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National Seniority ist article

relief tube

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'Is seniority killing the airline industry?'​
That's the question asked by BusinessWeek Traveler's Check columnist Justin Bachman. He writes that "for decades it's been a maxim of the airline industry that workers are captive, bound by a seniority system that doles out the choicest wages and work schedules."
But, is that the best way for the airline industry to do things? Maybe not, according to Bachman, who says "in recent days, I’ve heard some smart people begin to question whether this system is harmful and ought to change."
Bachman quotes Wall Street analyst Jamie Baker as saying that with company-based seniority, there's "no portability at airlines for labor." For example, Baker notes an unhappy pilot "can’t take his skill set and sell it to Delta or sell it to United." A pilot -- like most front-line airline industry workers -- who switches airlines would drop to the bottom of the seniority list at the new company.
Bachman also points to industry observer William Swelbar, an airline expert and researcher at MIT who also authors the aviation-focused Swelblog.com. Swelbar cites recent seniority spats at US Airways and American (with former TWA flight attendants), saying "the current seniority system does not work for shrinking industries like airlines and autos."
Swelbar asks: "Whether it is in the airline industry or in the automobile industry, there clearly is something wrong with the seniority system. My question: should seniority really be sacred?" His "concluding thoughts?" He suggests that "given that the airline industry will likely get smaller before and if it gets bigger, it is high time that organized labor puts down its swords and constructs a national seniority list."
Swelbar adds "employees should have the right to move within the industry should their carrier cease to exist. Seniority should not be a shield for some to hide behind. Rather it should promote stability for those experienced workers that choose to offer their services for hire in an open market." Would that ever happen? Many seem skepitcal, including BusinessWeek'sBachman, who writes: "I think it’s unlikely unions would support any major restructuring of seniority."
 

CEO silly sap

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'Is seniority killing the airline industry?'​
That's the question asked by BusinessWeek Traveler's Check columnist Justin Bachman. He writes that "for decades it's been a maxim of the airline industry that workers are captive, bound by a seniority system that doles out the choicest wages and work schedules."
But, is that the best way for the airline industry to do things? Maybe not, according to Bachman, who says "in recent days, I’ve heard some smart people begin to question whether this system is harmful and ought to change."
Bachman quotes Wall Street analyst Jamie Baker as saying that with company-based seniority, there's "no portability at airlines for labor." For example, Baker notes an unhappy pilot "can’t take his skill set and sell it to Delta or sell it to United." A pilot -- like most front-line airline industry workers -- who switches airlines would drop to the bottom of the seniority list at the new company.
Bachman also points to industry observer William Swelbar, an airline expert and researcher at MIT who also authors the aviation-focused Swelblog.com. Swelbar cites recent seniority spats at US Airways and American (with former TWA flight attendants), saying "the current seniority system does not work for shrinking industries like airlines and autos."
Swelbar asks: "Whether it is in the airline industry or in the automobile industry, there clearly is something wrong with the seniority system. My question: should seniority really be sacred?" His "concluding thoughts?" He suggests that "given that the airline industry will likely get smaller before and if it gets bigger, it is high time that organized labor puts down its swords and constructs a national seniority list."
Swelbar adds "employees should have the right to move within the industry should their carrier cease to exist. Seniority should not be a shield for some to hide behind. Rather it should promote stability for those experienced workers that choose to offer their services for hire in an open market." Would that ever happen? Many seem skepitcal, including BusinessWeek'sBachman, who writes: "I think it’s unlikely unions would support any major restructuring of seniority."

Sadly Bachman never contacted anyone from APA USAPA ALPA or any other pilot Union. Until pilots realize there is a common "enemy" in Managment, we will be fighting among ourselves till retirement. Kind of make ya look back at the Lorenzo Days and think " There is the Devil, he is the one we need to fight"
 

Draginass

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Completely inane article. National seniority sounds good on the surface, but the devil's in the details, such as who you were hired by and the competitiveness it took to get there.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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If seniority doesn't work in a shrinking industry.... what does work?


The problems with seniority right now, is the super senior members have their cake and eat it too....

It is not enough for the senior guy to know that his job is the most protected, that his paycheck is secure, but he also gets the best schedule, best trips, most days off, best benefits, etc... It is too top heavy....

Problem is, the time a pilot spends in the lower end, with low pay, low benefits, furloughs, least days off, by the time he gets to the "cake and eats it too" he wants to get a much as he can.... This results in a 'pull up the ladder, I got mine'. There is no incentive to fix the professional (economic) disparity. It the same in many professions. Older, establish doctors don't care that residence are up for 36 hours, showing fatigue equivalent to being drunk. The attitude is "I had to do it, so they can too..."


The current set up will always perpetuate a large disparity gap, with indifference from the senior members who are needed to invoke change...

