NetJet is gonna EXPLODE!

[Aspiring to be]

Very surprised to hear Diesel say that his company does not interpolate on temp. Safety is one thing but going above safety levels is difficult for me to understand. Do you add/subtract the wind factor? Do you add/subtract RW slope? Do you add to these and round up on all things. I do not see where safety is compromised by using actual figures. Has nothing to do with being a test pilot. The numbers should be in your book. I guess the safest thing we can do is keep the aircraft in the hanger then we will give a total of 100% safety with zero risk associated with flying. I admit that legal and safe are two different things at times but to pad the numbers is not fair to the owners. If you are legal and safe then I see no need to pad the numbers. What would you do if you had a 6 knot tail wind, go to 10 knots? What would you do if you have RW slope of 1% go to 2 % ? Does not take a brain surgeon to figure the actual max allowable T/O weight and use that number.

 

[GVFlyer]

GV,


..." Lieutenant, take care of your Marines and your Marines will take care of you." That inspired me and I really saw that kind of leadership practised and I tried to lead that way myself. In the military we mentored our subordinate leaders and monitored their careers. We cared about our people... we really did.

...Espirit de Corps. That means a strong feeling of comradeship for your coworkers and the company mission. Thats what Real leaders instill in their people. And you either have Espirit de Corps or you don't. The best Flying Job in the world is military pilot IMO...

...I believe a good management VALUES its human assets.... And good leadership should LEAD the employees to economic success! ...

I couldn't agree with you more.

Semper Fi, Marine!

 

[Aspiring to be]

I never said anything about not being safe. I do not believe in compromising safety but I do believe that if the actual numbers are there then not to go could be wrong. I did say that I see no need to pad the numbers. You only need the numbers required. If you are legal for departure, then in my book it means that you meet all requirements. With passengers I would under no circumstance operate less than required under part 135. What the poster indicated to be that if he was legal at 6 but legal at 10 degrees then he would not go because he rounded his numbers up. Sorry but I do not agree. I have operated too many flights that were at max for departure for some reason. To pad the numbers in a part 121 operation could mean you are leaving revenue behind, not normally allowed by the company unless you have some other good reason. In part 135 it might mean that you just not leave. What ever is the most restrictive on departure is what you must use. I do disagree with padding the numbers. The poster that I was responding to said that he or his company would round the numbers up for safety. I believe that your decision to go or not to go should be made using real numbers.

 

[CatYaaak]

GV..While the unions may not have been 100% correct in everything that they have pushed for, I would hate to think where you, me and the rest of our fellow pilots(121/135/91) would be today if our pay and benefits had been left to the benevolence of the employer.

Hmmm, so now highly-paid, Part 91 corporate pilots (never unionized) supposedly owe ALPA etc, their gratitude also? Talk about hubris.

 

[A4Forever]

Cat... Well then, to what would you attrubite those "High Paying Corporate Jobs"? It has to be the product of something. My point is that someone/something raises the bar. For the most part, it was a union. That's not to say that there aren't any benovlent employers out there. (somewhere)

 

[CatYaaak]

Cat... Well then, to what would you attrubite those "High Paying Corporate Jobs"? It has to be the product of something. My point is that someone/something raises the bar. For the most part, it was a union. That's not to say that there aren't any benovlent employers out there. (somewhere)

Corporate pilot's salaries are a function of the value of the assets they manage, the risk they manage, the security they provide, and the value of the time and hassle saved by highly-paid executives by traveling on their own aicraft as opposed to the ineffecient and time-wasting airlines that are also prone to slowdowns and strikes. Corporate aircraft do not directly generate revenue for the company, and salaries have never been, are not, and never will be a function of the potential revenue the aircraft can directly generate. What raises the bar in corporate aviation is providing better service than any airline can muster, and returning high pay with loyalty. I don't know one corporate pilot that works for a negotiated hourly rate, they work on salary. They get paid the same whether they are flying, waiting at hotels, at airports, by the pool, for being ready. The terms "per diem, trip rigs, duty rigs, and bidding" all those things that unions negiotiate for, are alien. Most of all, corporate pilots don't view management as the enemy because they know they flight department isn't THE company, but exists only as a tool to help the company in it's endevours. They don't stike or threaten to strike. They get paid to make management's life easier, and more productive.

