National Seniority ist article

[cybourg10]

"The Fee For Departure Committee spent 1.5 years developing a plan for the Fee For Departure airlines. One list is possible and a step by step plan and been submitted and approved by the ALPA BOD. It might be purdent to contact your reps and ask them for a copy of the plan OR call them and have a conversation regarding the plan. United and the Majors have also started formulating a plan to create job security.

In the last Executive Board DELTA/UNITED/CAL and all the ALPA FFD airlines/partners engaged in this exact debate."

I copied and pasted this from the XJT pilot forum, this was posted by an ALPA National VP from XJT. I flew with him recently and he educated me a little on this subject but this is a serious issue and ALPA has started the long process of obtaining a national seniority list......

 

[JoeMerchant]

"The Fee For Departure Committee spent 1.5 years developing a plan for the Fee For Departure airlines. One list is possible and a step by step plan and been submitted and approved by the ALPA BOD. It might be purdent to contact your reps and ask them for a copy of the plan OR call them and have a conversation regarding the plan. United and the Majors have also started formulating a plan to create job security.

In the last Executive Board DELTA/UNITED/CAL and all the ALPA FFD airlines/partners engaged in this exact debate."

I copied and pasted this from the XJT pilot forum, this was posted by an ALPA National VP from XJT. I flew with him recently and he educated me a little on this subject but this is a serious issue and ALPA has started the long process of obtaining a national seniority list......

The United pilots actually started the ball rolling.....Nothing like mortality to give some religion.....

 

[cybourg10]

The United pilots actually started the ball rolling.....Nothing like mortality to give some religion.....

Yea but at this point I'll take what I can get, question is do they have enough will power to see this thing all the way through?

 

[Colonel Savage]

The national union/seniority list issue was brought up over thirty years ago when deregulation first was proposed by Alfred Kahn and the Carter Administration. A grassroots movement was led by rank and file line pilots and some LEC's out of concern for what a deregulated industry would mean for labor, but it was rejected by those in charge at ALPA National.

 

[becket]

If seniority doesn't work in a shrinking industry.... what does work?

The lowest bidder. I can see it now. A reverse Ebay style auctions for each airline and it's jobs. The lowest qualified bidder gets the job. There are thousands of guys out there that will left seat a 777 for 55k a year. Maybe less. That's who would end up staffing this nations airlines.

The seniority system sucks but at least it's a level playing field.

 

[michael707767]

For argument's sake...........(lord knows that's why this place was created) Why?

A pilot who decides to pursue a career in the military should have domain over a pilot who decides to carry passengers? What's the logic there? I see them as two separate career paths.

I'm not just talking about the military. There was a guy in my new hire class at Delta, former corporate pilot, and this was his first 121 job. Given the popularity of corporate flying now, how would you handle a guy who got hired at a regional, left for many years, then comes back to 121 flying? Does he/she still keep their DOH from their first 121 job?

The logic there is that a job with a major is a better job than a job with a regional. When pilots stop leaving regionals to go to a major, you will have an argument that the two dates of hire are equal.

Very few mergers have ever gone DOH, yet you are proposing a national list that would re-order the lists that exist at many companies? Do you think that will really work?

 

[HalinTexas]

The lowest bidder. I can see it now. A reverse Ebay style auctions for each airline and it's jobs. The lowest qualified bidder gets the job. There are thousands of guys out there that will left seat a 777 for 55k a year. Maybe less. That's who would end up staffing this nations airlines.

The seniority system sucks but at least it's a level playing field.

Unless your airline goes out of business.

 

[HalinTexas]

Date of initial issuance of your ATP, and DOH at a participating company (hopefully all of them will be participating), whichever comes later. Until then, you're an apprentice.

My example: ATP in 8/1993. Hired at TSA 11/1993. So my "slot" on the list is 11/1993. But, at the moment, I'm unemployed. So where do I fit now?

Now, this could only apply to pay or company seniority, or both.

The real problem is getting companies on board. Why would they hire someone, like me, that's worked for two ALPA carriers for a total of 15 years and pay them at that rate, when they can pay someone at the five year rate, or worse, start their own ab initio program and start them at first year rate?

To make this meaningful, the companies would have to be compelled to hire first from this list if someone is furloughed or unemployed do to BK.

This is a nice topic for discussion (argument, flaming, etc.), but it will never happen.

 

[KCPilot]

A lot of military guys are getting screwed at United, USAirways, etc....How many military guys at TWA, Eastern, Braniff, etc....got screwed....This is a union issue and a 121 issue....

You're right that they won't support this...doesn't really matter because it isn't going to happen anyway....We are just going to piss and moan about the current situation.....That will be fair for all...

Welcome to life. Now grow up and get over it!

 

[Captain X]

1. All the union carriers agree to a national list.

2. Those union carriers then negotiate said list into their PWA.

3. Don't worry...it will never happen...We will continue to fight each other as we defend our "turf".....

It would never make it past step 1.

 

[WabiSabi]

.............. and ALPA has started the long process of obtaining a national seniority list......

ALPA is not the be all end all of pilot unions. Regardless of anyone's opinion on the Teamsters, they represent plenty of pilots.

