NetJet is gonna EXPLODE!

[banned username 2]

To FalconDriver: You're usually on the ball. In fact, most of the time, you are right on. Not this time. You mentioned your pay in a previous post as being close to 200k. How dare you insult and condescend us in stating that a 25% increase should suffice!

Ok,

I looked back and "FalconDriver" didn't post anything in this thread so I assume this was directed at me....

First off I have NEVER said my pay was anywhere near $200k, because it isn't... I have also said I think you guys deserve much more than you are getting, BUT I wouldn't expect a lot in this economy and with the way the Pilot "Supply and Demand" curve is severely leaning against us.... I am trying to have a realistc view of what is being played out here...

If "FalconDriver" did in fact post something here and delete it before I saw it, then please disregard this post...

I only wish I made $200k... Geez, even $150k would be fantastic...

 

[mike]

Duh, gee whiz

Did not United have a union. How about TWA, Pan AM, the steel workers in the 90's. Please don't count on a union to solve your problems.

Do you have a value to the Company?

What is the fair market value of your services?

Do you like your job?

If your employer will not pay the fair market value, are you willing to change employers/careers?

I do not think that 40 some grand is the market value for a Citation X caption. I pay Hawker co-pilots alot more. If you like to fly, consider looking for another employer. If you think it is a pain, consider change careers.

Fly safe.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

gunfyter,

I hope you get a good raise, you guys work too hard for that crappy pay.....

but...you seem very very unhappy....did you not look at the payscales when you took the job offer??? Why did you go to work there?

Many of us find it pretty funny when we hear all the Netjets guys banking on the "coming contract" year after year.......

Again, I hope for our industrys sake you guys get a raise, its embarrasing for all of us - but the notion that everyones is gonna walk out if the 100% pay raise isnt there is downright laughable......nobody gonna walk anywhere except to the unemployment office. Pilots always think they are irreplaceable, thats a joke.

Best of Luck

 

[2000flyer]

A little off the NJA topic

Oh, and coming in to wash planes, help with mx, etc.....is NOT normal "corporate" job responsilbilites. Thats rat-$hit charter job responsibilities. Huge difference. Good corporate departments have people who dispatch, file Intl' flight plans, trip plan, do hotels, catering, transportation, etc.....

G200, Normally I'll tend to agree with your posts, but this above paragraph I'll take exception to.

I work five days a week, flying or not. That includes helping with MX, washing planes, cleaning hangar/office. It's called doing what needs to be done. While I would enjoy a job where I fly and go home awaiting my next trip, honestly, I don't mind going into work daily. The only time it becomes frustrating is when the work is done and we're just killing time.

I don't have a problem filing my flight plans. I actually enjoy international planning. I make my own hotel reservations. I take care of my passengers transportation needs.

Because my department doesn't have "dispatch" doesn't mean we're not a good corporate department. The three senior guys have a combined 63 years with this company! Add in the two junior guys and this number goes to 74 years. The most junior has been here going on five years. The company has operated airplanes for nearly 50 years. I'd bet we have better job security than many traditional flight departments out there. You don't have to work for a Fortune 500 company to have a great job, fly great equipment and have a great quality of life.

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[Gulfstream 200]

2000flyer

I do apologize, what I said does not apply to all I know. - Just to many....I have enojoyed the benefits of very small operations also...

but sorry I aint washing planes...I will make the call to the cleaners, etc...but no scrubbing the 20mil dollar jet.

I will have the FBO vacuum it and tip 20$ (and expense it) But I aint scrubbing the carpet on the 20mil dollar jet...

really, I dont have a bad attitude, just dont think pilots should have to do that $hit.....on a twin cessna or something, yeah sure.....but on a DA2000??? I think they can afford a cleaning service....if not....sit in filth!

Just an opinion and no more!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I truly hope you guys are the exception to the golden rule of "Get your salary coming in the door or never get it"....
like I said, I really feel you deserve it, your job seems like hard work!!!!
We are all hoping the best for you, dont give up!!!!
Best of Luck.

 

[Diesel]

NJDispatcher you really don't want to get into that type of argument. Our payscales our public knowledge I don't think yours are. I would be interested in what you make but it's best not to start this type of argument.

Economic issues haven't even been discussed yet. Work rules etc. are still being covered.

