More Union Busting at NWA

[Lucky Strike]

The American flying public will soon get the pilots they pay for.

 

[FN FAL]

Y'all voted for George Bush! What did you expect?

What did I expect? I expected Bush to let the 1994 Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act sunset and he did. I got what I paid for.

Next time you lefties support a presidential candidate that gets on national TV and says, "I don't need an AK-47 to shoot ducks!" expect to lose the election AGAIN.

 

[dashocho]

Politics

As you can see, I rarely post here, but I am curious how Gore or Kerry would have changed things. The laws are all in place, but somehow it is the evil George Bush that gets the finger here. What law did he enact or create during his time in office that made it worse? What law would Gore or Kerry have personally made to fix all the problems overnight? Who let Comair strike and who forced AA to return to work? Democrat or Republican whoever is in office nothing would have changed. Democrats try hard to show they walk the middle line(the day of the far left democrat is dead), while republicans do the same(while having to cater to the Christian Coalition(they just don't get it)). I do vote republican and my only extra tidbit to add would be the extra moaning from everyone when paycuts come and tax increases were added as well by Gore, Kerry, or both.

Bottom line is we need to stick together in this tough time offer support, unity, not finger pointing. It does no good.

While everyone is worrying about the problem, managements are forcing their solutions on their workgroups.

 

[fifty30retard]

All you Republican bashers might want to check your facts on NWA. Both Al Checchi and Wilson are Democrats, in fact Al Checci ran for the Democratic nomination for Governor of California against Grayout Davis. NWA's top lobbyist in DC just happens to be the wife of former Senator Tom Daschle of South Dakota (she was working for NWA while he was majority leader as well). Also when Clinton had his big BBQ fundraiser a few years back (the one where Robin Williams made butt out of himself) the two big corporate sponsors were NWA and Delta. ......

Say it isn't so. The democrats are always for the poor little union worker. Aren't they?
Perhaps it's no coincidence Clinton let NWA strike under his watch but not AA?
It's all part of the vast left wing conspiracy. Hmmmm....

 

[FN FAL]

As you can see, I rarely post here, but I am curious how Gore or Kerry would have changed things. The laws are all in place, but somehow it is the evil George Bush that gets the finger here. What law did he enact or create during his time in office that made it worse? What law would Gore or Kerry have personally made to fix all the problems overnight? Who let Comair strike and who forced AA to return to work? Democrat or Republican whoever is in office nothing would have changed. Democrats try hard to show they walk the middle line(the day of the far left democrat is dead), while republicans do the same(while having to cater to the Christian Coalition(they just don't get it)). I do vote republican and my only extra tidbit to add would be the extra moaning from everyone when paycuts come and tax increases were added as well by Gore, Kerry, or both.

Bottom line is we need to stick together in this tough time offer support, unity, not finger pointing. It does no good.

While everyone is worrying about the problem, managements are forcing their solutions on their workgroups.

The Office of Independent Council Report of 1987 proves that both sides are corrupt as organized crime can get, but when someone proposes a "rights for jobs" campaign...duhhhhh!

Kerry would have sold rights of the people for jobs at the airlines? A flawed analogy for sure.

And no daschocho...I'm not jumping on you...I'm agreeing with you.

A president that runs on the premise of ensuring rights are going to be curtailed is not the president for this country, pro labor or not.

And if you don't think the Second Amendment isn't an important right in the scope of labor v. jobs, take a look at the Matewan Masacre and the use of the Black Legion by Dupont and General Motors in an effort to quash unions and people fighting for workers rights.

 

[mdanno808]

Any predictions on what the rest of NWA's unions will do? I would imagine there must be some serious strike talk going down at the AFA right?

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Any predictions on what the rest of NWA's unions will do? I would imagine there must be some serious strike talk going down at the AFA right?

It's actually the PFAA, and considering that unit is about to loose ALL of the International flying to Asian nationals for 8 bucks an hour and no benefits, you would think that the senior girls would probably be ready to quit anyway so why not strike? They would just be ordered back to work by the BK judge, but why not stick it in and break it off before you leave?

 

[castle bravo]

you would think that the senior girls would probably be ready to quit anyway so why not strike?



I wonder if ALPA will support THIS one??

 

[MECH]

Clinton did force the AA pilots back to work. But Bush had not appointed any new members to the NMB when the Comair strike occured. The people he has appointed to the NMB are very anti labor. In a job were you need a neutral party to over see negotiations we have some one very biased towards the companies position.