In general, a national seniority list would require many very complicated, high and solid fences to grandfather pilots that are "sitting pretty" at their carriers.

 

[pilotyip]

Free Agency, that is the answer? Airlines based upon their performance, get to draft new pilots. First round draft choices would really make out. They would then negotiate a contract for "X" years. At the end of that time the pilots could declare themselves as a "Free Agent". Other airlines that needed an A-320 Line Check Airman would bid for that pilot's services. This way the best would rise to the top and demand top salaries. How about it sounds like a better plan than national seniority.

 

[CEO silly sap]

I'm curious, does an electrician who is a member of the Electricians Union have a Seniority number?

2nd question: If a military electrician leaves the military and joins the Electricians Union does that person get their Military Seniority or do the start from scratch on the Union list?

3rd question: If an Electrician who is a union member, moves to another city does that person have to start at the bottom of the list in that city or do they take their journeymen experience and seniority with them.

 

[CEO silly sap]

Would it matter what plane you flew if you were paid by years of service instead of the type of metal?

 

[Jetpipeovht]

Why not? Let me guess...you are a twenty something Delta pilot....You don't see the need do you?

For him it would be more advantageous!! he's got the youth to see the top percentile in the industry.

 

[Jetpipeovht]

I'm curious, does an electrician who is a member of the Electricians Union have a Seniority number?

YES

2nd question: If a military electrician leaves the military and joins the Electricians Union does that person get their Military Seniority or do the start from scratch on the Union list?

Starts from scratch unless a civilian electrician can join the military and base his pay grade and seniority on his/her experience. Which will never happen.

3rd question: If an Electrician who is a union member, moves to another city does that person have to start at the bottom of the list in that city or do they take their journeymen experience and seniority with them.

Yes he takes the seniority and experience with him/her.

My opinion of course.

 

[Fly4hire]

"The Fee For Departure Committee spent 1.5 years developing a plan for the Fee For Departure airlines. One list is possible and a step by step plan and been submitted and approved by the ALPA BOD.

I copied and pasted this from the XJT pilot forum, this was posted by an ALPA National VP from XJT. I flew with him recently and he educated me a little on this subject but this is a serious issue and ALPA has started the long process of obtaining a national seniority list......

Wrong. This is a plan for cross seniority among a affiliated feeders under a given major airline brand.

It does not affect mainline, nor is it a precursor to a national list.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

This is a repost of mine from last summer. I think most pilots intuitively know that we need a national seniority list. The question is when pilots will finally had enough and demand one. The question is how do we start. We keep getting bogged down with the nay-sayers.

We can do this. The companies really don’t care if we all get paid at $50,000 or $500,000 just as long as we’re close to the competition.

AA767AV8TOR


OK, how about we do it this way for a national seniority number – say we give a reasonable time period of 3-4 years for all of us to get through this current negotiation cycle. Then on 01/01/2011 or 2012, we rank all pilots in the industry based on their W-2 incomes from airline services and assign an industry wide seniority number. After that, it’s based on date and time of hire at your particular airline. It could done on an individual basis or be done by airline and position such as – All FedEx Captains, followed by UPS Captains followed by LUV Captains and so on.

For this to work, we need every major union on board.

Next we come out with national pay scales for each and every plane and position – industry wide. No more undercutting each other. It’s a national pay scale for our services for flying a plane from A to B. We also would have to develop common monthly hours and duty rigs. Pay and work rules would be adjusted annually by a national committee comprised of members from each union.

At this point, I realize UPS, FedEx, and the LUV pilots would be our top dogs. But, guess what – they deserve it. Next, it would motivate the rest of us to improve our contracts this next time around. Think of how easy any merger would be with a national seniority number. Instead of spending millions on attorneys and all the infighting amongst pilots, the money could be kept in house for us.

Furloughs would go in a common pool and picked up by the next company hiring based on their national seniority number and a minimum “agreed to” level of experience to occupy a particular aircraft and seat or else it goes to the next pilot in line.

So for the initial rank, we agree on a particular date and then rank from the top based on W-2 airline compensation, after which the seniority date would be on date and time of hire at one’s first airline (Part 121). The proposal would actually give all airline pilots an excuse to go after the big airline contract and max out their compensation during this next cycle. No excuses for bad negotiating or working for a crappy company. At the end of time period, it is what it is.

It’s simple and it’s doable. For the first time in a generation, it would put us – the U.S. pilots in the driver’s seat. We would be in direct control of our destiny, instead of the other way around. If we have to fight, our anger and focus would be directed at our companies for a better contract instead of each other. Any takers??

Or we could continue to do it the old way and maintain this profession on its downward death spiral.

AA767AV8TOR

P.S. I think most of us know what needs to be done. The question is when we determine we’ve had enough and to just go for it.
Last edited by AA767AV8TOR : 07-30-2008 at 13:41.

 

[CFI2766]

The logic there is that a job with a major is a better job than a job with a regional. When pilots stop leaving regionals to go to a major, you will have an argument that the two dates of hire are equal.

That is EXACTLY what is happening now. In several cases.

 

[FlyinGuy]

I always laugh when this discussion comes up...you guys are crazy if you think that this will ever work.