My sixth year view of AirTran

[Lear70]

Oh God, where to start...

We are about to have a concessionary contract rammed down our throat and no one is stepping up to the plate. Until we hit them in the wallet, expect nothing to change.

That's something I'd better not EVER, EVER hear a NPA BOD or Rep come out and say.

The contract that is sent to the pilots for ratification is a DIRECT result of what the NC is able to get out of the company.

1. If the polling numbers show the majority of pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the NC is violating its responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE. Period.

2. If the polling numbers show the majority of pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the BOD is violating their responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE.

3. If the polling numbers show the majority of the pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the MEC Chair is violating his responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE.

This is not my first rodeo. These are BASIC TENANTS that ALL of these people SWORE AN OATH to perform for their membership. Anything that is put out that is even VAGUELY in conflict with the Wilson Polling data violates the trust and faith of the pilots. Period.

There is no "ramming a concessionary contract" down ANYONE'S throat. The NC and BOD determine what goes to Mem Rat.

Taxi as if the FAA was observing, write up each and every maintenance discrepancy, alert, cabin discrepancy, do not reset CB's, do not test run engines (even if directed by Mx), conduct meticulous pre-flight inspections, do not call for a gate, cleaning, catering. In other words DO YOUR JOB AND NOTHING MORE!!

Many of those, in and of themselves, are illegal work actions. Especially not calling for a gate, cleaning, catering, etc. Those ARE part of your job.

The first ones however, are your FAA-MANDATED responsibility to do. If something's wrong, you call it in. Period. You ALWAYS conduct a thorough preflight. Period. You ALWAYS operate the aircraft as though the FAA were watching, because it's the SAFE way to do it. If that causes delays, so be it.

We have our sights set way too low. I've said it before, I can safely cast my NO vote today.

I'm glad,,, I can, too, if it's concessionary. But I don't believe our elected officials will send anything like that to us for Rat. If anything I'm hearing the exact opposite. Tensions are high, people are frustrated, which is what management wants.

Take a step back, enjoy your family, enjoy the holidays, and realize we're STILL a year or more away from the end game in this. We still have a LOT of tools available to us as a union that we haven't even begun to explore yet.

Stay the course!

The medical field is in worse shape than aviation. Just try going through all that hell for the same paycheck you get after six years at AirTran.

For once I agree with YPF.

My dad and I are the only ones in our family in the aviation field. Most are in medicine with two attorneys. The one doctor (cardio-thoracic surgeon) has been barely paying the bills the last 4 years after he began practicing and is just now starting to have a decent lifestyle. at 40.

The other just spent 8 months without a job after HCA moved in and purchased the hospital and shut it down to elliminate the competition. He's an Anesthesiologist... was making $300k to $400k when he was working but now the market here is flooded with doctors, nurses, etc from the hospital closing. He's going to have to move an hour into the country to get a job at $200k. At 38.

The G.P.'s are struggling to make $150k a year at 35-45... insurance companies are destroying their ability to make money with "negotiated fees" and other such nonsense. All in the name of lower insurance rates, which I'm sure as heck not seeing, my insurance costs go up every open enrollment no matter WHICH company I'm with.

I come from a family of lawyers and yes there are some that make under 100k but most make significantly more. I have seen my brother make more in one month than I made the whole year. He has been a lawyer for about 7 years and is on pace to bring in well over 500k and he still has time to play golf twice a week.

Your family is in the minority.

Corporate Attorneys are making pretty good change, but it takes an inside contact to get one of these jobs (just like a major). VERY few do it on merit alone and if they do, they're one of the really talented attorneys who also makes a killing in the private sector doing high-power criminal defense.

The majority of attorneys doing bankruptcy practice, family law practice (divorce, wills, POA's), and state prosecutors make right around $100,000 a year and work from 7 in the morning until 6 or so at night.

The MBA's are definitely where the money is at. If you want to go back to school, go get your MBA and go back to the airlines on the other side of the fence. You may not have any self-respect left, but at least you'll be set up to be part of the new aristocracy arising from this country for probably the next half-century.

As for me, I'll keep flying, keep fighting to have a decent lifestyle, and enjoy my family as much as possible.

Sorry if I'm rambling, the baby's been sick for a week and gave me whatever he has...

 

[Lear70]

Incidentally, I disagree about upgrades.

People who are getting hired now, based on current aircraft orders, delivery schedule, historic attrition (which is probably going to go higher as previously discussed), will sit in the right seat for about 4 years.

Do the math based on vacancies over the last year compared to aircraft delivery and project out based on currently-proposed deliveries.