This has hurt all transportation unions!!! If you do some research the people that Bush has appointed to the NMB do not have the best qualifications for this position. Much like the person he put in charge of FEMA. It is time that these positions are filled with professionals and not people that are being rewarded for political favors.

 

[coolyokeluke]

Wrong again!

Maybe you'd care to expand on this? While there are Americans working on Amercian merchant ships, the percentage of cargo that is imported/exported on American flagged/crewed ships slipped to under 7% a few years ago. Most of the merchant marine these days falls into two categories 1) military cargoes-military sealift command MSC or 2) Jones Act shipping, that is shipping that is protected by cabotage laws, shipping from US port to US port.

While I admire some of the independence from the Karl Rove school of thought and pluck that John McCain has exhibited, he'd like to impose user fees on general aviation and do away with the Jones Act. That would essentially kill off the rest of the US Merchant Marine and then it'd affect our business. Want China Airlines flying folks from LA to New York? Most every country has cabotage laws, why should we fall on our sword and let our transportation industries go down in our home markets.

 

[FN FAL]

Clinton did force the AA pilots back to work. But Bush had not appointed any new members to the NMB when the Comair strike occured. The people he has appointed to the NMB are very anti labor. In a job were you need a neutral party to over see negotiations we have some one very biased towards the companies position.

This has hurt all transportation unions!!! If you do some research the people that Bush has appointed to the NMB do not have the best qualifications for this position. Much like the person he put in charge of FEMA. It is time that these positions are filled with professionals and not people that are being rewarded for political favors.

Hey liberal dude, where were you when International Paper was locking out it's unions in the name of outsourcing and global competition back in the 80's?

I know where you were, you were a gleam in your mom and dad's eyes when that liberal lake woebegone ass Garrison Keilor was making the IP commercials on TV, while IP locked it's papermakers out of jobs.

Welcome to the 1980's dude.

 

[Master Shake]

NWA pilots and F/As refused to support the Mechanics. Way to go guys, I'm sure your managment appreciates your lack of involvement. Fecal matter rolls downhill. NWA is fast becoming a boil on the derriere of aviation.

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Master Shake,
What is becoming a boil on the a$$ of aviation is everybody blaiming everybody else for the fact that "our profession" is going down hill. I see you are an rj pilot. You have 1600 hours so you have been flying for a couple years. You fly people around in 50 seat jets taking miserable pay in the hopes that you can take my job (which you could certainly do--no doubt about it) and make a decent wage with benefits. Because we pilots at NWA listened to ALPA (remember this is our labor union) and did not strike, you call us names having done no research on how this came down.
I've got to tell you that from my perspective, fecal matter rolls uphill.

 

[turbodriver]

Gotta love the Republicans! Bust those unions!

You voted for them. So shut your trap.

 

[turbodriver]

As you can see, I rarely post here, but I am curious how Gore or Kerry would have changed things. The laws are all in place, but somehow it is the evil George Bush that gets the finger here. What law did he enact or create during his time in office that made it worse?

How about the bankruptcy laws that have gone into effect that are essentially corprate welfare that allows dead corporations to operate and "compete.

You idiots at NWA deserve what you get.

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Turbodriver,
I think you need to look at the BK laws that have been signed into law under the Bush admin. These are the tough laws that Delta and NWA are trying to avoid. These are anti corporate welfare laws. I do not mind you bashing Bush if you can back it up but that one was a non starter. I am at NWA and calling us idiots and telling us we get what we deserve seems to need more explanation.

 

[turbodriver]

Hey Turbodriver,
I think you need to look at the BK laws that have been signed into law under the Bush admin. These are the tough laws that Delta and NWA are trying to avoid. These are anti corporate welfare laws. I do not mind you bashing Bush if you can back it up but that one was a non starter. I am at NWA and calling us idiots and telling us we get what we deserve seems to need more explanation.

You want an explination? Ok. In short, you guys should have supported your mechanics. By not doing so, you and every other union at NWA sent a message to management that "union busting is ok."

Therefore, you get what you deserve.

 

[TurboAWD]

I'm for union solidarity, etc...

And I hate the Walmartification of the US workplace....

BUT

AMFA was on crack. NW would dissapear completely if it was required to keep paying aircraft cleaners the kind of wages and bennies that they were getting, and the mechanics contiuned to be as unproductive as they were.