 

[GVFlyer]

EJA Pay

I guess I don't understand how your pay is derived. In most of aviation a pilot is compensated in direct relationship to the size of the airplane he commands. For instance, it stands to reason that I should be paid more for managing a 47.2 million dollar asset for my company than I would be for managing a six million dollar jet.

But that is not how you guys work, your pay is calculated strickly on seniority. To me $106,284 (Flex) or $95,784 (17 day) is over compensation for an Ultra driver and dramatic undercompensation for a 2000 captain. What is the reason or rationale behind this pay system?

I agree with Falcon Captain that this may be a difficult time to negotiate a significant pay raise. The HR departments of many companies with flight departments are currently scrutinizing pilot compensation in light of current industry conditions.

Good luck!

GV

 

[A4Forever]

Several factors at NJA make transitioning from a pay by seniority to pay by weight a difficult task. It could be done, but would have to take place over an extended period of time. When one is hired by NJA, he/she is assigned to an aircraft based on needs of the company. Some lucky few do have inside tracts for a Falcon seat. A f/o assigned to the Ultra or perhaps the Excel, will probably have an opportunity to upgrade rather quickly. Not so for a Falcon f/o. I believe the seniority to get a Falcon capt bid is in the range of 4 years, give or take a month or 2. A f/o at NJA does start receiving capt pay when someone junior to them upgrades and begins receiving that pay. In order for a pay by weight system to work, an entirely new system of bidding and a completely new pay structure for f/o's would have to be implemented. Possible? yes. Probable? ????. Until then, a Falcon Capt will most likely be underpaid whereas an Ultra Capt might benefit from pay by seniority.

 

[.92wshn1.92]

YEAH.
Sure you guys are going to "walk"
where you walking to?...
all in a row to the unemplyment line? and dont think Warren does not know this..

125% raises....
I wish for you that was true, again you will be lucky to see 25%....LUCKY...
rememeber, this is a business....even at your low pay right now, how many of you are leaving??? How many are begging to take your job??? (none,lots)

Think you're going to get 125%???

I wouldn't go finance the 2nd home or the S600 Benz just yet....

This topic has degenerated into the dumb arguing with the ignorant. That alone doesn't shock me, but the anger that seems to be behind it all does. I love how Netjets keeps on being compared to the airlines, but only in negative ways, ie.
Netjets pilots work as hard as Airline pilots
Netjets pilots won't get paid what Airline pilots get paid, because look at all the problems facing the Airlines

How about these comparisons; the Airlines have NEVER (do I have to say it again?) the Airlines have never had a shortage of pilot applicants that would gladly give their left possibly both testicles to work for them, but they many times over negotiated industry leading wages...ponder that, then add to that nugget of info that not all the big iron drivers' days are numbered. Yes UAL is in a pickle and their unions had a lot to do with that, but they are one of many.

I can't believe I risked carpal tunnel addressing these dim witted arguements. Have any of you idiots that think Netjets pilots will be lucky to see 25% raises ever worked for a company with union representation or are you all just one hit wonders?

 

[2000flyer]

2000flyer

I do apologize, what I said does not apply to all I know. - Just to many....I have enojoyed the benefits of very small operations also...

but sorry I aint washing planes...I will make the call to the cleaners, etc...but no scrubbing the 20mil dollar jet.

I will have the FBO vacuum it and tip 20$ (and expense it) But I aint scrubbing the carpet on the 20mil dollar jet...

Just an opinion and no more!

G200,

No apologies necessary. I know where you were coming from. From time to time I have the "luxury" of tipping line service for helping out with the plane, but thats rare, few and far between. And I don't mind cleaning the plane. Maybe it's just become habit, who knows.

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[Duke of Ale]

To .92wshn1.92

Quote:How about these comparisons; the Airlines have NEVER (do I have to say it again?) the Airlines have never had a shortage of pilot applicants that would gladly give their left possibly both testicles to work for them

Evidently you are not old enough to remember when United offered jobs to pilots with just a private license and some with zero time back in the 60's. The program I heard was a failure but it meant that indeed there was a pilot shortage. I was hired by what was called a "Local Service Airline" with just a commercial and instrument ticket back in the mid 60's. I was just lucky to have been born at the right time. We may never see those days again, but they happened at least once. So be careful with the word NEVER.
Forgive me for rambling.

