NetJet is gonna EXPLODE!

[Grim Reaper]

This is from AIN. I do not normally read the rag but a bud at NJA told me 'bout this one.

There’s no doubt that the economic downturn has hurt sales of both new and used aircraft throughout the industry. (General Aviation Manufacturers Association figures for the first nine months of 2002 show new business jet sales down 12 percent and turboprop sales down 40 percent.)

This has hurt the fractionals–some more than others–because sales of new airplane shares have always accounted for most of their revenue.

The operational side of the business (flight hours and monthly management fees) has not been nearly as profitable as new share sales. In fact, for most frax providers, according to Riegel, it has not been profitable at all. “Before about 18 months ago,” he said, “volume sales of aircraft up front were offsetting losses from operations. Now they’re not.”

 

[mike]

I wonder...

I wonder if anyone out there has crunched the numbers on a mid-size airplane's monthly fee at any fractional operation. My first reaction to the AIN article was doubt, but then I thought about my fixed cost increases over the last two years. Here are a few to ponder: insurance 97%, training 17%, salaries 10%, health care 42%, utilities 22%, airport property lease rates 9%. The list goes on.

So, here is my point. A fractional can charge $50,000 per month to manage a new airplane with low maintenance cost and run red ink.

Be safe.

 

[750driver]

Do the math... There is NO way a 25% raise will be accepted. We WILL attain a Professional salary on THIS contract.

Gunfyter,

I wish you all the best in your negotiations, but this is undoubtedly one of the worst times to be negotiating in this industry. Having operational flying experience (CE750 vendor ops) in the Netjets environment, I can say say this from first hand experience. I don't feel the pilots are in a position of power, based on current economic conditions. Tread very carefully and think about all the possible outcomes before acting. The unemployment line is not a fun place to be ....

Regards,
750

 

[dogg]

Hope you guys get some kind of a raise. A strike would suck. If it does happen though it will not be under the protections provided by the Railway Labor Act. NetJets does not meet any of the criteria spelled out in the RLA so it will be more along the line of a traditional teamsters strike.. Good luck with that.............

 

[Mach92]

Its 100% or im off to Law school !!!!! Hell id settle for NBAA wages for a X

 

[banned username 2]

Its 100% or im off to Law school !!!!!

Remember these handy phrases:

"I object!"

"Your honor, my I approach the bench?"

"I am through with this witness"

"The Defense rests"

Sorry, I couldn't resist... I truely wish the best for all the NJA guys... but I think some of your have highly unrealistic expectations of what you are going to get out of this deal...

Good luck to all, and please accept the above a a bit of humor... which is the only intent it had...

 

[Grim Reaper]

NBAA wages are an average my man. That means there are some really high guys and some way low guys.

Best of luck.

 

[Mach92]

Falcon Capt : I accept the humor Hey we have to shoot high at NJA. Were so low I could make more $$ at McDonalds. Whats really sad is our owners (or at least the ones I talk to if they bring it up) think we make 100-200K to fly them. They think that because of what there being charged by NETJETS in management fees. Someone is makeing out and at the moment it sure isnt the pilot group. I just flew a couple whos net worth is 14 BILLION. He owns a company, I wont mention here but its the largest world wide for what they do. We can debate all night long what we all think were worth. So I let you tell me what is a Citation X capt worth? We at netjets(on the X) fly to Europe, Hawaii, Central America, Mexico and lets not forget every mountain airport possible in the lower US. I find it funny that lots of people who post here slam us on our pay and what we need. I made more money tossing bags for UAL in 1989 then I do now flying a 20 million dollar jet.

 

[V1RT8]

I am curious. All CS captains start at $64k. They can easily do $6k in overtime. This means a first year Captain at CS will make ~ $70K. This would be reflective in the CJ, Bravo, or Excel.

I am aware that the pay at NJA based on salary alone is ridiculously low. It seems however, that you have a rather convuluted system to account for overtime and other pay. Tell me; With normal amounts of overtime, what will an Excel captain earn in a given twelve month period.

I, for one, certainly hope that you guys at least end up at current industry standards. It is sad that they have taken advantage as long as they seem to have.

