Multi time building post

[ePilot22]

agpilot34,

still get to actually "fly" for a living.

I can't argue with that! Airline "flying" has become "systems management".

I dont fly ag anymore, I fly pipeline patrol now, and have for several years, so I have a good idea of what these guys down in Houston do.

And how much would your boss have paid you if I was willing to PAY to do YOUR job?


eP.

 

[agpilot34]

Dont know, but you would be suprised at how many rookie ag pilots offer to pay their own insurance, fly for a reduced rate, etc. just to try and get a foot in the door. It's a very hard profession to get started in. There's a big difference in that, and what you guys are talking about. You would never see a PFT program for ag flying. Any pilot can go jump in a twin with another pilot and go fly. Very few could go out and climb in a loaded Air Tractor solo and go fly a field without killing themselves. Couple that with the fact that a new turbine powered ag aircraft goes for a minimum of 1 million, and you wont find many operators that will put a guy in the cockpit without 1000 hrs ag time at least. Epilot, like I said, I understand what you're saying, I just dont agree with it.

 

[Flystr8]

How can

 

[gfvalvo]

Epilot, like I said, I understand what you're saying, I just dont agree with it.

And that's the simple concept that those "screaming" the loudest about this topic can't fathom. It's their way or no way.

 

[Flystr8]

While I think you are totally out to lunch on this issue, I will agree with you on the above statement. What better way to lower the cost of your company's flight department by actually duping some stupid chode into PAYING to work for you! Fargin amazing.

Well, I'm off to find someone to pay me to have the opportunity to balance my checkbook with the hopes of being an accountant some day...............

I find it very humorous that you "find me out to lunch on this issue" yet you agree with me. Isn't that what we call an oxymoron?? Im not out to lunch. Its the truth and it makes perfect sense.

 

[ePilot22]

I have absolutely no aspirations to fly for a living.

Nuf' said. Thanks for the input!

How can

Did you go out to lunch? Or do you consider this a complete thought?

Im not out to lunch. Its the truth and it makes perfect sense.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that! Maybe we'll believe it too.

Epilot, like I said, I understand what you're saying, I just dont agree with it.

Ok, I can agree to disagree. :beer:

eP.

 

[Lilah]

Lets break this down.

Company A needs some type of aircraft service which they contract to Company B for a stated price. Company B KNOWING that there are pilots out there that will do anything not to have to instruct, network or get "LUCKY" and are willing to PAY to fly their airplanes. So, Company B charges the pilots a rate to fly the aircraft and now makes money providing the aircraft services to Company A as well as having pilots PAY for the opportunity to provide the skill to fly the aircraft. Sound like good business for Company B! Maybe they should make the A&Ps pay to work on the aircraft? What happened to Company C because they were undercut by Company B and now pilots with knowledge and skill are sold short because you wanted "cheap multi time"?:erm:

No hard feelings, the intent of my postings are NOT to be hostile, but to convey my FEELINGS, THOUGHTS and OPINIONS.:beer:

epilot22,

You have done a fairly good job at describing the way a free market economy works! The value of the product Company C produces has decreased due to the increased efficiency of Company B. It's a tough pill to swallow, but hard work and investment of time/money/capital etc. is no assurance of success, as a pilot or in the business world. It's what makes America great, and the primary reason we're not speaking Russian now.

I don't like it when my employer's market is infringed on by Mesa. My solution? We make everybody's pay, from rampers to management proportional to the success of the company. That way we assure our product value and quality (a Mesa weakness) are worth, and people are willing to pay, what we negotiate.

eP, when you are flying in a crew enviroment you'll learn to become sensitive to bringing up issues of race/religion/politics/unions/ethics etc. While they can be an interesting and productive exchange of ideas, like what we do here, not everyone can separate these issues from working together in a cockpit for a month.

My free market views being what they are, I do not believe in unchecked capitalism. A company, left to it's own, will revert to a monopoly, which is not for the better good of the consumer, or employee.

I hope we haven't gotten to far away from discussing multi time .

Respectfully,

Lilah

 

[ePilot22]

Speechless....

You have done a fairly good job at describing the way a free market economy works! The value of the product Company C produces has decreased due to the increased efficiency of Company B. It's a tough pill to swallow, but hard work and investment of time/money/capital etc. is no assurance of success, as a pilot or in the business world. It's what makes America great, and the primary reason we're not speaking Russian now.

Yeah, it's a tough pill to swallow trying to understand why someone would be willing to PAY TO WORK!

I don't even know what to say.................sad, very sad!

Buy your jobs, work for GO.Jet, cross the picket line whatever it takes to build that time to get that right seat jet job, I guess!

I hope all your expections are satisfied, all that effort...nevermind, no effort was put forth.

Keep cheating and shortcutting the industry and make your excuses. But please don't complain that you don't make good money, QOL is $hit, blah, blah, blah....you earned it, in fact, you PAID for it! Remember that "cheap multi time"?