 

[beytzim]

To GVflyer: It may seem awkward to pay a Falcon pilot the same pay or lower pay than an Ultra pilot, but it's really not. If pay is given by amount of work done, Ultra guys should get paid more. At Netjets, Ultra and X guys work the most (fly the most legs per day, shortest rest peiods etc.) while 7 and Falcon guys work the least.

Once can argue that pilots should get paid in direct relation to how much money their respective aircraft brings. Since Falcon monthly management fees are higher than Ultra's MMF's, so should their pilots' pay be.

However, since all company revenues go in one pot and disembursed to pilots irrelative to the aircraft type, pilot pay-by-weight is only academic and important to those pilots with egos' leading the way.

The point: Paying pilots by aircraft type/weight is only to satisfy pilots' own egos and insecurities. It is in the best interest of all aviation companies to pay by seniority, period. The Majors have proven over and over again how to run something into the ground. Paying-by-weight is one thing we should learn from them NOT to do.

P.S. Falcon Capt: my previous post was meant for you...sorry about the confusion.

 

[FL450]

It's really sad that so much pessimism exists on these boards. It's very fortunate that the industry is driven by doers rather than critics. Don't let the bast rds get you down!

 

[.92wshn1.92]

To .92wshn1.92

Quote:How about these comparisons; the Airlines have NEVER (do I have to say it again?) the Airlines have never had a shortage of pilot applicants that would gladly give their left possibly both testicles to work for them

Evidently you are not old enough to remember when United offered jobs to pilots with just a private license and some with zero time back in the 60's.

You got me, I wasn't thinking about that far back. Part of me wants to say something flipant like weren't they flying DC3s back then, but then another part realizes you do have a point - you never know what the future holds and in an industry this young it's anyone's bet...I have to go with my gut though and say that even though this is an evolving industry some things will never be revisited. We may get periods where there are less quality pilots than in other times, but that's because these days it's not a fear that I could die in an airplane, but rather starve on the ground because I fly one.

 

[Grim Reaper]

There may have been a pilot shortage during the years between the Korean and VietNam wars. It does not seems that a significant pilot shortage has existed since 1975.

Situation with major airlines is bleak. US Air and United hanging on by a thread planning additional reductions. United expects 25% reduction in work force. American posted largest ever annual loss of any major airline. The only thing that will pervent AMR from declaring Chapter 11 and making drastic reductions is the liquation of United or a dramatic economic up swing. North West and Delta are planning additional furloughts and Northwest, along with United, US Air, and American, are signaling the pilots and other labor groups that wage concessions are a must. In some situations the wage reducitions are significant, and, in the case of United, may occure when the Judge drops the hammer and says the contract is void, management, pay them what you can. Then, of course, who travels overseas when the boys are not playing pretty in the sand box. Shooting makes the average person duck and cover so traveling takes a back seat.

Any way you move the cube, there will be at least another 2500 pilots and possibly another 8500 pilots on the street a year from now. Along with the reduction in pilots will come at least another 25% reduction in what is considered traditional major airline capacity. Not to worry, the low cost carriers will fill the void when it is PROFITABLE to do so.

The fractional industry will continue to grow but do not expect that it will grow at the rate of the late 90's. It is still about the economy. While new fractional customers will enter the market just as many or more will leave as the economic outlook remains bleak.

 

[CatYaaak]

Strike? Think about it first.

You guys talking about striking are completely forgetting who ultimately is paying your salaries and the MOST IMPORTANT factor.....the "owners" who sign up for limited terms. They are forking out big bucks for personal/corporate travel, and frankly I bet the majority of them don't even realize you are unionized. For those owners that fly a lot (and therefore pay the most), they are paying more than they would if they had their own coporate flight department ....they know this, they aren't stupid....but they knowingly pay this higher price for the convenience of NOT managing their own internal gig.

Now, imagine if suddenly everything they have been paying for and counting on suddenly screeches to a halt, or is seriously threatened by a job action in the form of a pilot strike? These people DON'T want airline-type hassles or they wouldn't be in your cabins in the first place, and for a passenger (who frankly doesn't care about these issues) a pilot strike is the biggest airline-type hassle there is. Even the serious and public threat of striking will give them pause.