 

[Duke of Ale]

To V1RT8:

I am a 3rd yr X Capt and I grossed 51K in 2002. I have no control of overtime. And now the company is very stingy with extended days. I am on the 7/7 and not about to work 8 days in a row. Of course on the Ten, I spend a lot of time in the service center! A 4th yr Capt makes 4833/month by the way so a 100% pay increase is not out of the question.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

A THREE YEAR CITATION X PIC MAKING 51,000 dollars?????

jesus thats criminal----but you know what?, did you not know the pay scales when you were hired and signed that "training contract"??? You did....you just had a big hard-on to fly a "new jet". Wore off quick I guess.

Its 100X harder to negotiate a raise AFTER you accept a wage.
Wages like that bring down the industry for all of us, thanks.

I really hope you get serious raises or walk out (yeah right)
YOU deserve your raise. WE deserve your raise.

Good Luck!

 

[FracPilot]

Pay

The pay rates at NJA are undoubtedly very low, and always have been. I don't see a 100% raise in the future, however. Do you really think that management will agree to double the pay rates, to the tune of roughly 85 to 100 million a year, in this economy?

Do you guys deserve it? Hell yes. You have been severely underpaid for years. As a DA50 PIC, I make approximately 80k a year base salary, with overtime days running about $600 a day. I have done two overtime days in the past year, and neither were because I agreed to do overtime but because the company could not get me home by the end of my last day due to unforseen delays. I have been asked to do overtime many times, but I value my time with my family too much for that.

I don't see a strike happening at NJA even if a 25% raise is all that is offered. Sure, you guys say you will strike - but those that will are, IMO, a very small percentage. I do not believe that a strike vote would pass. If it did, it WOULD cripple the company and force much sell off. EJM and EJI would pick up some of the slack - don't expect them to strike in sympathy - but not nearly even half I would assume. What would the long term effects of a strike be? Even if it only lasted a few days, that would mean massive sell off costs(probably 3-5 million per day), undoubtedly MANY unhappy owners(most of whom will not be at all sympathetic to your plight), and many cancelled flights do to the lack of charter availability for such a demand. Sounds like cutting of your nose to spite your face to me.

 

[leardvr]

I figured it out

I was just crunching some numbers. A 2nd year Capt @ NJA is making 3318/mo. or 39816/yr. I think your per diem is about 20/day or 3650/yr on the 7/7. Plus there is tip money you can pocket, what could that be 600/yr

39816
3650
600
----------
44066/yr.

Oh here it comes, you can't count the per diam. Why not you guys are fed like kings on the road. If you spend you per diam at the bar or strip club on lay overs then that's your problem. PS that's "tax free" money so it's fair market value is more like 4400, which brings you up to 44816/yr.

That's a second year guy. I'm sorry this is not an airline. And you DON'T work as hard as most Corp. pilots. Ya you fly more hours and legs, but that the easy part. You don't do your own flight planning, catering, hotels, rentals (for crew and PAX) you don't wash airplanes when your home. You don't come in to help MX, you very rarly have to scrub the interior of the A/C. You don't maintain million doller budgets, and pilots that complain everytime they are or aren't scheduled to fly. You don't even work as hard as most 135 guys.

Pro-Pilot July 2001
AVG CAPT. CE560XL'ish A/C 66000/yr(CORP)
AVG CAPT. same a/c at a charter comp. 64000/yr

So there you have it, YES you are paid less then the industry average. A 25% raise on 44000 gives you 55000, your worth that. The 100% raise is 88000 FOR a 2nd year guy; I don't think so.

One more question, I live in CMH and I know ALOT of you guys. With your pay and williness to walk why are you building 250-350,000 homes? Maybe those are the 5 year guys looking for 100% of $75734.

I always told my wife that I would be sucessful (as a pilot) when I could support my family flying. I was doing that when I was flight instructing making 24000/yr.

Love all you guys, God bless you and fly safe. Remember you'll spend what you make. What matters is how you spend it.

