Multi time building post

[ePilot22]

if TIS tells me there is a clear cut line between the two.. ill back off... otherwise...fo...

MAS, check this link:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=67741


If you what to hear from TIS, you'll have to go where the weather is better.


:uzi: PFW

I think (my feeling here) that the difference is when I buy my BE76, PA44 whatever multi time, I fly where and when I want. These guys here put you to WORK. You fly their schedule and their routes. Try taking their twin to XZY airport or something, I'll bet they won't let you. Are you "pay for training"? Not training, but you're paying to work hence PFW, just as bad as PFT! NO-GO!

eP.

 

[aeronautic1]

If it was an Astec, then that would be a pretty good a/c to learn in. The website says they fly twin comanchee... weeeeee!!!!!

Slick airplane! I did my multiengine training in a B.

If I didn't had anything to do for a couple of months, had the do-ray-me and I was light on twin time, then I would go fly the PA30. $35 an hour sounds pretty good to me.

Just like mom and pop flight schools instead of prredatory flight academies, no one cares where you build your time.

It's your money. Spend it wisely.

 

[Lilah]

I have something to contribute here. A couple of years ago I participated in the program.

Here’s a little backround. It was less than a year since 9/11, and jobs were hard to come by.. I was flight instructing at a small school that didn’t have a twin. I also pumped gas and flew traffic, as well as ferry flights whenever the chance offered itself. My TT was a little under 1000 with 18 multi. Although I knew my chances of finding a 135 VFR job were slim, I nevertheless had sent out more than a few resumes. My chances of finding a multi job were slim indeed.

I called two buddies who lived in Texas and were familiar with the program. They both endorsed it and it seemed like the most reasonable way to increase my multi experience. For a little less than a month in Texas I could raise my TT close to IFR 135 times and make myself more attractive to any employer multi wise.

The flying was actually pretty fun. It’s not a whole lot different than flying traffic, but the scenery was a little different. It was an interesting balance of flying high for safety and efficiency reasons, and flying low when the weather required it. It was also my first time in an ADIZ. I had previously assumed it was a line and not an area. Anyway, my “can do” attitude seemed to be a good fit.

As luck would have it, within two months of my return from Texas, two freight jobs were offered to me simultaneously. The first was in a Metro, the other in a small jet. I took the latter job, but there was certainly no SJS, other factors played a bigger role in decision. Neither job would have been offered if my logbook didn’t reflect my time in Galveston.

It was a positive experience for me. To those that would damn my choice, I strongly support your right to have your opinion, but it was my choice to make. My alternatives? Ditch my employer, go to another flight school, and instruct at (maybe) 50 hours/year. Two other choices were economically not available to me…spend $15,000 on aircraft rental, or buying a plane. I have known people to do each of these.

It was my choice to make, and I have been forthcoming during interviews with respect to my multi time and it hasn’t been a problem. I no longer fly freight, but my 900 hours in the trade was something I’m glad I had the chance to do.

Lilah

PS. Not that it makes any difference, but I did interview with Mesa for the practice and turned the job offer down…

 

[MAS]

good post

 

[ePilot22]

It’s not a whole lot different than flying traffic

Did you pay to fly traffic too?

 

[agpilot34]

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Did you pay to fly traffic too?

SO, how'd you build your multi time? $200 hamburger trips in a rented twin? Squeaking by for several years trying to build enough multi time for 135 IFR mins. by instructing? Seems to me that YOU guys are the ONLY ones that care where someone gets their time at... most employers I know sure dont, as long as you've got it. You know, the majority of students don't have Mommy and Daddy to wipe their a$$es and fork out cash for training every time they wimper like some others do. I know several guys I went through flight school with that struggled as instructors for 2 or 3 YEARS before they got to 100 multi. What did they learn? flying around the practice area in the right seat and instructing. Not saying it's not a good way to build time IF you are in a position that has the capacity to get you that time. $3500 for 100 hours of multi is unheard of in ANY twin, much less a Twin Comanche. If I were at a point that I needed to build some multi time quick, I would jump on this in a heartbeat. It's one thing to call someone a "PFT Whore" on an internet website... it's a bit different to call them that to their face.