Granted, NW management are a bunch of pricks, but things have to change dramaticly. It would be nice if this was more like AA, but it's not. Then perhaps the other unions would have joined the pilots to make some changes to save everyones jobs. But they didn't.

If the pilots supported AMFA, NW would have declared Ch11 the same day, and AMFA still would have lost their ass. Some of them would have kept their jobs, however. But that was AMFA leaderships choice to loose everyones job AND the severence package.

 

[Master Shake]

Hey Master Shake,
What is becoming a boil on the a$$ of aviation is everybody blaiming everybody else for the fact that "our profession" is going down hill. I see you are an rj pilot. You have 1600 hours so you have been flying for a couple years. You fly people around in 50 seat jets taking miserable pay in the hopes that you can take my job (which you could certainly do--no doubt about it) and make a decent wage with benefits. Because we pilots at NWA listened to ALPA (remember this is our labor union) and did not strike, you call us names having done no research on how this came down.
I've got to tell you that from my perspective, fecal matter rolls uphill.

I've done my homework. There is bad blood between the mechanics and pilots. It's really too bad...but in times like these unity between employees should matter more. NWA ALPA made a poor choice by not supporting the mechanics. Your management is slowly dismantling your airline. That is truly tragic.

I've called no one names, so let's keep facts straight. I earn a decent living and have good QOL. Don't think that eveyone in my position wants YOUR job. I sure don't.

 

[Master Shake]

You want an explination? Ok. In short, you guys should have supported your mechanics. By not doing so, you and every other union at NWA sent a message to management that "union busting is ok."

Therefore, you get what you deserve.

This statement hits the nail on the head.

 

[Deli Guy]

Quote by turbodriver:
You want an explination? Ok. In short, you guys should have supported your mechanics. By not doing so, you and every other union at NWA sent a message to management that "union busting is ok."
Therefore, you get what you deserve.
Hey Turbo driver,
You are wrong. The decision to not support AMFA was started over 2 years ago when ALPA tried to work with AMFA and the PFAA on a group plan that would have put all the unions in lock step. NW ALPA paid big bucks to accounting firms and lawyers to find the best path. Sadly, that path included paycuts for all. When AMFA and PFAA heard that, these two "startup" unions (previously represented by Teamsters and the IAM) simply ignored the philosophy that saved the company in 93'--stick together.
AMFA was wildly militant. They started raving about no pay cuts and demanded that mechanics needed to get a raise to $100k per year. ALPA tried on numerous occasions (publicly and privately) to get AMFA back to Earth with no avail. AMFA further signaled to NWA mgment that it wanted to be raped and then murdered by publicly denouncing NW ALPA as "not a working partner in" their negotiating. Are you starting to get the picture Turbodriver? The Antelope on the National Geographic specials that is cut off by the pack. NW ALPA has a history of winning sword fights with NW management since 1929. I have to tell you that with a track record like that, I will listen to my labor union about wether to strike or not before I listen to a guy named "Turbodriver" who does not understand the new BK laws. AMFA was out of control and put us (the pilots at NW) in a terrible position. Actually, it was AMFA that told management "come rape us baby, cause we have nothing but rhetoric and nothing to negotiate with, but we are going to keep throwing sh1t on everybody till you come over and slaughter us." AMFA leadership did this to themselves. Before you come on this board calling people idiots, you should do your homework. You should also look at BK laws before you go spouting off about things you do not know about. Don't just listen to me, go do the research on both these items then if you want to spout off, I will listen.
As you get older you will probably learn not to be so judgemental about what people do--and do not deserve.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

If the pilots supported AMFA, NW would have declared Ch11 the same day, and AMFA still would have lost their ass. Some of them would have kept their jobs, however.

If ALPA had supported the strike a BK judge would have determined the mech's fate. I would take my chances with a BK judge over Steenland and Co. any day. Please explain how things worked out any different for the pilots for not supporting the strike? Everyone else on the planet could see that management was just "dressing the pig" for BK in August EXCEPT NWA ALPA.

Divide and conquer, managements plan went off without a hitch.

Next is the dismantling of the PFAA. All International flying done by new hire Asian foreign nationals for 8 bucks an hour. Nice huh?

Then back to the pilots. A320 Captains will now be checking out on the CRJ at "Newco"

Northwest Airlines is basically a "do-over" at this point.

