More Union Busting at NWA

[dashocho]

in response

Fn, I agree with your 2nd amendment post. Turbo, correct me If I'm wrong, but under the Bush admin. the bankruptcy laws were changed which corrected the loophole that UA an US have been living in and paying pennies on the dollar to stay in the game while other companies pay their bills.

 

[humuakalaka]

DeliGuy,

How to do it? I'm not real sure either. However, there are a couple of issues I do know that need to be handled:

1) Scabs. If management's answer to a possible strike is to begin training replacements, how do we handle this? A) Effective repercussions against management must be developed if they attempt to use scabs. B) Likewise, an effective disincentive must be developed against scabs accepting jobs while a pilot group is on strike. Right now, there is no real effective disincentive. A scab rationalizes, "But, I've got a family to feed" and is willing to put up with maybe an ad about scabs in the local newspaper or maybe a few union members temporarily picketing his/her house in exchange for a paying job flying airplanes. Obviously, nothing criminal can be done to scabs. However, we must develop real consequences to implement against scabs that will make 99.9% of potential scabs never follow through with becoming one.

2) Bring unity to the various pilot groups. As far as I can tell, ALPA is a joke. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that. The more unified we are, the more power we have. A very important component of that unity would be determining and setting a national minimum payscale for pilots and then forcing each airline to comply with it. If an airline isn't willing to comply, then pilots don't work there. That would take A LOT of unity to implement.

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Humu
I think if we could bring huge pressure on scabs that would work. I just do not think we will. I think ALPA is human and can not keep up with the changing landscape.
I think what we are really going through is that there is overcapacity that is giving management the ability to dictate terms. I hate to say this but the pay cuts are far from over. Mesa/chq will keep lowering the bar to the point where pilots actually will not choose to work there. The LCCs are in the sights of usair, delta, U, NWA, continental and AA. As BK brings down their prices (in part by bringing down labor (pilot pay and getting rid of cleaners etc ) to mimic LCCs, LCCs will lower their wages which will lower the bar for the majors. Most of the regionals, who are supported by the majors are going to morph into chq style operations and their pay will follow. Airbus, Embrear, and Canadair will continue to pump out easy to fly airplanes (this is actually a credit to technology because I like it when they are easy to fly) that they can give away because they are state supported companies (where their nations tax dollars give the free airplanes to america) ((sidenote: which continues to erode Boing)) More airplanes means more overcapacity which means more of what we are seeing now. I think the geanie is out of the bottle and he is pis$ed off. This industry really has no answer until a baseline can be found. We at the bottom see it the most. I am really amazed talking to the senior guys how clueless they are at the impact that the 70-100 seat flying is going to have on them. The EM xx is no longer being viewed as an RJ and will be flown at mainline at rj rates. This will trickle up. I am a minority proponent of this because I see the writing on the wall that if we do not fly the jets at the low pay, someone else will and that will splinter the numbers at mainline so that they would be further rendered powerless just by sheer numbers.
In short, I think there will not be a chance for unity until this job has hit bottom and can not go any lower. That is when unity will occour. Human nature will previl until then with everyone pointing fingers at everyone else as the cause of "the" problem. I think we are 10 years off.

 

[CptMurf]

Deli,
I don't want to stir up anything between us, because I agree with most of your statements on this board and when we met. But NWA pilots had the ability several times (prior to 9/11) to end the disparity between mainline and regional pilots.

IE flowthrough...more than once XJ's MEC brought it up and everytime shot down by mainline. It would have kept your pilots off the street and made it alot easier to work in larger RJ's into the fleet mix. The disparity in pay was caused by the original pilots in the mid 80's accepting less pay/workrule to fly for the upstart regionals. Twenty years later we are fighting the battles to close the gap (Mesa may be out there, but they have always signed a contract better than their last one).

Unfortunately your management is my management is pncl management and the games have begun, we as redtail ALPA need to stick tightly together through this. Most of us at the regionals don't want your flying (at least not at the airlinks), but we don't make those decisions, management does. I hope McClain understands that if you walk, Wychor and Gordon will walk with you, and that my friend, is OUR only chance this gracefully.

PS. You may have heard it, but not discussed it here that XJ has lost all the AVRO's and PNCL is parking 15 CRJ's

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey Capt Murf,
Good to talk to you again. We do agree.

NWA pilots had the ability several times (prior to 9/11) to end the disparity between mainline and regional pilots. IE flowthrough...more than once XJ's MEC brought it up and everytime shot down by mainline. It would have kept your pilots off the street and made it alot easier to work in larger RJ's into the fleet mix.