Your so-called union-won "bar" means nothing outside the common-carriage world of 121 and 135. The fundamental basis of every union-negotiated pay scale at the airlines (unlike the corporate sector) is the revenue generation potential DIRECTLY created by the particular aircraft those pilots fly, and negotiated at an hourly wage. Big airplane = big hourly rates. Smaller airplane = less. It has nothing to do with the cumulative value of lives on board, except for the uninformed. Revenue generation drives airline salaries, not value of the asset or the time and convenience of those riding on the aircraft. If negotiations break down and no agreement is reached on this partitioning-out-the-revenue question, they strike, or threaten to, or slowdown, and to he11 with the passengers. If the wheels don't move, you don't get paid. Pulling back the power so as not to arrive too early is virtually unknown in the corporate world, but common in the airline world. Taxing out when you know you will sit for 2 hours on the taxiway when you don't need to is unfathomable, but it's no secret that airline pilots will do it so they can block out and start making that $20 or $200 per hour....so what if the pax are trapped going nowhere. That's the kind of nonsense that will get you fired in the corporate world...you're paid well not to engage in such childish devices.

You see, the sun (nor corporate pilot salaries) doesn't rise and fall with what airline unions do, and frankly, they don't care. If you think G-lV pilots wait breathlessly to see what the latest step-bargaining scale at ..um....United will be so they can run to their CEO and say, "hey I'm not gonna work unless you give me an industry-leading contract", then you are sorely mistaken. Airline bargaining "issues" are barely on the radar screen, let alone the center of the universe no matter how much you want it to be true.

Both groups may pilot airplanes, but the airplane's "reason for being" and the basis and structure of pilot pay to do those jobs almost diametrically opposed.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I realize that this example assumes a 121 op, but bear with me:

Suppose a 757 pilot flies 6 hours in a particular day (2 3hr flights)and earns (for sake of argument) $250 per hour.

If the aircraft was full (assume 250 pax), the pilot was responsible for 500 lives over the course of 6 hours.


Now suppose that a 737 pilot flies 6 hours (4 1.5 hr flights).

Suppose that the aircraft seats 125 full.
This pilot was responsible for 500 people for a total of six hours.

Additionally, this pilot had two extra takeoff/landing cycles to be responsible for. Possibly approaches to low weather.


The 757 pilot makes 6 x $250 = $1500

The 737 pilot might make 6 x $180 = $1080


The argument can certainly be made that the 757 pilot is responsible for more lives at a time, but another argument could be made that the 737 pilot is responsible for more critical phases of flight in the given time period.

In short, pilots love to talk about 'responsibilty' and 'revenue production' ad nauseum. The truth is that most pilots could not being to quantify all of the tangible and intangible factors that determine pilot pay. Which leads to the real truth - we do it this way out of tradition - nothing more. It is humorous to watch people try to use logic to defend religion. This is very nearly the same thing.

This method of determining compensation is a shot in the dark that is better than nothing, but it still is a blunt tool.

 

[Aspiring to be]

Cat Yaaak your dislike and disrespect for airline pilots is indicative of a bitterness cause by not being able to be one. Yea I know you never have had a desire to be an airline pilot. Your attempt to classify these pilots as self centered money grabbing pilots is not called for. You know nothing of what you speak; I was an airline pilot and of course know hundreds more.

I have never met an pilot that would leave the gate only to get on the clock. Many times the company has asked me to leave when I knew we could not leave but the gate space was needed. I have taxied out in an L-1011 and had the passengers watch almost 2 complete movies prior to departure. I have taxied out at JFK, ORD where the wait was over an hour many times. To wait would not have changed that time unless you maybe waited until the next day. Gate hold at times will help. Wonder what you do if yoiu have a gate hold, do you just tell your owners, well maybe tomorrow will be a better day? I have never heard of anyone pulling the power back so they would not be early. I have been warned about gate space on the ground that would not be available until a certain time and I have pulled back to LRC to save fuel when I knew that all we could do is sit on the ground when we arrived. I have taxied out at TEB and waited for an hour with what I figured was no choice. Yes I could have waited until the delay was reduced to your acceptable level but the average person would rather wait an hour than cancel or wait 8 hours or more. I can assure you that it was not to get on the clock.

