NetJet is gonna EXPLODE!

[boxcar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Nonsense

Sorry, Boxboy. I usually don't rub guys the wrong way. OK big boy, what 250,000 pound jet are you flying for NetJets?

SkyGirl

StyGirl, are you saying you usually rub guys the right way?

 

[CatYaaak]

CatYaaak

<<No disagreement with your points. But, shouldn't your message be directed toward management rather than pilots? The pilots aren't looking for a windfall, just a wage structure that's somewhere close to industry standard....>>

No, I'm directing it towards the pilots, the ones who would actually strike and PO the ones who are footing the bill. And just how do you define "industry standard", when NetJets basically invented and defined the fractional industry in the first place? Whatever NetJets pilots earn IS the industry standard.

However, if by "wage structure" you are attempting to co-opt the higher-wage industry standard of corporate flight department pilots (a wage scale established over many years without unions, I might add) just because fractional pilots fly similar aircraft, then you are missing an important part of the equation from the standpoint of those on corporate boards who pay those salaries and who ride on those airplanes; corporate pilots don't go (or threaten to go) on strike, and their loyalties ride with owners sitting in the back as long as they keep working for them, not with a third party or a union.

What you say about the wages being low may be true unfortunately, but I'm just pointing out the reality of what a corporate aircraft owner (or fractional pseudo-owner), expects for the big bucks they are shelling out. So anyway, which "wage structure" and "industry standard" are you referring to? Fractional? Corporate? Or some kind of amalgamation of them both? The fact is, pay scales in the corporate world have a lot to do with the fact that a company knows that the people sitting up front driving the airplane are THEIR pilots and part of their own corporate structure.

<<If it takes a strike to get the company's attention, so be it. If the company chooses to fold, scale back, or hire replacement workers, (good luck getting the Teamster mechanics to fix the aircraft) so be it. After the dust settles, life will go on.

>>

Well, again that's the airline mentality at work...."blame management"...yada yada. "We'll burn the village in order to save it"..more yada yada. I still say it's a misplaced mentality in the business aviation sector. And my guess is burn it you indeed will if there is a prolonged strike that affects the contract-signing owners. They are primarily well-heeled business travelers who fled the now-burning airline industry because airline hassles and inconvenience weren't worth those $2,000 walk-up tickets. They'll flee fractionals too if given the same reason because they have options. The airlines are now banking on the $59 ticket, flip flop crowd to keep them afloat, but unlike them, fractionals have NO similar fall-back customer base to tap into.

But I see by your last statement that you don't really care if the company goes bye-bye, and that you think everyone will be just fine and even happy doing other things besides pursuing their chosen profession. I have do doubt that every charter operator and corporate flight department manager is crossing their fingers, hoping you DO strike, PO your "owners", and cast them adrift. There would no doubt be a healthy chorus of "I told you so"s, followed by even higher wage scales in the corporate world.

 

[FL450]

Naaaaaaaaaaaaa. Way off base. The Owners will just break their contracts and walk? Where are they going to flock to? Do you really believe NetJets is going to ask the Owners to "be patient, we have a little labor problem"? The Owners are going to buy that? I doubt it.

If it gets to a strike, there will be a meltdown of the telephone system in Omaha. I would guestimate 24-48 hours, max. NetJets has multi-million dollar contractual obligations that cannot be covered with NJI, NJM or our Vendors............combined. Then what? Who flies the planes? What Union will service them? Back to the table in a flash. But that's all a long, long way off.

When we have to worry that being compensated fairly will bankrupt the second richest man in the world...............that will be the least of our problems!

 

[mike]

Did I miss something....

When you say "who would service" the airplanes I assume you mean that Garrett, Duncan, Gulfstream, CFS, etc. I don't know if all of them are union. If they are union shops, what control do the mechanics have over acceptance of an aircraft for service?

 

[BigFlyr]

Re: Re: Nonsense

Gotta waive the BS flag here! GEXDriver, I agree with almost everything you said about pay for responsibility... When you brought "size" into the argument you fell off your soapbox. It is much easier to fly large transport category aircraft than it is to OPERATE small jets/turboprops/piston twins.

