Net jets scab pilot negotiator

[OPECJet]

I don't get it. if a union pilot decides to leave his job and walk a picket line, nobody hates him for life and puts him on a list. But if a pilot crosses the line to do his job, disagreeing with the union, look what happens. And then the union has the temerity to accuse that peaceful, non coercing pilot of being immoral and selfish and evil, for the rest of his career. I just don't understand it at all. Strike if you want, I won't mistreat you. Why don't you extend the same courtesy to a scab? Which I have not been, by the way.

I think your definition of "union" needs adjusting. The union isn't a few guys with suits being the face of the pilot group. It IS the pilot group. When a pilot chooses to cross a picket line he is sending a message to all involved that low pay, crap work rules, unprofessional treatment, etc are perfectly fine. Thank you, sir, may I have another...

From your posts I believe you've led a sheltered aviation life. By that I mean the first large company you've worked for is NJA. You've never gotten a beatdown by airline management trying to squeeze blood from a turnip. Good on you, and I mean that. You've made good career decisions that led you away from the crap that makes this career stink. Many of your brethren at NJA have worked in airlines that were mismanaged, and then expected that the workforce would take it in the shorts for piss poor decisions made in the board room. Few will stand by and watch NJA go down the same road without putting up a fight. Make no mistake that NJASAP wants NJA to remain a profitable and growing entity. Profit and growth are what advances the career. That career however must be worth getting in the airplane for.

 

[jetlag7]

I think your definition of "union" needs adjusting. The union isn't a few guys with suits being the face of the pilot group. It IS the pilot group. When a pilot chooses to cross a picket line he is sending a message to all involved that low pay, crap work rules, unprofessional treatment, etc are perfectly fine. Thank you, sir, may I have another...

From your posts I believe you've led a sheltered aviation life. By that I mean the first large company you've worked for is NJA. You've never gotten a beatdown by airline management trying to squeeze blood from a turnip. Good on you, and I mean that. You've made good career decisions that led you away from the crap that makes this career stink. Many of your brethren at NJA have worked in airlines that were mismanaged, and then expected that the workforce would take it in the shorts for piss poor decisions made in the board room. Few will stand by and watch NJA go down the same road without putting up a fight. Make no mistake that NJASAP wants NJA to remain a profitable and growing entity. Profit and growth are what advances the career. That career however must be worth getting in the airplane for.

:thumbup: Nailed it!

 

[gret]

:thumbup: Nailed it!

ditto...very nicely put...classy

 

[chief9404]

Spot on. Its amazing how many pilots out there place their trust in mgt. Its mind boggling.

I think your definition of "union" needs adjusting. The union isn't a few guys with suits being the face of the pilot group. It IS the pilot group. When a pilot chooses to cross a picket line he is sending a message to all involved that low pay, crap work rules, unprofessional treatment, etc are perfectly fine. Thank you, sir, may I have another...

From your posts I believe you've led a sheltered aviation life. By that I mean the first large company you've worked for is NJA. You've never gotten a beatdown by airline management trying to squeeze blood from a turnip. Good on you, and I mean that. You've made good career decisions that led you away from the crap that makes this career stink. Many of your brethren at NJA have worked in airlines that were mismanaged, and then expected that the workforce would take it in the shorts for piss poor decisions made in the board room. Few will stand by and watch NJA go down the same road without putting up a fight. Make no mistake that NJASAP wants NJA to remain a profitable and growing entity. Profit and growth are what advances the career. That career however must be worth getting in the airplane for.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I don't get it. if a union pilot decides to leave his job and walk a picket line, nobody hates him for life and puts him on a list. But if a pilot crosses the line to do his job, disagreeing with the union, look what happens. And then the union has the temerity to accuse that peaceful, non coercing pilot of being immoral and selfish and evil, for the rest of his career. I just don't understand it at all. Strike if you want, I won't mistreat you. Why don't you extend the same courtesy to a scab? Which I have not been, by the way.

Hey amigo, I know you and a few others of our mutual acquaintance are pretty adamant about never going on strike should it come to that. I'm not going to waste time trying to convince you otherwise. But, if we get there and you do cross a picket line, two things will happen:

1) Right or wrong, you WILL be branded forever as a scab and be forced to endure the remainder of your career as a pariah. It's NOT a pretty picture.

2) The company will survive or fail based on the economy, the sales team, the business model, and the EMT's decisions. NOT the pilot pay and benefits.

I WILL try to convince you and the others of one thing, however. If and when the union holds a strike authorization vote, the best way to AVOID a strike is to vote YES!!! Even if you have no intention of crossing the line, VOTING as if you would strike will go a long way toward convincing CMH to NOT RISK pushing us that far. Imagine the impact on JH and company if the strike vote comes back in the high 90's. THAT would go a long way toward securing a deal where the company AND the crews come out ahead.

