the business they actually believe it themselves, or have already gone down the road of telling you just what you want to hear, relying on your ignorance for your support.

 

[Turbinehead]

So stay away from any corporate job, no matter how high the salary is if this is your expectation. You'll only find severe unhappiness and disappointment when you find out a company expects more for the salary they pay than you being able to switch off your phone for all but 2000 hours a year. No doubt you'd be crushed to find out that there's no such thing as "overtime pay" either.

Right on Cat.

They want to stay away from corporate because they will have to WORK with nothing but their individual performance to protect them. Would have to do their own flight planning (no ops to hand them their flight plan) and would have to get their own meals - no whining where is my breakfast where is my lunch- you might not eat all day and you will have to like it.

You screw up, you gone.

See it is all about giving. Union mentality is a taking mentailty. What can i get for the least amount of effort. Those who are individual achievers - overachievers- are those most successful in any venture especially corporate aviation. Corporations can pick and choose the cream of the crop, the rest go fractional where they drift along as a number-just another type rated human machine driving the airplane looking for ways to get more money for less work.

Proof of concept: those pilots whose self worth is so low they would accept sub par wages that cause them to have to join the WIC program. Hellooo? Get out there and achieve more. Find a better job challenge yourself.

Someone said i was spreading hatred. You mean threatening fellow pilots in the industry for doing THEIR jobs in the event of a strike is not HATRED? You people are twisted. Its like a cult you belong to this ASAP. They are brainwashing you. They are imposing these "rules" ....who cares about your rules...who the frig do you think you are?

The quagmire grows more quagmirey by the day.

Good luck.