 

[PilotB]

You people are freaking dense. This is PFT/PFW. They fly this operation out of Houston and they are REQUIRED to have two pilots by their employers. Attitudes like this are the reason that pilots are making $17,000 a year to fly jets. Nobody is saying have Mommy and Daddy pay for it but don't be a little whore and go pay for a seat someone should be earning wages to fill.

Hey I gotta an idea agpilot, I know this great place where you can pay $35,000 and sit in the right seat of a B1900. If I wanted some 121 time quick, I would jump all over this deal. Quit screwing the rest of us and paying for a job.

 

[ePilot22]

PFT what?

It's one thing to call someone a "PFT Whore" on an internet website... it's a bit different to call them that to their face.

When and where did I say that? And calm down tough guy....deep breaths!

I think (my feeling here) that the difference is when I buy my BE76, PA44 whatever multi time, I fly where and when I want. These guys here put you to WORK. You fly their schedule and their routes. Try taking their twin to XZY airport or something, I'll bet they won't let you. Are you "pay for training"? Not training, but you're paying to work hence PFW, just as bad as PFT! NO-GO!

Nowhere in that post do I see or read the words "PFT Whore"?

You know, the majority of students don't have Mommy and Daddy to wipe their a$$es and fork out cash for training every time they wimper like some others do.

Hey Dad, I need some money so I can go pay to work!

SO, how'd you build your multi time? $200 hamburger trips in a rented twin? Squeaking by for several years trying to build enough multi time for 135 IFR mins. by instructing?

Yes, yes and yes. It's called paying MY dues! If fact I just EARNED my MEI yesterday! And I WILL be instructing in it, thanks.

Oh, and I WORK for every dollar and minute of flight time, but I don't say that because YOU judge how people build their time.

All I asked was if they paid to fly traffic.

But here ya go: http://www.keylimeair.com/sic.asp. Spend it wisely!

eP.

 

[NYCPilot]

I just watched the "SIC program" video...hilarious footage and narration. What a ridiculous program.

 

[gfvalvo]

Yes, yes and yes. It's called paying MY dues!

So where is it written that everyone has to build time in the same way?

Oh, and I WORK for every dollar and minute of flight time, but I don't say that because YOU judge how people build their time.

Seems like you're the one doing the judging.

 

[Steve]

I just watched the "SIC program" video...hilarious footage and narration. What a ridiculous program.

Could the music be any gayer? and whats with the stupid b*tch saying "logged Mult-eye engine time"

 

[NYCPilot]

man, thats a lot of cash to drop on some multi time. I'd be pretty embarassed to be the "new guy" who spent tens of thousands of dollars to be told when to sling the gear. They must all laugh at these guys behind their back.

 

[MAS]

Yes, yes and yes. It's called paying MY dues! If fact I just EARNED my MEI yesterday! And I WILL be instructing in it, thanks.

epilot...
not everyone can be so lucky as to get a job with their mei only getting it yesterday... 3500 is a lot chaper than the cost of moving to a place where one might have to move to get a job instructing as a newly minted mei...

and for those that look at it as PTW... no its not... you are paying for time...
if me going to fly for them to build that time keeps one pilot (you) from getting a job... ill just chalk you up as my "one little sacrifice"...

( this is where you go into your rant of sanctimonious platitudes about how this is the reason the industry has gone to poo... ) i disagree in this one multi time building instance...

as i have repeated over and over... there is no way i would spend one dime over 3,500 dollars for multi time... when the opportunity for me to pay 3,500 is out there for the taking...

would i pay 7,000 for 200 hours... heck no... because only 100 is needed for me to get on the insurance for an mei job...

dang this phenegran has got me loopy...

 

[ePilot22]

Wow!

So where is it written that everyone has to build time in the same way?

I think you might have missed understood the word "MY", as it pertains to ME! I didn't say EVERYONE had to build their time this way, just "MY" which is limilted to only ME, MYSELF or I. Hope that hepls with your confusion.

epilot...
not everyone can be so lucky as to get a job with their mei only getting it yesterday...

Again, I DIDN'T say that, you DID! This is what I said:

If fact I just EARNED my MEI yesterday! And I WILL be instructing in it, thanks.