I'm a low timer, yep, those times under my name are accurate. Don't you think I want 100 hours of multi time tomorrow? I've been offered multi and even turbine time with people flying XC trips in their planes for their businesses. All they ask is that I PAY for fuel! NOPE! NO WAY! NO PFT, PFW or PFF. If they're going there anyway and going to have to pay for their own fuel then why should I pay for it? To build time? I'll work (put forth EFFORT) and if you CAN'T, WON'T understand that or agree, so be it. I'm sorry for YOUR lack of value(s).

If anyone has a problem with this or any form of paying for training, work or even fuel post it in the CARGO, REGIONAL or MAJOR forum and defend it there! I bet you won't!!! Come on, post a thread "I'm going to build my multi time by PFT" or "PFT it's for me!"

Do me one favor though, ask yourself if you'd still be willing to PAY when you have 2000, 3000 or more hours? My guess is a definite NO! So why then at 500 or 1000 hours?

eP.

 

[Lilah]

Keep cheating and shortcutting the industry and make your excuses. But please don't complain that you don't make good money, QOL is $hit, blah, blah, blah....you earned it, in fact, you PAID for it! Remember that "cheap multi time"?

Do me one favor though, ask yourself if you'd still be willing to PAY when you have 2000, 3000 or more hours? My guess is a definite NO! So why then at 500 or 1000 hours?

eP.

ePilot,

My arguement still stands. In the simplist form, supply exceeds demand. People who go to schools like the one in Oklahoma are lead to believe it's a noble career, well paid and well respected. That is not true. It is one that is shrinking in pay at most carriers. You CAN'T justify the cost of training for the return in expected pay.

No, why should a person with 3000 hours pay? They don't need the time, you know that. Why would a person with 900 hours pay? They do need the time. Would my choice have been better if I had pumped gas to pay for the time in a rental?

We ALL pay to work. We pay with our time and the training we do to get the job in the first place, you included. If your flight school needed MEIs so bad, why didn't they pay to train you?

Respectfully,

Lilah

 

[ePilot22]

Wrong part of the board!

First. Did you go to Airman? If you DIDN'T then stop TELLING me what they promised. If you DID read on...

Second. I went to Airman only for the CFI and CFII, I already had my delusions of this industry before going. They didn't promise me anything other than a CFI and CFII. I paid for a CFI and CFII, not any kind of dream or anything else. It cost $5,000. Actually $4,995. Notice the .

Third. I'm not new to flying. I've been in the game for a MORE than four years. I NEVER expected to make a fortune. If I WANTED money, I'd be a doctor, lawyer or a theif! I'm NOT! I WANT TO FLY! It's that simple.

Fourth. I'm a BUSINESS major NOT AVIATION, I UNDERSTAND how our system works, again, thanks though.

Fifth. And most important:

If anyone has a problem with this or any form of paying for training, work or even fuel post it in the CARGO, REGIONAL or MAJOR forum and defend it there! I bet you won't!!! Come on, post a thread "I'm going to build my multi time by PFT" or "PFT it's for me!"

This last quote is all I'm going to post in here any more! Quote after quote.

I'm done with this discussion. Again notice the .

eP.

 

[agpilot34]

Epilot,

This is off topic, but did you get your stuff done before the Airman bunch skipped town? I used to go in their pilot shop once in a while when I needed something. Seemed like a busy place.

 

[NYCPilot]

Airman used to be very big, twice as large as they were before they shut down. After 9-11 they down-sized dramatically. CFI classes got smaller and smaller as time went on.

 

[ePilot22]

My Story

Ok, this I have no problem taking about...

I started flying at Jefferson County Airport (BJC), Colorado in June 2001. At the age of 21. I enrolled at Metro State College of Denver for a BS in aviation technology. My first flight instructor, who earned his private pilot at BJC, but went to Airman (early 2000) for his Inst, Comm (SE and ME) CFI and CFII, told me not to get a degree in aviation. So I changed to Finance. I finished my private in Feb 2002. I started my instrument shorty after that, but my instructor was hired full time at Jeppesen and stopped instructing (Jepp is a pilot boneyard!) I continued to fly as a private pilot for the simple fact that I had a certificate, but I didn't continue with my instrument rating. I flew regularly (once or twice a month) until April 2003. I stopped flying. No money, time and a lack of progress began killing my interest. I was hired at Jeppesen in March 2004 as an intern and began flying again in May 2004. Since then I've earned my Instrument, Comm (SEL and MEL) and MEI at Jeffco. The multi ratings were added Aug. 7th and Dec. 4th respectively.

Airman was recommended to me by my first instructor. He went there when they were a brand name for a reason. I went from May 23rd to June 24 of this year. About a month after I left Airman went under. I was at Airman at the end of its life. Great or good aren't terms I'd use to discribe it at that point, althought the people I met were GREAT! But I finished my ME Comm. and MEI back home.