All airplanes are designed to be operated by pilots with just average skills. Some require more skill and/or more practice to become proficient than others. Size has nothing to do with it, but large transport category aircraft do have more complex operating systems than say a typical small business jet. What pilots get paid to fly is typically based on the revenue that airplane is capable of producing, nothing more.

 

[FL450]

Mainly referring to work done in CMH, which is substantial. As to what other Union mechanics would work on striking Union aircraft.........I don't know. How close knit are Teamsters with other Unions and shops that would choose to work on them........that's another story.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

netjets gonna bankrupt Warren Buffett????

jesus, you really have the United Airlines mentality...

rememeber, this is business.....you will be liquidated and sold before you can say "unemployment"

Get a grip, you are a limo driver like the rest of us, you dont do anything special.

 

[100LL... Again!]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once can argue that pilots should get paid in direct relation to how much money their respective aircraft brings. Since Falcon monthly management fees are higher than Ultra's MMF's, so should their pilots' pay be.

However, since all company revenues go in one pot and disembursed to pilots irrelative to the aircraft type, pilot pay-by-weight is only academic and important to those pilots with egos' leading the way.

The point: Paying pilots by aircraft type/weight is only to satisfy pilots' own egos and insecurities. It is in the best interest of all aviation companies to pay by seniority, period. The Majors have proven over and over again how to run something into the ground. Paying-by-weight is one thing we should learn from them NOT to do.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doggone! Someone else who gets it!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the dumbest thing I ever heard come from a pilot's mouth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And a VERY intelligent, unemotional rebuttal from th other camp.
HA!



When domestic flying is considered, pay-by-weight is a very crude method. And who really cares how much revenue the aircraft produces? The pilot does very little differently to fly a larger aircraft than a smaller one. A pay differential may be in order if a certain aircraft does take substantially more skill to pilot. Most of the required skills do not vary from a/c to a/c.

This is true especially in a fleet operation where the pilots have the same dispatch support for domestic operations.

The aircraft produces revenue because of the OPERATOR, not the pilot. The pilot is an employee that provides skilled labor and does as the company directs. The pilot should be well compensated, don't get me wrong. They should be compensated because they can bring ANY aircraft safely to it's destination. The amount of compensation should be based on how good a pilot the company wants. A really good CJ pilot is worth two or three half-a--ed Hawker pilots.

Remember, it is really ONLY the non-flying public that believes the myth that a larger aircraft takes more skill to fly. I'm too tired of this BS to even list all the reasons, because the 'true believers' do not want to acknowledge the truth. Pay-by-size has more to do with tradition than it does with reality.

This seems to be much more true in the corporate world than in the airline biz. I can't ever remember seeing two airline pilots (other than some rookies) get into a p----ing match over aircraft size.

Overseas ops have more responsibility associated with them and should be compensated accordingly. Regardless of size.



The CEO is just as dead in a Citation as a GV if the pilot is not doing their job. There ya go - pay 'em according to CEO value!


Please try to keep all flames logical and unemotional. Thanks.

 

[FL450]

"netjets gonna bankrupt Warren Buffett????

jesus, you really have the United Airlines mentality...

rememeber, this is business.....you will be liquidated and sold before you can say "unemployment"

Get a grip, you are a limo driver like the rest of us, you dont do anything special."

Ha ha ha ha ha. I can only laugh when I read crap like that and be thankful you're NOT part of our seniority list. The point was, we will NOT bankrupt Buffett, as someone else compared us to United. Nor will it get to a strike situation. Those cards are already face up on the table.

We're asking fare wage and work rules for what we do. It's about pride in our work and our worth, not about being "special". Remember, we were never going to make it this far, according to all the naysayers of the fractional concept. You simply attempt to add fuel to a fire that's already been pissed out.

 

[FracPilot]

Pilot pay

Pay is determined, at most companies, by potential income created by the aircraft and responsibility. Should a Captain on an airplane with 300 people be paid more than a Captain on an airplane with 150 people? You bet. More responsibility. Does a high level CEO get paid more than a factory floor supervisor? Why? Responsibility.

Bigger/more expensive airplane + more pax = more money. Should a Captain on a 300 pax airplane make twice as much as a Captain on a 150 pax airplane? In my opinion, no. There should be a pay difference, but not more than 15-20% difference between the two assuming same time in service.