NetJet is gonna EXPLODE!

[FatesPawn]

Re: Re: Re: Nonsense

It is not easier to fly small aircraft than large complex aircraft. That is an absurd statement to make.
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You'll have to re-read my post. I never said that... but you're right, it would be an absurd statement - as would be the opposite. But MANIPULATING the controls of a Large Transport Category aircraft is not difficult. Flying a Learjet to ASE is. Of course, flying a GIII into ASE would be tough too. It all comes back to the particular operation.

Everything is more critical in a large jet.
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No, it is not. Everything is equally as critical. Size is relative. When I flew a 727, I'm sure it was much easier to land in LGA than it was land a small GIII in ASE circling at night... What you don't seem to understand is that difficulty lies in the operation at hand, not the size of the aircraft.

Ask the Sprint pilots who went off the end of the runway in their Global at Eagle last week if they think their Global is easier to fly than the smaller G-IV's they had been taking into Vail for years.
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I have no idea what happened in the Global accident in Vail. I won't play armchair quarterback either. You seem to assume that because the airplane is bigger, it was harder to land. Do you think their inexperience with the airplane came into play? I think it is a bit premature to assume that because a "big plane" has an accident, it is because the pilots were used to flying a tiny little GIV.

If you could talk to the Pilots of Delta 191, I wonder what they would say. The Learjet that landed just seconds ahead of them at DFW had no problems because he didn't have to deal with the large jet problems of inertia, large fan spool times and available excess thrust.
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You'll have to go study up on that accident. I don't think Fan-spool is an issue if you don't follow proper windshear recovery procedures. Obviously, they got behind THEIR powercurve and didn't take appropriate recovery steps. I'm not judging the dead. I hope we can all learn from their mistakes. We've all screwed things up in our careers but not all of us have paid the ultimate price. Certainly there are many other factors that come in to play when flying larger transport category aircraft, but it all comes back to energy management.

On the same note, I'd rather fly an MD11 through a 757's wake than a Learjet.

In no case do I think flying skills are irrevelant. I think such a flippant attitude about your profession will only earn you an NTSB report.
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Right back at you. Nice Flippant remark. If you take your "small jets are easy to fly" attitude into a light-jet cockpit, I'll be happy to stay 40 miles in trail of you.

I see you say you are a Learjet pilot, what automation does the Lear 45 lack?
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LEARJET pilot that is. No 45 or 60 thank you.

How small an airport are you talking about? The Boeing 727 was designed to go into LaGuardia when it was only 5000 feet long.
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Geez, that was about 3 "stretches" ago. A 190K B727 is not a short field airplane. I've used 10,000' of a 10,001' runway to take off with 3 motors turning at max gross on a hot day. I've also used 5000' of a 5001' runway with a Lear 35... you suck up an equal amount of seat cushion regardless of the size of the airplane.

All approaches meet the same TERPS requirements. It may be just me, but I think I had a far easier time going from Boston to Carlsbad to Aspen and back to the Northeast than I did on my last international flight to Athens, Nairobi, Singapore, Tokyo, Anchorage and then home.
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I agree... but was it harder to manipulate the controls? Was it harder to FLY the aircraft? The decision-making was certainly different... but did you flare to land? The hand-eye coordination of flying an aircraft is different for each type, but it doesn't take more skill to fly a B727 than a Lear 35 - it's just a different set of considerations.

 

[beytzim]

To GexDriver:
I always get a kick out of flying with an ex-121 pilot. The younger guys who are ex-commuter can adapt fairly quickly, but the frac/charter world really shakes them up.

The worst guys are the retired 121 guys who are used to flying 747s across the pond. Those guys are blown away on how difficult our job is. These guys were making lots of dough, flying 10 days a month, and flying into the same routes over and over again - making it a breeze. Over here, they're really out of their comfy element. Many of them resign fairly quickly as they can't take the extra stress etc. You can argue with that, but it's fact.

Separately, in regards to pay by weight. Someone gave an example of a CEO making more money than a floor supervisor. Ok, should an FBO fueler get paid more when they fuel a GV vs. an Ultra. Of course, after all, he's putting 2000 gallons in the GV versus 400 in the Ultra. He's producing more revenue, right? And, fueling a GV takes more responsibility as its got SPR and if you damage it, it costs a lot more to fix.....

How about the Learjet 36 crew that fly round-the-world trips, Pacific, Atlantic, you name it, versus the G4 crew that never fly Int'l, but simply coast to coast. They are out there.