You write as a person bitter toward airline pilots. You can try and deny the benefits that have filtered down to every facet of aviation that were due to what the airlines pilots accomplished. It is like cutting off your nose in spite of your face. You know nothing about the normal contract of the airline pilots. I doubt that you know much about the history of aviation. I am sure you know little about the group of pilots that have done more and yes raised the bar for all. If fact I really think you know little about anything. You are opinionated and that is fine but keep your insults to your sorry self.

 

[Aspiring to be]

I wanted to add to my previous post that any delay that I have ever taken after leaving the gate was a result of or caused by ATC. Grow up Cat Yaaap!

 

[varicam]

Aspiring to be:

Well said!

 

[A4Forever]

Aspiring.. Thanks for responding to CAT. You summed it up very well. I think however, that trying to convince him of ANYTHING is akin to urinating into a strong breeze. Gotta be some reason he dislikes 121 guys!

 

[beytzim]

Hey CatYapp, you shot yourself in the foot with your own words:

"and returning high pay with loyalty"

You're referring to employers' paying high salaries for loyalty.

Well, Sh&t man, from where do you think they're trying to stop their pilots from going to?

The Airlines!

To GV and others, you wouldn't be making 200k a year if it wasn't for your predecssors ten or twenty years ago comparing their own pay to their buddies in the airlines.

 

[CatYaaak]

Cat Yaaak your dislike and disrespect for airline pilots is indicative of a bitterness cause by not being able to be one.>>

Funny, I used to be one. Got hired at three of them, in fact. Flew as a Captain at two of them, and was a member of ALPA. Frankly, I don't what the big deal is to being one.

<<Yea I know you never have had a desire to be an airline pilot. Your attempt to classify these pilots as self centered money grabbing pilots is not called for. You know nothing of what you speak; I was an airline pilot and of course know hundreds more.>>

So was I, and I know of what I speak.

<<I have never met an pilot that would leave the gate only to get on the clock.>>

I personally witnessed it too many times. The funniest example I saw was an AA 76 push back into 50+ airplane, 4 hour delay They turned the airplane, boarded on time, and pushed back. After getting in line he finally thought to ask how long the delay was. About 10 minutes after the controller informed him "4 hours and running" (just long enough for him to make the PA and the pax to think aobut it), he radioed back saying they NEEDED (not wanted) to return to the gate...his empty gate. Of course by this time others had also wisely pushed back, taxied up behind him, blocking him in. Twice more he called, to be rebuffed..."no room to turn you around". He ended up declaring an emergency to Ground in order to return to the gate. Yes, an emergency. Apparently, upon hearing the Cpt's PA regarding the 4 hours they would spend crammed in their seats not moving, at least one pax threw his drink at an FA and they were becoming unruly (yes, FAs dearly love it when you put them in this position).

<<Many times the company has asked me to leave when I knew we could not leave but the gate space was needed. I have taxied out in an L-1011 and had the passengers watch almost 2 complete movies prior to departure. I have taxied out at JFK, ORD where the wait was over an hour many times. To wait would not have changed that time unless you maybe waited until the next day. Gate hold at times will help.>>

Routine stuff, some unavoidable that I've had to do myself..., but more reasons why people avoid the airlines if they have an alternative.

<<Wonder what you do if yoiu have a gate hold, do you just tell your owners, well maybe tomorrow will be a better day?>>

No, you inform them of the delays, give them the options, tell them to relax in the FBO while you monitor the radios, then load them up and taxi out when you get your slot. The thing is, it's entirely possible that they might indeed decide to go the next day if the delays are too long. They aren't tied to a ticket or a schedule of someone else's making.