 

[Deli Guy]

Mastershake quote:
NWA pilots and F/As refused to support the Mechanics. Way to go guys, I'm sure your managment appreciates your lack of involvement. Fecal matter rolls downhill. NWA is fast becoming a boil on the derriere of aviation.
2nd Mastershake quote:
I've done my homework. There is bad blood between the mechanics and pilots. It's really too bad...but in times like these unity between employees should matter more. NWA ALPA made a poor choice by not supporting the mechanics. Your management is slowly dismantling your airline. That is truly tragic.

I've called no one names, so let's keep facts straight. I earn a decent living and have good QOL. Don't think that eveyone in my position wants YOUR job. I sure don't.
Hey Mastershake,
I dont know but calling us a boil on the a$$ of aviation and claiming "way to go guys" and then telling me to keep factual because you have called no one names kind of seems "not factual" doesnt it?
The "lets all get along" theme you are portraying is kid stuff. Dealing with NWA mgmt is hardball. AMFA wanted drama and rhetoric. The plan they had would have been (and obvioulsy was) ...nuts. Who cleans your airplane Mastershake? Your FA's? Well you are just standing by while some trash cleaner is out of work! How can you do that? Yet we should pay AMFA trash cleaners $40 k per year to do what your FA's are doing? Its not about being nice to everybody and unity between employees does not work when one side is on drugs. You have not done your homework. There is no bad blood between pilots and mechanics. There is bad blood between AMFA and ALPA. Management has been trying to dismantle labor since corporations developed. Whoever you are feeding is trying to do the same to your mainline.
I am glad you earn a decent living and have good QOL. I guess you are saying that your hearts desire is to keep flying 50 seaters until you are 60. Oh...wait..you would like to fly EM190s for a little greater pay? But wait a minute...isn't that impacting another union member? Oh yea, he is not part of your union--or should I say, it is part of your union, but not at your companies mec within the union. That is admirable. How is it that you can rampage on this board about other pilots desperate, complex situations-- like an authority-- and not see that your own job defeats unionism?

This goes back to my earlier train of thought about us all thinking everyone else is "the problem".

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Willow run V,
If ALPA had supported the strike a BK judge would have determined the mech's fate. I would take my chances with a BK judge over Steenland and Co. any day. Please explain how things worked out any different for the pilots for not supporting the strike? Everyone else on the planet could see that management was just "dressing the pig" for BK in August EXCEPT NWA ALPA.

Then shouldn't AMFA have been smart enough to pre plan its entrance into a strike until 17 oct when the new BK laws take place putting NWA into a further bind? no--once again their amature status prevaled. They had already cut their ties with the pilots and went out on their own with no plan, no money, and lots of words. AMFA'S insane bartering was a burden on all the other unions--including the PFAA (who is also out of their league) but ALPA had to make a decision--a tough one--what was best for the pilots and their profession? It was not supporting AMFA. By not supporting the strike, there was a chance that the company could stay out of BK. ALPA was in the same boat as many of the industry "analysts" who thought NWA could weather BK (everyone else on the planet except all those experts who were still giving NWA a buy till Katrina and BK). They (ALPA) are not Gods. I wish they had just called you WRV, then the mechanics could still be on property and I wouldnt have to be beefing on the scabs.

Divide and conquer, managements plan went off without a hitch. Next is the dismantling of the PFAA. All International flying done by new hire Asian foreign nationals for 8 bucks an hour. Nice huh? Then back to the pilots. A320 Captains will now be checking out on the CRJ at "Newco"Northwest Airlines is basically a "do-over" at this point.

We are fighting a smart enemy. Divide and conquer works. I am really sorry for the PFAA. They can shut down the airline if they strike. They do have that going for them where AMFA did not. The asaian flying is an outrage. Should I just quit? Do you face these delimas at your place of employment? I think the smartest thing we as pilots can do is to take on the 55+ seat flying for the low pay and go from there. If not, we get further dismantled. Or we could ride in on our mighty steed and yell "go ahead NWA, LIQUIDATE! YOU DON'T SCARE ME... I DARE YOU!!! Then your wife and I would be out of work forever with NWA because there would be no NWA. The 55+ seat flying is a REAL big one right now at NWA.

 

[TurboAWD]

If ALPA had supported the strike a BK judge would have determined the mech's fate. I would take my chances with a BK judge over Steenland and Co. any day. Please explain how things worked out any different for the pilots for not supporting the strike?
....
Northwest Airlines is basically a "do-over" at this point.