Note the "WILL" be instructing part of that quote. I didn't say I AM instructing in the multi.

as i have repeated over and over... there is no way i would spend one dime over 3,500 dollars for multi time... when the opportunity for me to pay 3,500 is out there for the taking...

MEI, it pays for itself, in fact, people will PAY YOU to teach them how to fly a twin. BONUS: You build multi time at NO COST! Imagine that.....

Sure beats you're $3,500 to work huh?

But seriously, I have to fly a couple of people from point A to point B next weekend in the twin, hows' about you pay me to let you fly them?

Hmmm.....just make the check payable to Tom Sawyer.



eP.

 

[imacdog]

and for those that look at it as PTW... no its not... you are paying for time...quote]

If you were paying for time, they'd say "Here's the keys. Plane's due back in a couple hours." You then get to do whatever you want with your time.

MAS, you should try getting a real flying job some time. Getting paid to fly is a pretty nice gig. Then again, maybe someone who can't distinguish between paying to work and renting a plane probably shouldn't be in charge of people's lives anyway.

 

[MAS]

epilot...wow... i know what having an mei ticket does chief... i also know that under some...certain... most???... instances insurance requirements dictate when you may instruct as an employee in a twin that they hold dear to their pocketbook... and if you dont meet those requirements... you are stuck flying the 182's and the 210's and the t-41s and the SINGLE commanche... and the 175... you get the picture... the mei most certainly does not pay for itself if you never get "lucky" enough to find someone to let you bounce around in theirs to get enough time to instruct... as for your point a to b trip next weekend... no thanks... ill have made enough money in the first three days of next week to where i think ill take the weekend off...

imacdog... i have a "real flying" job...
and technically... if you pay for 100 hours of time... and you leave with 100 hours of time... you have just bought yourself 100 hours of time... the end... if you want nothing more than 100 hours and the experience (whatever it may be)...and you dont give a damn where you go...then everyone wins...

haha...and the personal shots over the internet are great...

 

[agpilot34]

We'll see how Epilot feels about that shiny new MEI rating when, a year from now, he's STILL riding around in the right seat of a Duchess, toodling around the practice area, STILL trying to break the 100 hours mark. Flying around in that big ole Duchess... yeah buddy, that's paying your dues, alright!

By the way, the PFT whore comment was directed at the Imacpup. Seems he is the self proclaimed expert on whores, considering the number of times I've seen him post that same tired comment. Honestly, this place is unf#cking believable sometimes.

 

[ePilot22]

Cheap Multi Time

Ok MAS,

Lets break this down.

Company A needs some type of aircraft service which they contract to Company B for a stated price. Company B KNOWING that there are pilots out there that will do anything not to have to instruct, network or get "LUCKY" and are willing to PAY to fly their airplanes. So, Company B charges the pilots a rate to fly the aircraft and now makes money providing the aircraft services to Company A as well as having pilots PAY for the opportunity to provide the skill to fly the aircraft. Sound like good business for Company B! Maybe they should make the A&Ps pay to work on the aircraft? What happened to Company C because they were undercut by Company B and now pilots with knowledge and skill are sold short because you wanted "cheap multi time"?:erm:

CHEAP MULTI TIME, kinda like "EASY MONEY"? Multi time is expensive for a reason. It's highly DESIRED time!

That $35 an hour price tag is what you pay, the other $100 an hour is what the industry PAYS because you are draggin' it down! The cost is made up somewhere, out of somebody's pocket.

But just in case this doesn't make sense , here is why:

FOI, Chapter 2, page 2-3;

RATIONALIZATION: This device permits them (PFTers, my word not the FAA) to subtitute excuses for reasons; moreover, they can make those excuses plausible and acceptable to themselves. Rationalization IS a subconscious technique for justifying actions that otherwise would be UNacceptable. When true rationalization takes place, individuals sincerely believe in their excuses. The excuses SEEM real and justifiable to the individual.

NOTE: the word/term "YOU" is used loosely and not directed towards MAS nor any other reader. Any word/term such as "PILOT", "AIRMAN" etc. would work just as well. This is NOT intended to be a personal attack!