This ain't Okatie anymore amigo. Take care of your customer, your crew, yourself, and your airplane. In THAT order. Let the company take care of itself.

 

[G4dude]

Hey amigo, I know you and a few others of our mutual acquaintance are pretty adamant about never going on strike should it come to that. I'm not going to waste time trying to convince you otherwise. But, if we get there and you do cross a picket line, two things will happen:

1) Right or wrong, you WILL be branded forever as a scab and be forced to endure the remainder of your career as a pariah. It's NOT a pretty picture.

2) The company will survive or fail based on the economy, the sales team, the business model, and the EMT's decisions. NOT the pilot pay and benefits.

I WILL try to convince you and the others of one thing, however. If and when the union holds a strike authorization vote, the best way to AVOID a strike is to vote YES!!! Even if you have no intention of crossing the line, VOTING as if you would strike will go a long way toward convincing CMH to NOT RISK pushing us that far. Imagine the impact on JH and company if the strike vote comes back in the high 90's. THAT would go a long way toward securing a deal where the company AND the crews come out ahead.

This ain't Okatie anymore amigo. Take care of your customer, your crew, yourself, and your airplane. In THAT order. Let the company take care of itself.

I get it. My point was, and I will try to iterate it again, is that those of us would not strike don't keep a list of strikers and attempt to harass them for the rest of their careers.But the strikers would do exactly that to us. Don't y'all see the difference in behavior?

 

[G4dude]

I think your definition of "union" needs adjusting. The union isn't a few guys with suits being the face of the pilot group. It IS the pilot group. When a pilot chooses to cross a picket line he is sending a message to all involved that low pay, crap work rules, unprofessional treatment, etc are perfectly fine. Thank you, sir, may I have another...

From your posts I believe you've led a sheltered aviation life. By that I mean the first large company you've worked for is NJA. You've never gotten a beatdown by airline management trying to squeeze blood from a turnip. Good on you, and I mean that. You've made good career decisions that led you away from the crap that makes this career stink. Many of your brethren at NJA have worked in airlines that were mismanaged, and then expected that the workforce would take it in the shorts for piss poor decisions made in the board room. Few will stand by and watch NJA go down the same road without putting up a fight. Make no mistake that NJASAP wants NJA to remain a profitable and growing entity. Profit and growth are what advances the career. That career however must be worth getting in the airplane for.

Great post, and thanks for the civil tone and content. Remember I was only talking about striking, and the way non strikers are treated for the rest of their careers. Not about collective bargaining, although I prefer individual bargaining. By the way, if a strike happened, I would have to cross the line, as my career before NJA was so terrible I would not be able to afford to stop working. No way I could make it through a strike, unless it was really short. A very sick wife and relatives needing assistance don't go away because the group wants to draw a line. I would have NO choice but to cross. Let's hope it never comes to that.

 

[G4dude]

How many more are going to let this troll attempt to further his FUD campaign in a blatant attempt to divide us, even in public? For those that just don't get it, please, just don't vote.

I am not trying to divide anybody. I am only discussing the shoddy treatment of pilots who cross the line versus the non shoddy way people like me treat strikers. Nobody yet here has answered me at all about that. To treat "scabs" the way union folks do is an absolute disgrace. The failure to upbraid fellow union members for behaving that way is disgraceful too. I am not slamming unions, just the terrible way union members treat anyone who crosses the line or who dares to disagree with the union consensus.

 

[Pervis]

I am not trying to divide anybody. I am only discussing the shoddy treatment of pilots who cross the line versus the non shoddy way people like me treat strikers. Nobody yet here has answered me at all about that. To treat "scabs" the way union folks do is an absolute disgrace. The failure to upbraid fellow union members for behaving that way is disgraceful too. I am not slamming unions, just the terrible way union members treat anyone who crosses the line or who dares to disagree with the union consensus.

Forgive the lack of clarity-I wasn't refering to you G4. The origional poster and those like him will spend millions to save a buck from us and love any discontent within our group's ranks. I understand your perception of the treatment of scabs, but you need to understand the mindset of those of us who see the efforts by this or any EMT for what they truely are. You really think JH is your friend? He could care less about you and would fire you and all of us in a heart beat if he could automate the cockpit.

Their superiors see them saving a buck, not for how they treat their fellow employees, and they try to do just that on our backs. They refuse to see that the value or worth of happy employees is far greater than their short term view of the bottom dollar. We're nothing but an evil necessity in their eyes, and I'm not talking about the union, but rather all the employees. Just look at how we're rated by those that truely matter-our owners. If only our EMT held the same view.

I highly recommend you get a copy of "Confessions of a Union Buster". It may help, and remember what company JH's daddy runs.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I get it. My point was, and I will try to iterate it again, is that those of us would not strike don't keep a list of strikers and attempt to harass them for the rest of their careers.But the strikers would do exactly that to us. Don't y'all see the difference in behavior?