I have about a year left of school, so in the mean time I will instruct and take advantage of opportunities to build my KNOWLEGDE and EXPERIENCE along with my time.

I currently work at Jeppesen, it pays well and that is why pilots stay here. I'd rather be flying, broke and poor than rich, fat and unhappy! Just my opinion for my life! Ha! You can't argue that!!! Now I might in ten years, but for now it works!

I did post a question in the REGIONAL forum about life in the Airlines. My friends and fellow aviators (roughly the same time as myself) are interested in going that route, so I asked the question. Myself, I'm interested in flying freight. SPIFR! I want a challenge. I want to challenge my skill and ability and I don't think I can do that with a regional carrier, again my opinion!

So that's where I'm at now. I will continue to fly, instruct (I have three students) and progress forward.

I enjoy FlightInfo (and the "other" forum). The loss of a friend is what brought me here and with it so close to a year now I'd like to end this with a thanks.

Paul, THANK YOU! You are in our hearts and memories!

eP.

How about your stories?

 

[agpilot34]

"I'd rather be flying, broke, and poor, than rich, fat, and unhappy..."

Dude, you and I have a LOT in common in that statement!! I'm lucky enough to have a seat that pays well, and is good flying, but even if I didnt have it, I'd still rather be flying than anything else. I'd much rather be poor and look forward to going to work everyday, than have lots of money and dread every day at the office. Contrary to what alot of people have been conditioned to think, money IS NOT everything in life!

 

[gfvalvo]

.... if you CAN'T, WON'T understand that or agree, so be it. I'm sorry for YOUR lack of value(s)

No, you're sorry that somebody else's values aren't the same as yours.

 

[ePilot22]

Savings Account

No, you're sorry that somebody else's values aren't the same as yours.

Save your $.02 and invest it somewhere else.


eP.

 

[FN FAL]

Save your $.02 and invest it somewhere else.


eP.

With Mesaba FO's looking at taking a 19% pay cut, I don't think I'd be in a big hurry to spend money to buy a job.

I couldn't believe I accepted a position with them when take home pay was 500.00 every two weeks and the economy was better...now stuff costs more and they are going to have their FO's working for 400.00 every two two weeks take home.

My first CFI job was 26,000.00 a year back in 94...almost comfortable living.

My first 135 position paid 35,000.00 a year in Aztecs and Senecas.

My second 135 position started me out at 32,750.00 with only 10 work days a month, no weekends, no rons, no holidays, no pushing bad planes, no pushing bad wx.

You get what you pay for in this industry and you get paid what you are worth. If you are worth nothing, you pay to work.

I never felt more abused as when I looked at those paychecks from XJ and realized I was never going to make it financially on 1,000 a month take home.

On a side note, I built my multi time by buying a twin with partners. It cost money, but my day job employer reimbursed me for every hour we flew in my twin for company purposes. Would I recommend buying a twin? Depends. Is buying a twin to log time the same as buying time? Depends.

When I flew outside of my day job, I flew where I wanted to go and with whom I wanted to fly. Those trips with friends and family are memories the time builder paying to fly pipline patrol will never be able to share with their passengers years up the road...unless they gay marry the guy they flew them with.

 

[agpilot34]

Hmm... Pretty bad when the baggage handlers and line guys make more take home than the friggin FO on the jet. $400 every two weeks? Are you serious? Hell, you might as well be paying them to fly, if that's what the pay is.

 

[ePilot22]

I couldn't say it any better!

FN FAL!

You get what you pay for in this industry and you get paid what you are worth. If you are worth nothing, you pay to work.

EXACTLY! You hit the nail :smash: on the head!

Those trips with friends and family are memories the time builder paying to fly pipline patrol will never be able to share with their passengers years up the road...unless they gay marry the guy they flew them with.

HAHAHAHAHA! :laugh:

I don't think "gay" and "pipeline patrol" should be used in the same sentence. Not that there's anything wrong with being gay. Just don't pay to fly the pipeline patrol! :erm:


eP.

 

[FN FAL]

that's just it e-pilot, my buying in with partners on a twin could be consdered the same as renting or paying for time at this pipline job...or maybe not.

Getting multi time can be biatch. It was a lot of work owning a twin with a couple of crooks. Id say that my 270 hours of C-320 time cost me about 10,000.00 bucks out of pocket. However, my employer paid my salary while I flew on company business...so maybe my multi time really cost less than 10K.

Needless to say, that's how I was able to get a job that started out in the mid thirties flying piston twins in 135 pax operations. My first 135 checkouts were Seneca, Aztec and C-310 R. We did my first 135 ride in the C-310 R and it was just like being at home. Before I knew it, I was in the 414, 340 and Navajo. Right seating in the Citation came soon after that and of course King Air F90/B100 and Conquest FO trips were thrown at me all the time as well.

On the right seat t-prop spots, all of them were insurance requirement flights...but they paid the same as my piston PIC flying. 150 a day plus 400 a month base...medical, dental, vacation, perdiem.