It's a lot slower than it's been recently, which is why we need MUCH better F/O rates as well as CA rates, but it's not coming to a screeching halt anytime soon.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Incidentally, I disagree about upgrades.

it's not coming to a screeching halt anytime soon.

Amen to that!

 

[pilotyip]

Lear70 what a refreshing dose of reality. Making $100K per year doing something you like puts you in the upper 5% of income in the US. There are many many people out there who would love to be in that position. You fly airplanes because you like to. BTW how is a marginally profitable company supposed to make big changes?

 

[-9Capt]

There is no "ramming a concessionary contract" down ANYONE'S throat. The NC and BOD determine what goes to Mem Rat.

Tell that to the pilots of Alaska Airlines.


Many of those, in and of themselves, are illegal work actions. Especially not calling for a gate, cleaning, catering, etc. Those ARE part of your job.

Show me where it says that I must do any of that in the FOM.

The first ones however, are your FAA-MANDATED responsibility to do. If something's wrong, you call it in. Period.

The problem is, that is not being done.

 

[-9Capt]

Lear70 what a refreshing dose of reality. Making $100K per year doing something you like puts you in the upper 5% of income in the US.

Reality?

The sad reality is that we've systematically had our contract dismantled over the last 5 years. Management has been using our contract as toilet paper. And in your opinion, because I make over 100K, this is acceptable?

Personally I don't like being taken advantage of regardless of how much I make. Please do us a favor and never apply to AirTran, we have enough limp wristed, company sympathizers already.

 

[instructordude]

brain surgery, I presume?

No, I have been thinking about just being a doctor. You know, the ones you got to in a building when you are sick. Those dudes make some serious change.

 

[80for80]

Oh God, where to start...


That's something I'd better not EVER, EVER hear a NPA BOD or Rep come out and say.

The contract that is sent to the pilots for ratification is a DIRECT result of what the NC is able to get out of the company.

1. If the polling numbers show the majority of pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the NC is violating its responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE. Period.

2. If the polling numbers show the majority of pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the BOD is violating their responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE.

3. If the polling numbers show the majority of the pilots aren't in favor of a concessionary contract, then the MEC Chair is violating his responsibility to the pilots of NOT ALLOWING ONE TO GO TO VOTE.

This is not my first rodeo. These are BASIC TENANTS that ALL of these people SWORE AN OATH to perform for their membership. Anything that is put out that is even VAGUELY in conflict with the Wilson Polling data violates the trust and faith of the pilots. Period.

There is no "ramming a concessionary contract" down ANYONE'S throat. The NC and BOD determine what goes to Mem Rat.

You contradict yourself. Sounds like you shouldn't have quit your job flying the mail.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

You contradict yourself. Sounds like you shouldn't have quit your job flying the mail.

This coming from a guy/gal who has "80for80" as his screen name!

 

[gt1900]

9Capt.... Alaska had their contract shoved down their throats because they chose to go to binding arbitration, it was thier choice to do that.. BTW.. I believe they also got those $204 per hr pay raises because of binding aribitration... If we don't choose to go to binding arbitration, then guess what, the company can't shove chit down our throats that we don't vote on. You guys are all rediculous. One year ago everyone was saying the legacy's were all gonna die, now, things are turning around and everyone is saying the LCC's are gonna die.. Guess what, there are enough Pax out there for everyone, and predictions show that pax traffic could double by 2020.. I'm not sure if any of you guys know this but the airline industry is very cyclical... We just came from the worst downturn in airline history.. Besides, AAI could lose several million for 4Q and still make more than they did last year. AAI isn't gonna go anywhere in the near future.. Will the AirTran name be around forever? Maybe not, but, I would't expect the same fate as Easter, and Braniff... BTW.. We will get a contract someday. But probably not anytime soon, especially with what is going on at DAL and USAir.. AAI management is just stalling, and really, what do you expect them to do, they are in the business to keep the airline making money. And thats what they are doing. For all you guys who hate S. Kol.... I understand, but remember, he is one of the big reasons AAI paid so little for the 737's... We will get a contract, and it will probably be out of the blue and suprise the hell out of everyone when the TA is agreed to... For now, just sit back, relax, take a deep breath, and continue to fly safe....

 

[VABB]

Why do you say that? Airtran, Frontier, Southwest and Spirit were around in the 90's when the legacies were steamrolling, so they are making money again, thats great!

With the exception of Southwest, the other airlines that you mention were not around very long. If you look at the mid-90's, each of those airlines were very young and each was flying a fleet of older airplanes. AirTran and Spirit were flying older DC-9's, and Frontier had several 737-200's. Those fleets had to be updated, and that meant taking on a lot of debt to be able to do that.