EFFORT! Put forth some and you may get more than you expect. One can purchase opportunity or work towards it, I'LL select the latter.

Of course, this is only how I FEEL and I can only hope that compaines like this (KeySlime:smash: , ME.net:smash: blah, blah, blah...) would RESPECT the industry they participate in and QUIT "offering" these types of programs. Wont' happen until pilots STOP paying to train/work! You have a skill, sell it, don't buy it!!

No hard feelings, the intent of my postings are NOT to be hostile, but to convey my FEELINGS, THOUGHTS and OPINIONS.:beer:


eP.

 

[ePilot22]

Yeah, this place......

Honestly, this place is unf#cking believable sometimes.

I think it's your attitude, not this place!

We'll see how Epilot feels about that shiny new MEI rating when, a year from now, he's STILL riding around in the right seat of a Duchess, toodling around the practice area, STILL trying to break the 100 hours mark. Flying around in that big ole Duchess... yeah buddy, that's paying your dues, alright!

First, you should be thankful that someone was willing to "ride around in the right seat of a duchess, toodling around the practice area" with you! Thank your MEI! He or she put forth an effort you apparently are NOT willing to do.

However, this "toodling" in the practice area not only builds my time, but it builds my SKILL and KNOWLEDGE and keeps money in my pocket! Not a lot by any means, but I'm not PAYING to work.

Check in a year, see how I feel and where I'm at. And I'll tell you what, if I hear of any multi jobs that require you to pay to train/work them, I'll PM you. Sound good?

eP.

 

[ePilot22]

Help I'm in a single and I can't get out!!!

you are stuck flying the 182's and the 210's and the t-41s and the SINGLE commanche... and the 175... you get the picture...

I'm sorry you feel this way. I personally enjoy flight and flying. The Cessna 152 is my favorite airplane, but I don't expect you to understand that.

STUCK? Yeah, life must be so rough, you're STUCK flying an aircraft, please.

Good Luck, which by the way LUCK is when preperation meets opportunity!

Ms. Preperation meet Mr. Opportunity.......oh look........LUCK!


eP.

 

[imacdog]

Honestly, this place is unf#cking believable sometimes.

It is. We actually have people justifying the idea of working for less than free.

 

[agpilot34]

I think it's your attitude, not this place!



First, you should be thankful that someone was willing to "ride around in the right seat of a duchess, toodling around the practice area" with you! Thank your MEI! He or she put forth an effort you apparently are NOT willing to do.
eP.

My MEI was an older gentleman that had a little over 12,000 hrs of multi time. He instructed part time because he wanted to, not because he had to. Dont think I ever said I would not be WILLING to instruct... I simply CHOSE not to. And just in case you're wondering, I paid FULL price for my multi rating and all the multi time I've gotten since (with the exception of some Seneca time I occasionally get for free)... $175/hr for a Seminole, and a bit more than that for the 310R. Got a little under 200 hours of multi time now, so you do the math. Paying to work somewhere? Sorry, but for the wage they pay you guys to instruct, you might as well be paying them.

Nothing wrong with my attitude at all, bud. What gets on my nerves is a bunch of self righteous a$$holes that look down their little noses at ANYONE who even THINKS about getting some time by ANY other means than how THEY did it. Bottom line is, it's THEIR decision, not yours, mine, or anyone elses. If you dont agree with it, fine, that's your God given right. But stop chastizing these guys by acting like your $hit doesnt stink and they are scum sucking bottom dwellers just because they CHOSE not to spend endless amounts of time trying to build 100 hours of multi time by instructing. That first 100 hours of multi time is hard to come by for most. It's expensive, even more so now with fuel prices like they are. The instructors that hold MEI around here that I know have told me several times that their ratio of single instruction to multi instruction is around 10:1... 10 hours of instructing in the 152 or 172 for every 1 hour of instructing in a multi. That's 100 hours of bouncing around in the right seat of a Skyhawk for every precious hour they get to spend in the right seat of a Duchess. Doesnt get much better at a 141 school (when I went to Spartan, they had TWO Duchesses in the whole school), unless you are lucky enough to get on with a school that specializes in multi training, like ATPS or someone like that. Even then, you will spend a bunch of time in the singles as opposed to the multis. Paying your dues? Please, grow up! Never have I seen ANY regulation in the FAR's, or anything in the AIM, or anything in ANY company's hiring guidelines that say "an airman must have spent X amount of time "paying his dues" before he can work for this company" Dude, this isn't the music business in Nashville. Honestly, if this program had been around right after I got my multi, I would have jumped on it in a heartbeat. Would have saved me about 10 grand over the course of a few years. If that would have made me a "pft whore", then put my a$$ on the streetcorner. I would have laughed at you guys all the way to the bank with the money I saved. The bottom line is, YOU GUYS are the only ones that care where a guy gets his time at. The employers who are hiring do not, as long as you meet the minimums and are capable. But, hey, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[ePilot22]