 

[V1RT8]

Duke,

You guys really are being hosed. NJA is the largest operator of corporate aircraft in the world. The industry average for salary and benefits will necessarily follow. I wish you guys good luck.

 

[Grim Reaper]

The owners have a get out of contract free card. If NJA were to strike, that would give many owners the oppurtunity they have been looking for. Walk away without penalty and take their business else where.

I also think the number of NJA guys willing to walk away is in the very vocal minority.

For the guy thinking of law school, my plumber was once a lawyer. With American law schools cranking out 120,000 new lawyers per year, good luck.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Did that guy say Netjets guys dont work hard?????

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**!! I think you guys work harder than ANY corporate pilots I know....

Oh, and coming in to wash planes, help with mx, etc.....is NOT normal "corporate" job responsilbilites. Thats rat-$hit charter job responsibilities. Huge difference. Good corporate departments have people who dispatch, file Intl' flight plans, trip plan, do hotels, catering, transportation, etc.....

Nobody works harder than Netjets guys.....airlining around, 7 leg days, minumum rest, phone calls at the hotel to dead head to a new trip.....sounds like an airline job without the airline pay....

 

[Duke of Ale]

G-200

Yes, I knew what the pay scale was but I had no idea that in relation to the rest of general aviation that it was that low. No excuse though. Look at my profile and you can figure out that I wasn't looking to fly the "fast jet". I couldn't continue doing what I was doing. I had to call in "Old". Then I just couldn't stay home so I got a job that didn't require commuting or moving. I live 14 miles from a Netjets gateway. That was a deciding factor. But out of the almost 2000 pilots at Netjets, I am in the minority. I really don't need the money but I am not going to accept a sub-standard contract either. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
The main reason for my post was to just put out some actual numbers for everyone to see.
I didn't sign a training contract by the way. The class after me was when that started.

 

[Grim Reaper]

Is the contract you are working under expired or only amenable?

 

[Cliff]

Re: Re: NetJet is gonna EXPLODE!

Not that I don't think the NJA pilots deserves a decent sized raise... but... let me ask you this....

Why should NJA increase the pilot pay by some huge amount? This when there are thousands of pilots available to work who are unemployed? Where are NJA pilots going to go if they don't get their huge raise? UAL??? AA??? DAL??? NWA??? I don't think so.... unfortunately in times like this the company has you guys by the short and curlys... You have no where to run off to....

The power of positive thinking...

Flying the aircraft is only 3% of the job here at NJA... The other 97% (which the other company's can't figure out) is "SERVICE".. Additionally; every pilot here realizes that we fly "OWNERS" not passergers on our aircraft and we treat them as such.. Meaning?? If needed I'll escort an "OWNER" to her destination who for the first time in her life is in New York city alone at night and is forced to take a taxi vs a limo.. Has this been done by company pilots? Yes, more than once! You may ask what about the other legs the crew has to fly?? They give them to another crew/aircraft... See we provide "SERVICE" one owner at a time... We don't neglect one owner for another...

FLYING the aircraft is the easy part... Pilots are not hired to fly an aircraft but for the commitment to a service standard..

Don't apply to NJA because you have a bad attitude for the company and the type of work we do here.. You would only degrade our company's value...

Cliff

 

[beytzim]

Hey LearDvr, bite me! Just be happy some of us don't know who you are. You're the kind of person that most of us hate flying with. Quite frankly, you're a disgrace to all Lear and Sabre pilots out there.

It's people like you who ruin this industry we are in. If you had a chance, you would SCAB, no doubt. You're a backstabber, period.

I take personal insult for your comments. Many of us at the frax work way harder than you and your shi%%y charter companies.

To FalconDriver: You're usually on the ball. In fact, most of the time, you are right on. Not this time. You mentioned your pay in a previous post as being close to 200k. How dare you insult and condescend us in stating that a 25% increase should suffice!

To all the critics and naysayers: The majority of NJA pilots have less than 3 years seniority. The previous contract ended a year and half ago. Therefore, most of us expected the new contract to be done a long time ago - it's just taking a little longer than expected. The money is there, and we WILL get those so-called "absurd" pay raises. The rest of you can then kiss our A$$eS.


Pride