Further, what about the GIV pilot who flies 7 days a month for a total of 20 "Revenue hours" compared to the Hawker guy who flies 21 days a month and flies 60 revenue hours. (Standard G4 rate per hour is approx $5000 vs. a Hawker of $2500). In that scenario the Hawker pilot produced significantly more revenue!!

Of course, the pax of a GV are certainly worth more than a pax of a mere Ultra. Right?

Of course, I always remember the comment of my buddy who I tried to convince to fly corporate jets: "Dude, the only corporate jet I would ever fly is the GV or the BBJ, and even that is too small" Right. All corporate jets are in the same category: Small Jets. Believe it. A GV or F2000 are small jets, accept it.

Hey Gex or G200, let's see if you can respond with something intelligent for once, rather than insult.

 

[GEXDriver]

Pay for responsibility

It is apparent that no one is going to change anybody's mind here. My flight department pays based on the value of the largest aircraft you are flying, the complexity of the flight (i.e. more pay for international captains over domestic), and seniority. Aircraft upgrades to larger aircraft occur with seniority. I think our compensation packages accurately reflect what we do: a junior Hawker captain will make just under a 100K, a senior Global captain earns just under 200k.

 

[beytzim]

are you hiring?

 

[A4Forever]

"The worst guys are the retired 121 guys who are used to flying 747s across the pond. Those guys are blown away on how difficult our job is. These guys were making lots of dough, flying 10 days a month, and flying into the same routes over and over again - making it a breeze. Over here, they're really out of their comfy element. Many of them resign fairly quickly as they can't take the extra stress etc. You can argue with that, but it's fact."

Beytzim..I am one of those retired 121 guys who flew 747s across the pond. I am not "Blown Away" at how hard the frax job is, in fact I enjoy it! As far as flying the same routes over and over, a 15:30 hr flight from ORD to HKG is anything a breeze. I could bore you with everything that has gone wrong on that flight but I won't. As far as being out of my comfort element, I upgraded with 38 hrs in the Excel and have even landed on a 4000' runway at NIGHT! Sure, retired guys resign more often than 20-50 year olds. Most of our careers will be 2-6 yrs long. Gotta save a little time for golf. I have gained a new respect for the job that the Frax do but beleive me, my retired friends and I can do that job!

 

[SkyGirl]

I believe it....

But I doubt they'll cross a picket line to do it....

You're probably right, but I bet there are a lot of out of work Cessna, Hawker and Falcon pilots that would like to have your jobs.

SkyGirl

 

[HPuck]

Sorry beytzim, I have to agree with A4 on this one. There is much more to international overwater flight than meets the eye. Yep, all the automation has made it easier, but a 12 to 15 hours leg is nothing to sneeze at when you are considering fuel requirments, weather enroute, destination, eng failure or rapid depress before or after ETP, diplomatic clearances (if flying military), hazmat clearances.....blah, blah, blah, you get the point. Not that it is as busy as an average day at the fracs, just a different type of flying with different headaches. And believe me, flying over here in the good ol' US of A with our controllers makes life much easier (go to Egypt some time- yikes!!). Frac flying is nothing special, just different.

 

[Lrjet55]

This post represents the worst problem in the aviation industry. Huge egos! Sad, sad, sad.

 

[HPuck]

Are you referring to my post lrjet22?

 

[boxcar]

The parent company has the assets to survive almost anything and can throw enough money around to make any plan eventually work. However, of all the possible scenarios following a pilot strike, hiring replacement pilots is the least likely, IHMO.

First, assuming adequate numbers of replacement pilots could be enticed to cross picket lines, it would take about three months to hire, train, and launch the first of them. (Potential replacement pilots need to remember that strikes are settled sooner or later in almost every case. Replacement folks end up back on the street with a big "S" permanently affixed to their forehead.)

Second, mechanics and flight attendants are also Teamsters and would certainly honor picket lines. The company would need to hire and train replacements for them.

Third, it's likely that parts and fuel would be in short supply, at least in Columbus, as union drivers would refuse to cross picket lines to make deliveries.

Fourth, almost all management pilots hold seniority numbers. While there's not enough of them to make much difference, it would be interesting to see the choices made.

I suspect a strike would turn out in one of three ways:

1. A quick settlement
2. Flying a few flights with management crews and selling off as many flights as possible to Part 135 operators until settlement.
3. Selling contracts to existing frax operators and shutting down the company.