Ok, try this.....

Agpilot34,

I don't know what to tell you man. If YOU can't understand it then try this....

Find a nice solid concrete wall, stand 10ft away, lower your head and run towards it. Repeat several times or until unconscious.

Have fun, BUD!

BTW, you're right! PFTers aren't whores! A whore wouldn't pay to have sex! PFTers are johns/janes, keep in mind they are paying for something that is free.

And it is YOUR attitude!


eP.

 

[agpilot34]

I understand just fine what your saying. Just dont agree with it. If that indicates a problem with MY attitude, so be it. There's a big difference between respectfully disagreeing with someone's decisions, and chastizing them to the point they feel like if they make that choice, they are lower than $hit and dont deserve to be in the business. Some of you Joe superpilots that are so quick to spurn someone's choices need to learn that. (not necessarily directed at you)

 

[MAS]

ill repeat myself one more time... but this is the last comment on the issue for me...

Incase you missed my previous posts... i do not agree with pft or even pay for work... outfits like gulfstream...air cargo carriers.... etc etc... not a fan... in these places...one is paying (lots of) thousands of dollars to buy a job... that they could eventually have after a few years of instructing and paying dues...

in the case of the 3,500 dollars for the multi time... this is a wise business decision if you are going to pay for 100 hours somewhere... hmm... am i going to travel anywhere in the united states to rent an airplane at 4 times the cost of what i could get it somewhere else? no... i am not... i do not care what you or anyone else says... if you would pay more money for the same 100 hours somewhere else out of the goodness of your heart (for the sake of the industry) then so be it... you are bigger than me...

epilot.... before you start drawing conclusions... please focus on the topic before you... we are talking about multi time...and the means to build multi time... when one does not have sufficient multi time to get on the insurance... they are IN ESSENCE.... STUCK flying the singles... this does not mean i do not enjoy it... crap man... i used to work line service dumping poopers... i will gladly bounce around in a single all day...and dont speak to me about preparation... you dont know me...

 

[imacdog]

The third option of course is to get a job that does not require 100 hours of multi. I listed several companies earlier that do this, and those didn't take much effort to find.

MAS, if the companies you listed above have a PFT program, then they are no better than this multi engine deal. However, most people have the basic intelligence to realize that paying for time while working for a company is still paying for work. Even if it's a temp job.

 

[ePilot22]

...?

epilot.... before you start drawing conclusions... please focus on the topic before you... we are talking about multi time...and the means to build multi time... when one does not have sufficient multi time to get on the insurance... they are IN ESSENCE.... STUCK flying the singles... this does not mean i do not enjoy it... crap man... i used to work line service dumping poopers... i will gladly bounce around in a single all day...and dont speak to me about preparation... you dont know me...

MAS...rationalize anything you want...it only makes sense...to you...the multi time...we...are talking about...is hurting our industry...what's with all the...

I never claimed...to know you...did I?


...eP...

NOTE: 135 IFR Mins does NOT require mutli time! RamAir actually prefers low-time multi pilots. Ya know....they PAY their pilots to fly...too.

 

[Lilah]

ePilot22,

In the past I followed an interesting thread you started about the life of a regional airline pilot and your aspirations. If you want, PM me, and maybe I can help fill in a few of your questions, as that's what I do now, for a "respectable" company. The thread was very constructive for anyone considering a future in the trade.