<<I have never heard of anyone pulling the power back so they would not be early.>>

Oh please. most contracts are negotiated at "block" or "block or better" rates over guarantee. Beat the block consistently, and the fear is they will tighten the scheduled block time for the segment.

<<I have been warned about gate space on the ground that would not be available until a certain time and I have pulled back to LRC to save fuel when I knew that all we could do is sit on the ground when we arrived. I have taxied out at TEB and waited for an hour with what I figured was no choice. Yes I could have waited until the delay was reduced to your acceptable level but the average person would rather wait an hour than cancel or wait 8 hours or more. I can assure you that it was not to get on the clock.>>

Hmm..at TEB when there are long delays they will give you a "# for engine start", so the pax can lounge in the FBO's until a few minutes prior.

<<You write as a person bitter toward airline pilots. You can try and deny the benefits that have filtered down to every facet of aviation that were due to what the airlines pilots accomplished.>>

Bitter? Far from it. The day I resigned from my last airline job was one of the happiest days of my professional life. I felt like I was escaping from nursery school. But using the phrase "filtered down to every facet" certainly exposes your egomania.

<<It is like cutting off your nose in spite of your face. You know nothing about the normal contract of the airline pilots. I doubt that you know much about the history of aviation.>>

Yawn. I've voted on contracts, offered input. I know what makes up their foundation. Next however, I'm sure you will inform me that "the history of aviation" can only be found by reading Flying The Line Parts 1 & 2.

<< I am sure you know little about the group of pilots that have done more and yes raised the bar for all. If fact I really think you know little about anything. You are opinionated and that is fine but keep your insults to your sorry self.

Did I insult you? Well, I get the feeling that you feel insulted anytime women don't swoon and men don't salute when you walk by.

 

[CatYaaak]

Aspiring.. Thanks for responding to CAT. You summed it up very well. I think however, that trying to convince him of ANYTHING is akin to urinating into a strong breeze. Gotta be some reason he dislikes 121 guys!

Figures. You've been believing your own self-aggrandizing myths and looking inward for so long you can't fathom anything else besides you being in the center and apex of the aviation universe, so when someone points out a reality that differs from your myth, all you can come up with is to assign some emotional foundation to the opposing view. Lets see..first I was...um..."bitter". Now, I supposedly "dislike 121 guys". Whatever.

Like I said, leaving the 121 world was like escaping from the nursery school. Case in point; witness the petulant responses to my post, which never attacked anyone, but merely pointed out that your attempt to imply that all other aviation professionals ride on your Part 121 coattails is flawed. I guess with the well-developed egos and Labor vs Mngmt chest-puffing around here, finding out your irrelevant IS like an insult.

 

[A4Forever]

Cat.. Help me out here! What I believe is a MYTH and what you believe is REALITY? Why is that? I only flew for 1 airline. (34 years worth) Didn't have the benefit of working for 3 - 121 carriers. Why was that anyway? Mergers? Bankruptcies? My original post was my OPINION. Never quoted anyone, never said it was fact, just my OPINION. You're not change my mind and I won't change yours. Let's move on in life.. PS: Your replies to Aspiring concerning gate holds, having to push from the gate into delays and slowing down so as not to arrive early, demonstrate to me a lack of knowledge, on your part, as to normal 121 operations. AND THATS A FACT! Send a self addressed envelope and I will be happy to explain each of those to you.

 

[CatYaaak]

Hey CatYapp, you shot yourself in the foot with your own words:

"and returning high pay with loyalty"

You're referring to employers' paying high salaries for loyalty.

Well, Sh&t man, from where do you think they're trying to stop their pilots from going to?

The Airlines!

To GV and others, you wouldn't be making 200k a year if it wasn't for your predecssors ten or twenty years ago comparing their own pay to their buddies in the airlines.

"Loyalty" isn't just limited to not leaving the job..it also has to do with security, discretion, and non-diclosure. I also cited as part of the equation risk and asset management, and giving the owners something the airlines can't deliver...efficient and time-saving service. Corporate aircraft don't directly generate revenue, and thus no formula for what the pilot's "cut" should be for generating it.