There should always be reward for seniority and longevity, but currently the disparity is too great...
 

JoeMerchant

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If seniority doesn't work in a shrinking industry.... what does work?


The problems with seniority right now, is the super senior members have their cake and eat it too....

It is not enough for the senior guy to know that his job is the most protected, that his paycheck is secure, but he also gets the best schedule, best trips, most days off, best benefits, etc... It is too top heavy....

Problem is, the time a pilot spends in the lower end, with low pay, low benefits, furloughs, least days off, by the time he gets to the "cake and eats it too" he wants to get a much as he can.... This results in a 'pull up the ladder, I got mine'. There is no incentive to fix the professional (economic) disparity. It the same in many professions. Older, establish doctors don't care that residence are up for 36 hours, showing fatigue equivalent to being drunk. The attitude is "I had to do it, so they can too..."


The current set up will always perpetuate a large disparity gap, with indifference from the senior members who are needed to invoke change...

There should always be reward for seniority and longevity, but currently the disparity is too great...

For once, I don't disagree with much of what you say.....but how do we extract ourselves from the situation we helped create? By your own admission, the senior members of our "brotherhood" only care about themselves...how do we change the paradigm?
 

JoeMerchant

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National Seniority List? NO!!!

Why not? Let me guess...you are a twenty something Delta pilot....You don't see the need do you?
 

FBN0223

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Why not? Let me guess...you are a twenty something Delta pilot....You don't see the need do you?

Actually in my forties with 12 years at NW. I guess I would need the specifics of a national list. Seniority is everything(within an airline) and I think most would be hard-pressed to give that up. When is the seniority based? ALPA membership? DOH at an ALPA carrier? Date pilot received commercial license?
 
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JoeMerchant

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Actually in my forties with 12 years at NW. I guess I would need the specifics of a national list. Seniority is everything(within an airline) and I think most would be hard-pressed to that up.

Your right that seniority is everything....That is why I, as a senior ASA pilot, am not on your team....Too much to lose....We need a different system...Otherwise we can continue the current system of fighting each other...Your choice...
 

FBN0223

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When is the seniority based? ALPA membership? DOH at an ALPA carrier? Date pilot received commercial license?
 

JoeMerchant

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When is the seniority based? ALPA membership? DOH at an ALPA carrier? Date pilot received commercial license?

That's negotiable....my vote is the DOH of their first 121 job...
 

firstthird

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That's negotiable....my vote is the DOH of their first 121 job...

which screws military guys. hence, one of the many problems with such a 'solution.'
 

stlflyguy

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That's negotiable....my vote is the DOH of their first 121 job...

I'm with you on this one. By the way, ALPA would never want the "date hired by first ALPA carrier" because they'd never be able to recruit the non-ALPA carriers.

stlflyguy
 

michael707767

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That's negotiable....my vote is the DOH of their first 121 job...

Then there will never be a national list. Sorry, but a pilot with 500 hours starting at Mesa is not starting at the same level job as a pilot with 5000 hours starting at Southwest or Delta. No way should a Mesa pilot hired today go ahead of a Southwest or Delta pilot hired tomorrow.
 

JoeMerchant

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which screws military guys. hence, one of the many problems with such a 'solution.'

A lot of military guys are getting screwed at United, USAirways, etc....How many military guys at TWA, Eastern, Braniff, etc....got screwed....This is a union issue and a 121 issue....

You're right that they won't support this...doesn't really matter because it isn't going to happen anyway....We are just going to piss and moan about the current situation.....That will be fair for all...:D
 

JoeMerchant

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Then there will never be a national list. Sorry, but a pilot with 500 hours starting at Mesa is not starting at the same level job as a pilot with 5000 hours starting at Southwest or Delta. No way should a Mesa pilot hired today go ahead of a Southwest or Delta pilot hired tomorrow.

Fine...then it won't happen and we can all live with consequences...I'm fine with that too.....
 

PeanuckleCRJ

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Joe, in all your brilliance, how would you suggest implementing a national seniority list?
 

JoeMerchant

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Joe, in all your brilliance, how would you suggest implementing a national seniority list?

1. All the union carriers agree to a national list.

2. Those union carriers then negotiate said list into their PWA.

3. Don't worry...it will never happen...We will continue to fight each other as we defend our "turf".....
 

Jetjockey

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Then there will never be a national list. Sorry, but a pilot with 500 hours starting at Mesa is not starting at the same level job as a pilot with 5000 hours starting at Southwest or Delta. No way should a Mesa pilot hired today go ahead of a Southwest or Delta pilot hired tomorrow.

For argument's sake...........(lord knows that's why this place was created) Why?

A pilot who decides to pursue a career in the military should have domain over a pilot who decides to carry passengers? What's the logic there? I see them as two separate career paths.
 
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