The LCC's of the nineties operated smaller, older fleets over a much smaller route network. Fast-forward 10 years, and these same companies have a lot of debt because of expansion and employees remaining longer. Because of employee longevity they are demanding more pay and benefits. The fleets are more fuel efficient, but the capital required to acquire those fleets comes borrowing a lot of money.

 

[VABB]

Lear70 what a refreshing dose of reality. Making $100K per year doing something you like puts you in the upper 5% of income in the US. There are many many people out there who would love to be in that position. You fly airplanes because you like to. BTW how is a marginally profitable company supposed to make big changes?

Hey YIP,

Not every flying position pays $100K/yr. Somehow you seem to believe that's the case with every pilot out there.

At $100K/yr, that puts you approximately in the 40% tax bracket. Let's be conservative and say that 37% of that income is taxed between federal and state. The net income would be $63K/yr. Still in the upper 5%, but not exactly a pot of gold either.

Good money? It would probably be hard to argue that it isn't. But is a job with a 24-hour on-call with 20-minute response times worth it? Nope. Most people would opt to do something a little better with less pay.

 

[Lear70]

You contradict yourself. Sounds like you shouldn't have quit your job flying the mail.

Really? Sounds like you need a lesson in deductive reasoning.

The contract that is sent to the pilots for ratification is a DIRECT result of what the NC is able to get out of the company.

That's correct, and the NC and BOD have been directed by the Wilson Polling numbers not to bring a concessionary contract. Therefore, until the NC is able to get a decent contract out of the company, they are compelled not to bring it to vote.

Make sense yet, or would you like a little more education regarding the RLA and collective bargaining?

Incidentally, hauling the mail is something I wouldn't have given up except to go to the majors. If you knew anything about it, you'd know that every carrier running USPS Priority Mail was given a pink slip after FedEx was given the contract several years before it was due to be bid again.

But then again, given your knowledge of the industry, I'm not surprised you don't know that.

Reality?

The sad reality is that we've systematically had our contract dismantled over the last 5 years. Management has been using our contract as toilet paper. And in your opinion, because I make over 100K, this is acceptable?

Personally I don't like being taken advantage of regardless of how much I make. Please do us a favor and never apply to AirTran, we have enough limp wristed, company sympathizers already.

That, also, is 100% true.

It doesn't mean, however, that we're going to have a "concessionary contract rammed down our throat", it just means the company is playing hardball. Coming out of the Redtail system I'm pretty used to these kinds of games. uke:

Many of those, in and of themselves, are illegal work actions. Especially not calling for a gate, cleaning, catering, etc. Those ARE part of your job.

Show me where it says that I must do any of that in the FOM.

It's not in the FOM, it's simply something that is part of this job and the professional in me refuses to do anything less. I'll do my job 100%, but I'll also go 100% by the book, as the FAA expects me to do, and hope and expect the Captains I'm flying with to do the same.

Alaska had their contract shoved down their throats because they chose to go to binding arbitration, it was thier choice to do that.. BTW.. I believe they also got those $204 per hr pay raises because of binding aribitration... If we don't choose to go to binding arbitration, then guess what, the company can't shove chit down our throats that we don't vote on.

Exactly.

Besides, AAI could lose several million for 4Q and still make more than they did last year. AAI isn't gonna go anywhere in the near future.. Will the AirTran name be around forever? Maybe not, but, I would't expect the same fate as Easter, and Braniff.

Pretty much agree with this, too.

We will get a contract someday. But probably not anytime soon, especially with what is going on at DAL and USAir.. AAI management is just stalling, and really, what do you expect them to do, they are in the business to keep the airline making money. And thats what they are doing.

They actually have a FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY to the stockholders to do EXACTLY what they're doing... minimizing expenses for as long as they can. Every month they don't sign a contract giving us even basic COLA increases is another month at the old rates. Makes them a LOT of money, what incentive do they have to give us a new contract that costs them more?

 

[timmay]

Your family is in the minority.

Corporate Attorneys are making pretty good change, but it takes an inside contact to get one of these jobs (just like a major). VERY few do it on merit alone and if they do, they're one of the really talented attorneys who also makes a killing in the private sector doing high-power criminal defense.

The majority of attorneys doing bankruptcy practice, family law practice (divorce, wills, POA's), and state prosecutors make right around $100,000 a year and work from 7 in the morning until 6 or so at night.

Wow you should do a little research, bankruptcy and divorce lawyers make a killing.

Your close with the prosecutors in Florida they start around 35,000. But Its equivalent to getting hired at a regional with no experience,you stay a few years and get some expierence then move on to something better.

 

[Longhorn]

Wow....lear, you are on a roll today!!

As for where the money is....the divorce lawyers make it all.