I'm not into vendettas or keeping "lists" (unlike one particular wood-headed union member ) but you'll have to be prepared to deal with the fallout from plenty who will.

In the meantime, can I count on you to vote "YES" on a strike vote? Like I said, it's the best way to AVOID a strike.

 

[pilotyip]

I highly recommend you get a copy of "Confessions of a Union Buster". It may help, and remember what company JH's daddy runs.

Has anyone written the "Confessions of a Company Buster" yet?

 

[realityman]

I am not trying to divide anybody. I am only discussing the shoddy treatment of pilots who cross the line versus the non shoddy way people like me treat strikers. Nobody yet here has answered me at all about that. To treat "scabs" the way union folks do is an absolute disgrace. The failure to upbraid fellow union members for behaving that way is disgraceful too. I am not slamming unions, just the terrible way union members treat anyone who crosses the line or who dares to disagree with the union consensus.

No, you don't get it.

Whether you want to be or not, you are in the union now. The ONLY way we get anything accomplished is as a cohesive group.

I certainly hope that it NEVER comes to a strike. In spite of what many anti-union folks may think, we most certainly do not WANT a strike. It's not good for business, and certainly isn't good, in the short term, for the pilots.

However, should it come to a strike, it only works out if the vast majority of the pilots participate.

Which brings us to why scabs are treated so shoddily by everyone else. All those issues you mentioned that would make it difficult for you to strike? Well guess what? A lot of the pilots who will be striking have the same or similar issues. Yet they will be out there walking the line. The problem is, that every pilot who crosses the picket line to continue flying is allowing the company to operate a little longer before coming back to the negotiating table. So all those pilots with the strength to strike even while under terrible financial stress will now have to stick it out even longer because scabs are helping only themselves and the company. A scab is undermining the greatest leverage the union has to use. And even folks who aren't supporting sick relatives will still feel the pain during the strike (unless they were able to prepare beforehand), and scabs will force them to feel the pain even longer.

The worst part is, if the striking union pilots are successful, the scabs will enjoy the same increase in compensation as those who did the work, took the risk, and felt the pain. While I hope it never comes to a strike, if it does, and we ultimately get a great CBA from it, will you refuse the extra compensation because you didn't participate in the strike?

I am one of the people supporting sick relatives. My own family is growing, and while I think I'm dong a great job managing my finances, I really don't have a lot of extra to save. A strike would be VERY hard on me financially. But I will NOT cross the picket line. I will be out there walking circles with my fellow pilots trying to get a better CBA. Anyone who actively participates in making that an even harder job than it'll already be is going to earn a huge amount of derision and hatred from me.

Do you honestly not understand why scabs are treated so poorly? All of your posts are about YOU. How hard it would be for YOU. A union is about the group. If the group sticks together, better things can be accomplished for the individuals that make up that group. If it's fractured, the accomplishments will be diminished. If I, and many others, make huge sacrifices to try for a better CBA, and scabs actively undermine us, you better believe they deserve to be treated poorly!

As to why wouldn't you treat strikers poorly? Let me think. Could it be because if we are successful YOU will benefit greatly? Why on earth would you treat anyone poorly who is trying to make things better for you?

So yes, generally speaking, scabs don't have a lot of reason to hate strikers. They get the best of both worlds: still working and making money while others do the hard part to secure a better CBA, and then enjoying the benefits of that CBA. While strikers absolutely hate scabs: they put it all on the line, even folks with difficult home situations, so everyone can enjoy a better CBA, even the scabs.

I know you don't want to be in the union, and don't like it. Fine. But if you can't see how actively undermining the union's greatest leverage would earn you lifelong hate, then I can't help you.

 

[Pervis]

Has anyone written the "Confessions of a Company Buster" yet?

Maybe Frank Lorenzo?

 

[OPECJet]

Great post, and thanks for the civil tone and content. Remember I was only talking about striking, and the way non strikers are treated for the rest of their careers. Not about collective bargaining, although I prefer individual bargaining. By the way, if a strike happened, I would have to cross the line, as my career before NJA was so terrible I would not be able to afford to stop working. No way I could make it through a strike, unless it was really short. A very sick wife and relatives needing assistance don't go away because the group wants to draw a line. I would have NO choice but to cross. Let's hope it never comes to that.

I genuinely wish your wife the best. Prayers will be sent your way.

Please understand many of the pilots at NJA will be in similar boats and will have to make the same decision. History shows many will honor the picket line. When a pilot crosses that picket line he sends a message to his fellow pilots that the cause they have placed their careers on the line for is not a worthy one. It proves to his fellow pilots on strike that he cannot be counted on in times of great stress. If I'm walking behind you, you trip, crack open your head and are bleeding / disoriented / sprawled out on the sidewalk, what does it say about me if I don't get involved and help you when you need it? Extreme example, but I think you catch my drift.