Many are dismayed at the downward spiral of respect/QOL/pay etc. at the regionals and in the pilot trade as a whole. Sadly, I personally think it's a reflection of our capitalist society, supply and demand. I HONESTLY think the senior people in our trade had the advantage of being at the right place at the right time. The schools such as the one in Oklahoma you went to for your CFI training market the life of a pilot as a desirable one, and therefore benifit from it.

It's clear you like to fly, and you've said so in the past. Actually, I still do too. In fact, it's something (among other things), I do in my time off, still instructing. It's important for future airmen to admit to themselves, the future is not likely to be as rosey as the past. If you're in it for the money, you've made a poor choice, just like a teacher, Catholic priest, or some other "noble" profession.

Let me ask you a question. Would your opinion of my choice be different if I had pumped more gas (my main source of income at the time), and bought the time as a rental @ $130/hr?

A rational person cannot justify the cost of training for the pay of a regional carrier. If you don't mind my asking, how have you paid for your flight training to date, and has it been a cost effective for your income now? Do you believe you believe you'll make enough at a regional to make your choice a "wise" one, or is dependent on making it to the $$ of a major. Did the school you went to lead you to believe that training with them was a smart and cost effective way to a better job? They probably did, and I would disagree with the conclusions they came to, as they profit based on the choice you make as a customer, not your final outcome.

agpilot34, I've met several pilots in your trade with over 20,000 hrs doing thankless, hazardous work. My hat's off to you. BTW, where's the "34" come from?

Same question to epilot22. Is the "22" birthday inspired?

Respectfully,

Lilah


PS. epilot22, was your suggestion inspired by a certain Warron Zevon song? If you haven't heard it, I suggest downloading "Ain't that pretty at all", it's one of my favorites...

PPS. I did have an app in with RamAir at the time, and a connection through a former pilot...it didn't help....

 

[ePilot22]

Nice Post!

Lilah,

It's important for future airmen to admit to themselves, the future is not likely to be as rosey as the past.

Isn't that the truth!!!

Would your opinion of my choice be different if I had pumped more gas (my main source of income at the time), and bought the time as a rental @ $130/hr?

Sorry to answer a question with one, but...

Would you rather take a PAYING job from a qualified pilot that has the time, knowledge and skill to be PAID to fly? The cost comes from somewhere, that's all I'm saying. Everything has a price (a full price)!

If a customer wanted premium gas for the cost of regular would you have pumped it for them? Multi time cost big $$$ for a reason!

EDIT: even better, what if someone else offered to PAY your boss for the opportunity to pump gas for them? Now how would you gain experience pumping gas OR PAY the bills?

It doesn't make sense...........PAYING TO WORK! "You" are paying to do a job! Building time is a result of that job, not the benefit.

If you don't mind my asking, how have you paid for your flight training to date, and has it been a cost effective for your income now?

Not at all! I've worked, construction to corporate jobs. 40hrs a week! Mommy and Daddy DON'T have the money. I drive a POS car and have made many sacrifices and I'm willing to make more. If I want a nice income and big house, cars and all the other stuff, I'd stay right where I'm at now, but "I'd Rather Be Flying"!

Same question to epilot22. Is the "22" birthday inspired?

Yep! The 22nd day of September!

Again, nice post! I may take you up on the offer to PM, thanks.

eP.

NOTE: the "e" is because I work at a company the does electronic charting, well, really all types of charting!

 

[agpilot34]

Lilah,

Yup, the 34 was my age when I started posting here. Thanks for the words of appreciation. I dont fly ag anymore, I fly pipeline patrol now, and have for several years, so I have a good idea of what these guys down in Houston do. Honestly, the allure of the regionals escapes me totally. Why would anyone want to bust their butt building time and ratings, instructing for years or whatever, to go to a regional airline as an FO, and make less money than an assistant manager at McDonalds? Just to say "Hey, I fly a jet and get to wear a uniform"? It is really sad the way these guys get treated. I made more money and had better benefits my FIRST year horsing a Skylane around flying pipeline patrol than one of my best friends does after flying for FOUR YEARS with ASA!! Guess I'm lucky, I make good money and still get to actually "fly" for a living.