And a pilot leaving a Fortune 100 company for an airline job is a rare thing. There has never been high turnover in good corporate flight departments, regardless of what the airlines are paying, or if they are hiring. If pilots leave, it's usually for a better corporate job. Going to an airline represents a HUGE cut in pay initially and cumulatively for years to come, sitting at the bottom of a senority list, and a lowering in quality-of-life and benefits. Uptick in corporate salaries has more to do with what another Corporate flight dept is offering in the same city or region, and benefits the pilots enjoy are tied into what that particular company makes available to it's own upper management employees. Raises are usually usually percentage based on longevity. You stay, they keep going up and up.

And your admonition to GV is probably misplaced. Chances are he is the "predecessor" you are referring to. He11, I was doing 15 years ago, and helped raise those salaries. I didn't do what you guess happened.

 

[Aspiring to be]

You flew at 3 Airlines, BS. Maybe a commuter but not an airline and I doubt that. Three airlines? Two as Captain? What is the matter could not pass a check ride. I expect you could not get past probation. I notice you list nothing in your qualifications that any airline that I know of flies. Did the airplanes your airline use weigh less than 12500. I guess you decided to underestimate your flying time so that you would not appear too experienced when you make your phony post.

Your entire post is full of BS. You only want to cause conflict or try to start controversy. You like any form of creditability.

Never heard of anyone getting a clearance to taxi or pushback with a four hour delay that was not advised by ATC. It is my experience that ATC hates for aircraft to taxi out when there is a long delay as there is not place to put the planes. If the ATC delay is four hours everyone would know. When long delays were in effect and gate hold was in effect and company did not need the gate then the passengers were not required to be onboard. I have never seen anyone throttle back to hold block times. If it was done then it was by low class people like you. No one with integrity would do such a thing.

Yes some rare occasions some planes do get caught and have long delays. I have sat with all engines shutdown many a time. I was on Delta when security was breached in Atlanta. After boarding I spent 10 hours on the aircraft trying to go on a 1 ¼ hour flight. I have been at Teb, (AA A-300 crashed leaving JFK) and sat with indefinite delays.

I sat in Teb and no departures North, South or West for over 4 hours due to weather. Airlines were departing EWR, LGA, JFK, heading in all directions. Your type only wants to cause trouble. I have flown many different airplanes, from small SE to the L-1011. I have a type in several small jets. Flying a 1011 is different from say a Lear but the biggest thing is the few jerks like you that could not make it with the airlines that can only badmouth good people. No, some people might not want to go the airline route; some have not have the chance and then those like you that could not cut it. When I read your BS it makes me want to puke to think that we have pilots that think like you. Thank God there are not many with your attitude.

No one has ever denied that private aircraft are more convenient. If the average man could afford a small jet I am sure that most would prefer them over an airline flying from a large airport when they have a small airport next door. The advantage of small aircraft is that they can depart when the owner wants to and go and come from many more airports. The airplanes can conform to the owners schedule and not the other way around. It is no doubt that it is easier to manage 8 people versus 3 or 4 hundred. It is no doubt that it is easier to fly a Lear, etc than an L-1011. I am not saying that it takes a better pilot; I am just saying that there is much more that can and does go wrong and many more things to do.

You can preach your hatred and ignore the history and the contribution of the airline pilots but you are only showing how little class and knowledge you really have. Better keep your job if you have one as I expect you have a hard time holding a job very long. Like I said you need to grow up.

 

[FatesPawn]

You flew at 3 Airlines, BS. Maybe a commuter but not an airline and I doubt that. Three airlines? Two as Captain? What is the matter could not pass a check ride. I expect you could not get past probation. I notice you list nothing in your qualifications that any airline that I know of flies.

You better think before you post next time. He flew the Beech 1900 as well as the Canadair Regional Jet. I'd say his career progression is VERY believable... BE-20 Captain... jumps ship to go to a respectable regional... CL-65 Captain... leaves for a major airline job where he gets furloughed. There you have it!

BTW, I have flown at 2, 121 Airlines (one as a Captain) and 2, 135 operators (both as Captain) and a Fractional. I'm 30. Not too difficult to believe.