This strike talk is very premature. If the pilot group strikes it's the end of NJA. Both sides know it. The owners know it and I can't see them watching Hansell or Buffett allow their assets to disintigrate overnight. There are too many stake holders for the ultimate outcome to be unfavorable to the pilot group. We won't get everything we want out of negotiations, but we won't come out as big losers either.

Outside of the cockpit I think individual bargaining is fine. At a large aircraft operator it seems it would be difficult. You have 2500 pilots doing the same exact job. You have a company that is bottom line driven. Collective bargaining when done correctly serves both party's interests fairly well. Right now there's no reason to think this next agreement won't be done correctly, although the starting positions of each are going to be far apart, and as a result it's going to be ugly for a while.

 

[realityman]

This strike talk is very premature. If the pilot group strikes it's the end of NJA. Both sides know it. The owners know it and I can't see them watching Hansell or Buffett allow their assets to disintigrate overnight. There are too many stake holders for the ultimate outcome to be unfavorable to the pilot group. We won't get everything we want out of negotiations, but we won't come out as big losers either.

I think this is spot on.

There will be no strike.

Nevertheless, we must be ready to do it if necessary. I don't think a strike is something to bluff about. So management comes on here and sees us writing things like "We won't really strike", and that also reduces our leverage. I'm not suggesting YOU are reducing our leverage, just stating that the strike vote shouldn't be a bluff. And I don't think it will be. Hopefully management will understand this.

But G4 wanted to know why strikers hate scabs so much. Whether we strike or not, I think he was just looking for a little education on the feelings involved.

I hope he has a little better understanding now.

 

[jetlag7]

I think this is spot on.

There will be no strike.

Nevertheless, we must be ready to do it if necessary. I don't think a strike is something to bluff about. So management comes on here and sees us writing things like "We won't really strike", and that also reduces our leverage. I'm not suggesting YOU are reducing our leverage, just stating that the strike vote shouldn't be a bluff. And I don't think it will be. Hopefully management will understand this.

But G4 wanted to know why strikers hate scabs so much. Whether we strike or not, I think he was just looking for a little education on the feelings involved.

I hope he has a little better understanding now.

I don't know of anyone who would bluff about something as serious as a strike.

In my circle of acquaintances and colleagues, every one of us is already prepared financially and emotionally should things go south, but not a single person I know hopes we have to pursue that course of action.

Every time labor and management sit across the table from one another, it is always a real possibility... Regardless of personal opinions on the matter, the maxim "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst" applies.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I think this is spot on.

There will be no strike.

Nevertheless, we must be ready to do it if necessary. I don't think a strike is something to bluff about. So management comes on here and sees us writing things like "We won't really strike", and that also reduces our leverage. I'm not suggesting YOU are reducing our leverage, just stating that the strike vote shouldn't be a bluff. And I don't think it will be. Hopefully management will understand this.

But G4 wanted to know why strikers hate scabs so much. Whether we strike or not, I think he was just looking for a little education on the feelings involved.

I hope he has a little better understanding now.

Which is EXACTLY why I urge every pilot I know in my fleet, especially the ones I know who HATE the union, to vote YES if/when the strike authorization vote occurs. An overwhelming YES vote will be the best way to AVOID a strike and forge a deal that will benefit EVERYBODY.

 

[G4dude]

I'm not into vendettas or keeping "lists" (unlike one particular wood-headed union member ) but you'll have to be prepared to deal with the fallout from plenty who will.

In the meantime, can I count on you to vote "YES" on a strike vote? Like I said, it's the best way to AVOID a strike.

I never thought about how a strong strike vote could avoid a strike. Hmmm. Gotta think about that, gutshot. You are persuasive as always, amigo. Count me as a probable yes.

 

[G4dude]

I think this is spot on.

There will be no strike.

Nevertheless, we must be ready to do it if necessary. I don't think a strike is something to bluff about. So management comes on here and sees us writing things like "We won't really strike", and that also reduces our leverage. I'm not suggesting YOU are reducing our leverage, just stating that the strike vote shouldn't be a bluff. And I don't think it will be. Hopefully management will understand this.

But G4 wanted to know why strikers hate scabs so much. Whether we strike or not, I think he was just looking for a little education on the feelings involved.

I hope he has a little better understanding now.

Yes I do understand better, thanks. But my question remains. Even with understanding why union strikers disagree with scabs, I don't understand the hatred, and deplore the awful behavior, the intimidation and harassment. And don't understand why every decent person does not come out and say this. Even Gutshotdraw, who is one of my favorite people at NJA, doesn't seem to deplore the harassment, merely stating that it is to be expected.

 

[imacdog]

When you scab it means you're turning your back on your fellow colleagues. No one likes a colleague that does that. It really doesn't get any simpler than that.