Definitely go for pay increases through collective bargaining, but consider who you will be affecting if you actually went on strike. They are riding in the back of your aircraft only for the duration of THEIR contract life, regardless of yours. Fractionals are the alternative to airline travel for those with the means, but remember there is already a cheaper alternative to fractional ownership for those people who are flying more than about 300 hours a year...a corporate flight department...and that is still an option even if it means paying a little more. If you inject HASSLE AND UNCERTAINTY resulting from a strike into their travel needs there will ba a lot of those contracts not getting renewed.

I'd look hard before using the biggest airline-mentality, "us vs. mngmnt" hammer when trying to fix your problem that exists in the "business aviation" world. The people you affect the most really don't need you...they can hire their own pilots and buy their own airplanes if they want to.

 

[boxcar]

CatYaaak

No disagreement with your points. But, shouldn't your message be directed toward management rather than pilots? The pilots aren't looking for a windfall, just a wage structure that's somewhere close to industry standard. Right now aviation jobs are hard to find. But, virtually all NJA guys are well educated and have other skills. Most could realize a better income and quality of life doing almost anything outside of aviation. For years the owners have been assessed annual fee increases to fund pay raises for the pilots. The problem is, the company keeps the money: No cost of living or any other pay adjustment for the past seven years. If it takes a strike to get the company's attention, so be it. If the company chooses to fold, scale back, or hire replacement workers, (good luck getting the Teamster mechanics to fix the aircraft) so be it. After the dust settles, life will go on.

 

[GEXDriver]

Re: Strike? Think about it first.

You guys talking about striking are completely forgetting who ultimately is paying your salaries and the MOST IMPORTANT factor.....the "owners" who sign up for limited terms. They are forking out big bucks for personal/corporate travel, and frankly I bet the majority of them don't even realize you are unionized. For those owners that fly a lot (and therefore pay the most), they are paying more than they would if they had their own coporate flight department ....they know this, they aren't stupid....but they knowingly pay this higher price for the convenience of NOT managing their own internal gig.

Now, imagine if suddenly everything they have been paying for and counting on suddenly screeches to a halt, or is seriously threatened by a job action in the form of a pilot strike? These people DON'T want airline-type hassles or they wouldn't be in your cabins in the first place, and for a passenger (who frankly doesn't care about these issues) a pilot strike is the biggest airline-type hassle there is. Even the serious and public threat of striking will give them pause.

Definitely go for pay increases through collective bargaining, but consider who you will be affecting if you actually went on strike. They are riding in the back of your aircraft only for the duration of THEIR contract life, regardless of yours. Fractionals are the alternative to airline travel for those with the means, but remember there is already a cheaper alternative to fractional ownership for those people who are flying more than about 300 hours a year...a corporate flight department...and that is still an option even if it means paying a little more. If you inject HASSLE AND UNCERTAINTY resulting from a strike into their travel needs there will ba a lot of those contracts not getting renewed.

I'd look hard before using the biggest airline-mentality, "us vs. mngmnt" hammer when trying to fix your problem that exists in the "business aviation" world. The people you affect the most really don't need you...they can hire their own pilots and buy their own airplanes if they want to.

You're right. One of the flight departments I know bought a Netjets share because their Global was late with the plan to later use the share for supplemental lift. The CEO had such a bad experience with them being late or one time cancelling a departure from Las Vegas for being less than one degree too hot, that he sold the share as soon as the Global was delivered. The CP thinks the whole experience gave them job security. I'd be carefull out there.

GEXDriver

 

[GEXDriver]

To GVflyer: It may seem awkward to pay a Falcon pilot the same pay or lower pay than an Ultra pilot, but it's really not. If pay is given by amount of work done, Ultra guys should get paid more. At Netjets, Ultra and X guys work the most (fly the most legs per day, shortest rest peiods etc.) while 7 and Falcon guys work the least.

Once can argue that pilots should get paid in direct relation to how much money their respective aircraft brings. Since Falcon monthly management fees are higher than Ultra's MMF's, so should their pilots' pay be.

However, since all company revenues go in one pot and disembursed to pilots irrelative to the aircraft type, pilot pay-by-weight is only academic and important to those pilots with egos' leading the way.

The point: Paying pilots by aircraft type/weight is only to satisfy pilots' own egos and insecurities. It is in the best interest of all aviation companies to pay by seniority, period. The Majors have proven over and over again how to run something into the ground. Paying-by-weight is one thing we should learn from them NOT to do.

That's the dumbest thing I ever heard come from a pilot's mouth.

GEXDriver