PS. Regionals (or commuters as you put it) absolutely are airlines. It is harder to pass a checkride at many regionals then some Global carriers - first hand knowledge

 

[CatYaaak]

Cat.. Help me out here! What I believe is a MYTH and what you believe is REALITY? Why is that? I only flew for 1 airline. (34 years worth) Didn't have the benefit of working for 3 - 121 carriers. Why was that anyway? Mergers? Bankruptcies? My original post was my OPINION. Never quoted anyone, never said it was fact, just my OPINION. You're not change my mind and I won't change yours. Let's move on in life.. PS: Your replies to Aspiring concerning gate holds, having to push from the gate into delays and slowing down so as not to arrive early, demonstrate to me a lack of knowledge, on your part, as to normal 121 operations. AND THATS A FACT! Send a self addressed envelope and I will be happy to explain each of those to you.

It's certainly comes as no suprise that you flew for 1 Part 121 carrier for 34 years. Sounds like a nice gravy-train run for a career, and that in itself guarantees I won't change your opinion. As for your question regarding me.. 3 Part 121 airlines over 5 years - 1st one merged into 2nd, then furloughed. Hired by 3rd. Recalled by 2nd (that really was 1st) while working for 3rd, but resigned from both 2nd and 3rd when the opportunity arose to return to Corporate flying where you're treated like an adult and where there's much less whining.

In my 12 years of corporate flying (before and after my 121 experience), not once as an FO, captain or Chief Pilot did I ever negotiate salary with my company based on what 121 pilots were being paid somewhere "out there". What you were doing wherever you were simply had no relevance. I never heard that my peers did either. What's to compare? Different aircraft, different missions, different lifestyle, different pay structure, and a completely different reason for existence in the first place.

There's an industry standard based on years of corporate flight departments upgrading the value of equipment, taking on a more prominant role in company affairs as airline service deteriorates, competing for pilots with other flight departments, and demanding a standard of living based on where they live. That last fact plays a huge role in the corporate world, but is absolutely unknown in the 121 world.

I notice that a lot of 121-only pilots "knowingly" declare thow Part 91 salaries are derived. I'd like to know how many of them have actually sat in the CEO's office and negotiated the salary for themselves or their pilots in the Part 91 world? Telling the boss that you deserve $X-amount because "United 72 captains make $$$ and therefore that's what I want" is about as silly as walking into the boardroom and declaring "We want $X-amount or we will strike". Yeah right. Tell me, what do you think your OPINION of what drives salary levels in Part 91 corporate flight departments is worth, given your experience with working in them?

P.S. Oh, and IT'S A FACT that I personally witnessed (more than once) all those incidents I cited to Aspiring while engaged in "normal" 121 ops...that is, out of O'hare, LGA, DCA, LAX, EWR, etc. etc. I'm not referring to the unavoidable hassles that come with the insanity and inanity of hub and spoke airline ops, I'm talking about incidents where there has been a choice.

I can show you threads on this website where guys are bragging, whooping and electronically high-5ing each other because theyonly worked, say, 8 hours for their 75-hour guarantee, or flew 3 trips in 2 months by virtue of creative bidding, bypassing upgrade, etc. "The least amount of work for the greatest pay", I saw one write, with agreement all around. Nice attitude, especially when practically every airline is hemhorraging money (oh yea it's all managements fault). If you think I'm somehow besmirching reputations by relating things I've seen that don't fit the image of the "preserving the profession" mantra, then perhaps you should go reign in some of your peers.

 

[beytzim]

Hey CatYaak, I agree with you that most 121 guys want to "fly the least, and make the most". However, I would bet that most 135/91 guys would do the same if they had the chance. We're all the same.

To Aspiring to be: You've been on the money up until you said "No doubt flying a Lear is easier than an L10-11" You were kidding, right? If you weren't, you obviously haven't flown 20-series Lears. I can go on forever on how many gotchas are in those airplanes that will ruin your whole day! And there are plently of Lear 25/35/36s that fly out of florida in the middle of the night on air-ambulance flights to South America with 30 minutes notice. Try to do that without Dispatch holding your hand, tough guy!