Alpa goofed on this issue. We should have made flowthrough happen. I have been saying that for years. They should have seen this coming. I realize though that no one has a crystal ball. Also at the time Anderson was proclaiming there was no way in hell that the lists were going to merge. I am sure ALPA saw that as a stone wall and that there were "bigger" issues......

The disparity in pay was caused by the original pilots in the mid 80's accepting less pay/workrule to fly for the upstart regionals. Twenty years later we are fighting the battles to close the gap (Mesa may be out there, but they have always signed a contract better than their last one).

Big time agree--and am I mad at them for doing this?...not really. It seemed tame enough at the time. Who would have thunk it would would turn out like this? It is still the root of the problem. What could have been done? Informational picketing? People would have laughed at us on their way down to Cancun at $250 round trip.

Unfortunately your management is my management is pncl management and the games have begun, we as redtail ALPA need to stick tightly together through this. Most of us at the regionals don't want your flying (at least not at the airlinks), but we don't make those decisions, management does. I hope McClain understands that if you walk, Wychor and Gordon will walk with you, and that my friend, is OUR only chance this gracefully.

Very true. However, NW ALPA is composed of humans with all the vices humans have. I am getting signals that ALPA is ready to think outside the box, but I think NW ALPA is looking out for NW ALPA. This may entail mainline going after the 55+ seat flying which may impact you. "Our" masters at NWA mgmt have no problem using each other (Pcl vs Mesaba vs NW) to get what they want. This 55+ or the "100 seat flying" issue is going to cause one of our companies a lot of pain. I do not fault you in the least for flying at Pinnacle. I do not like bonehead rj drivers from another airline coming on this board slamming NW pilots for not "supporting" AMFA with no facts (plus the fact that they do it in such an abrasive manner) On the last note, I want you to have my flying by using a flowthrough.

PS. You may have heard it, but not discussed it here that XJ has lost all the AVRO's and PNCL is parking 15 CRJ's

Yeah, I did hear it. My gut is telling me this may be due to the reduction in flying. I saw that the AVROS were pulled from Jan flying and then put back in. NWA may just be looking for a way to get deeper discounts on the AVRO leases. Or, the AVROS will go and parking CRJ's is a way to bring you guys to the table by threatening to bring them over to Mesaba to replace the AVROS. The worst case for PCL / Mesaba is if this is because mainline is taking the 55+ seat flying which means a reduction in the need for Pcl / Mesaba. I can tell you that I am not saying this with any form of happiness or glee because I know this impacts you. These are management decisions. Blah blah blah. Nothing is transparent or simple right now which is why I don't fault ALPA for not always keeping their eye on the ball.

Good luck to us all!
Deli

 

[castle bravo]

Hey Capt Murf,

"Alpa goofed on this issue. We should have made flowthrough happen."


This is classic MSP Red-book mentality in action. Not really any big surprise.





"Our" masters at NWA mgmt have no problem using each other (Pcl vs Mesaba vs NW) to get what they want."


Steenlans loves to whipsaw.

 

[320AV8R]

NWA pilots had the ability several times (prior to 9/11) to end the disparity between mainline and regional pilots.

IE flowthrough...more than once XJ's MEC brought it up and everytime shot down by mainline.

Murf-

Your statement is partially correct.

On MULTIPE occasions, (too many to remember), NWA ALPA approached Mgmt with a flowthrough proposal. The closest they got was a year or two ago. NWA ALPA wanted it to be based on seniority; guys could jump to mainline, or bypass. Mgmt wanted to HANDPICK CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS from the regional ranks to flow up, irregardless of seniority. NWA ALPA could not agree with this arrangement; (not unlike furloughing out of seniority).

So, you are correct.....the numerous attempts at an agreement were ultimatley shot down by mainline..........management, and their illogical proposal.

320AV8R

 

[TurboAWD]

Well, as a PCL pilot, I can see why NW management would not want to let everyone come to the party via just seniorty.


During the 9E growth, HR was less than selective. And the old "memphis flying club" has some real winners too. Yes, 80% are great, but there are many that have no buisness in a Part 121 op, or a jet, and should not go to NW. Not that everyone at NW is perfect...

 

[ilinipilot]

Why not merge PCL and Mesaba. It seems to me that lots of overhead exists in running two very similar operations. It might eliminate the whipsaw and give everyone a powerful voice. All seniorty integration issues aside (bc those are always dicey) this might be a great way to save money, resources, and secure some power.


D