First off, all "Legacy" carriers are essentially a "do-over". At least, if they want to survive. On both the mgmt and labor side, the old carriers have a lot of baggage. Old school ideas on labor relations. Old school buisness practices. Old school pensions. On the labor side there are Unions that fight for crappy, lazzy employee jobs (mechs, pilots, FA's, gate agents, rampies, etc. Unproductive work rules that hurt EVERYONE (granted, alot of that is the result of crappy mgmt relations). And unions like AMFA that don't see the writing on the wall.

As for what would have been different for the pilots? Mabey something, mabey nothing. The oportunity for change w/o bankruptcy was lost along time ago. ALPA realized it, the others didn't. If 2 years ago, all the unions worked with the company (that is, if mgmt would have worked with them- see above "old school mgmt"), froze the defined bennies, came up with entirely new work rules, and bit of a pay cut, things could have been different (see AA). Some people would of lost their jobs forever (AC cleaners). That sucks. But, that's life, if you don't educate yourself and work hard, you can not expect life long success. Hell, even if you do, you can get screwed.

Bottom line, AMFA screwed themsleves by giving up scope, their week financial position, and the BS rhetoric. And pissing and crapping in the water tanks (etc, etc,) was a graphic example of how stupid some of those guys are (although I think most of the blame in on AMFA leadership)..

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey TurboAWD,
Both of your posts are right on! I think we did a mind melt.
Deli

 

[Master Shake]

Hey Deli Guy, it's not a rampage, it's an opinion. Thanks for sharing yours.

 

[humuakalaka]

There are only a few things that will reverse the steady deterioration of our industry.
1) Restrict the supply of pilots. This won't happen any time soon. There is currently an oversupply of pilots in the pipeline at varying levels of experience. Over time, the low pay offered by flying airplanes may draw less people and thereby reduce the number of pilots competing for jobs. However, this will take so long that it is not a reasonable solution. Regardless, pilot supply is largely out of the control of pilots as a group.
2) Increase the demand for pilots. This would require airlines to start making money. Enough said?
3) Pilots effectively organize themselves. This is the only answer that I think could reasonably hand pilots back a significant amount of leverage and begin to rebuild this profession. We all should be paying VERY close attention to the situation that the NWA mechanics find themselves in. There is no reason to think that this can't and won't be done with pilots. By splitting up into our various factions, we have stripped ourselves of virtually all leverage that we could wield. If pilots were to truly unify both on a company and industry level, we could call our shots. Instead, by squabbling, finger-pointing, and attacking each other, we have eviscerated ourselves. Is there any truly effective weapon we have against management bringing in scabs if they decide to? I can't think of one. We absolutely must make scabbing a non-option for anyone who might consider it. If there were an effective national pilot's union, then management would be forced to deal with us in much the same way that NFL team owners deal with the player's union or our own companies are forced to purchase oil at a set price. The NFL player's union sets a league minimum salary. Pilots could have our own version of a league minimum salary. Airlines don't negotiate with OPEC for the price of oil. The price of oil is SET. Airlines don't tell OPEC what price it is going to sell oil at. The price of oil is SET and there is very little the airlines can do about it. If pilots were unified, we could SET the minimum level for a pilot's salary. We could tell management what the minimum going rate for a first-year FO, 12th-year captain, etc is. Management would be forced to organize their business plan incorporating the money they must pay pilots in the same way they must organize their business plan around having to pay for fuel at prices set by OPEC and the oil companies. If management knew they couldn't go out and find legions of scabs to replace us, they would have to deal with us.

Bottom line, either we unify or this career field will continue to erode. It will continue it's slide into oblivion. Truly unifying and organizing is the only reasonable alternative we have.

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Humu,
Very true. How to do it? Who knows? Maybe this post will start a "whisper campaign". I know that if a plumber in NYC wants a job, he does not look for work at a business. He goes to the union.

 

[Deli Guy]

Mastershake quote:
NWA pilots and F/As refused to support the Mechanics. Way to go guys, I'm sure your managment appreciates your lack of involvement. Fecal matter rolls downhill. NWA is fast becoming a boil on the derriere of aviation.


Quote by Mastershake:
Hey Deli Guy, it's not a rampage, it's an opinion. Thanks for sharing yours.
Hey Mastershake,
How about we settle on rampinion? Anytime.
Deli