More recalls at UAL

[Andy]

Andy,

You da Man! Hey 2 questions if you have time.

1. I was a 7 May 01 hire (almost the last class). Any ball park guess on recall date?
2. I'm back on AD and plan to retire, but need to stretch 6.5 years from now. I believe we once discussed the 5 year rule went to 6 for Mil Leave. Just a re-check. Is that correct? I'm trying to line everything up. THX for all the info!

Tweetybird

1) 7May01 puts you in the 8847-8866 seniority number range. I am betting that UAL burns through approximately 100 numbers per month through the Sep 06, then accelerate to 200 numbers per month for larger classes starting Jan 07. You should get a call around Nov offering you a Feb 07 class date. Those are just my guess; please read my disclaimer above very carefully.

2) Take mil leave. It is a VERY GOOD deal. Don't worry about exceeding 6 yrs on mil leave. While on mil leave, you accrue seniority for six years. After that, your seniority is frozen (see section 12-D of the contract). For you, it would be no big deal to stay in the AF for an additional 5 or 6 years beyond the 6 years of mil leave, because AT MOST, you would lose less than 100 slots on the seniority list (and that's assuming that everyone below you returns to UAL). That six years does not mention accruing longevity or getting your B and C fund contributions. I don't know if you can still get that past 6 years, but my gues is yes, you still get longevity and contributions.
I would also recommend that you save copies of any contingency orders that you are on after being on mil leave; they aren't supposed to count toward the 6 years. (At least that's what I've been told).
Also, you will return to United on probation until you have worked 165 days (section 6-C). You will have met the 12 month criteria even though you were on mil leave.

Again, read the above disclaimer and confirm everything with both ALPA and a domicile flight office.

 

[250scp]

Andy,

Thanks for confirming what I thought to be true with regard to longevity while on Mil Leave. I believe a good number of us furlougees who have an opportunity to defer returning to UAL until we complete a career with my favorite Uncle can't pass up that opportunity.

From my viewpoint, the benefits of a missing the lower pay scale wages for up to 6 years courtesy of the longevity provisions (wow) , the B/C fund contributions, return of full pass privileges, potential for returning to a wide body fleet, and continued QOL (30 days of annual leave + most holidays at home...barring the occasional deployment) while working towards a government retirement check can't be ignored.

I'd be curious to know the number of guys the Company has on Mil Leave right now...I suspect most will remain on AD until they can try to get to become retirement eligible as well.

Lets just hope Age 60 doesn't change and/or the company doesn't merge with another carrier anytime soon...then this house of cards comes tumbling down.

One final question; you spoke about increased class sizes beginning in Jan 07. Fact or just wishful thinking?

 

[Tweetybird]

Andy,

Thanks for the info. Also, I love the disclaimer!

It sure is good to hear that I shouldn't (once again I read your disclaimer) be out on the street after Af retirement because I missed the 6 year mark by a couple of months. At this point, like 250scp, I can't pass up the Mil Retirement. The benefits may not be super, but after being furloughed for so long I want that retirement safety net. Thanks for all the info and good luck to you and everyone else in our ranks.

 

[Andy]

One final question; you spoke about increased class sizes beginning in Jan 07. Fact or just wishful thinking?

I suppose that it is wishful thinking.
I am going off of a few factors.
First, I expect the percentage of bypasses/ML/LOA to increase as we go deeper in the list. The bottom 844 have been off of property for more than 4 years; that's a long time to not have made alternative plans. I don't expect to see many who have gone to Southwest/JetBlue/FedEx/UPS return to United, but would anticipate them taking a bypass on the way down the seniority list as a hedge in case United ends up looking better than their current employer.
Second, take a look at age 60 retirements. We'll know the fall if the age 60 rule is going to change (my bet is that it will die this time around). If it changes to 65, recalls will grind to a screeching halt for a while. If it doesn't change, here are United's age 60 pilots (from Jul 05 seniority list):
2005 83
2006 240
2007 266
Third, United is increasing block hours on the mainline side. They are already near maxing out pilots on property (some fleets such as the 777 and 400 have slight excesses) so they will need additional pilots to fly the additional block hours.
Fourth, in order to meet a busier summer schedule, United needs to preload additional pilots in training starting in January and going through early May.
Last, additional students in training increases the 'training float,' meaning that they will need additional pilots on property. They will also need to increase the PI staff at TK.

As for the percentage of pilots on mil leave, I think that they make up around 20% of the pilots recalled from furlough. There are other pilots who have never been furloughed, but take mil leave due to the higher paycheck. This is one of the reasons why United has kept manning so lean; they are expecting a bunch of pilots on mil leave to return every 1 Oct. For some reason, those pilots always seem to get additional orders from their Guard/Reserve units.

 

[Andy]

Andy,

Thanks for the info. Also, I love the disclaimer!

It sure is good to hear that I shouldn't (once again I read your disclaimer) be out on the street after Af retirement because I missed the 6 year mark by a couple of months. At this point, like 250scp, I can't pass up the Mil Retirement. The benefits may not be super, but after being furloughed for so long I want that retirement safety net. Thanks for all the info and good luck to you and everyone else in our ranks.

Here's 12-D; you can slice and dice it any way you like. Exceeding 6 years on mil leave should not be cause for termination; double check with USERRA laws, but I don't think that United would try to pull something like that.

[FONT=Arial,Bold]

12-D​

[/FONT][FONT=Arial,BoldItalic]aves for active
military duty​

[/FONT]

A pilot ordered to enter active military duty during a period of
national emergency or pursuant to law or a pilot classified as 1-
A under the Selective Service Act who is unable to obtain a
deferment and chooses to enlist for military duty in the Armed
Forces, shall retain and continue to accrue seniority, provided,
however, that pilots so ordered to enter military service shall
continue to accrue seniority only during the period in which they
are on Armed Forces duty plus ninety (90) days and in no case
will any such pilot accrue seniority for a period exceeding six (6)
years, unless otherwise provided by law; provided, further that
any such pilot shall not accrue any greater seniority nor shall his
relative seniority position be different than it would have been
had he not entered such military duty.​

​

 

[Take A]

Mil vs Bypass vs LOA

Andy,

I currently am on MPA orders with my unit and expect to get recalled soon. I am also on mil leave from a contract job.

I'm afraid that if I go on Mil leave with UAL, then my orders run out prior to when my contract with "X" airlines ends, I will be forced to return to UAL then break my contract with "X" and get stiffed with a sizeable penalty.

I'm thinking I may by-pass or go on an LOA with UAL, then when it gets closer to my "X" airlines contract expiring and it looks like I've got enough orders to carry me throuigh to the end---then go bak to UAL but on Mil Leave.

Whaddya think.

Also, I think we are close in seniority--March-ish 2000.

Thanks, Take A

 

[Andy]

Take A, you are in an odd situation. I would go for the bypass or LOA initially if I were you, since you are 'working' three jobs.
As far as the LOA, I have read that it depends on your domicile as to whether or not they will grant you a LOA. I recommend that you call you domicile and go for an LOA initially. The phone number for your domicile is 1-800-UAL-9XXX where XXX = domicile (ORD, LAX, SFO, etc). From what I've read, the LOA is a much better deal than bypassing; you still accrue longevity and have pass benefits for 90 days.
If you are denied an LOA, you can bypass. You said that you were hired in Mar 2000 giving you a seniority range of 7917-8008. How long before they come back around the second time? I'll give you a WAG; I'm figuring that they will have made first pass on the seniority list by the end of this year to fill a Mar 2007 recall class. I don't know how many will decide to return on their last chance, but there are a bit over 900 numbers between 8008 and 8915. I'll assume about half bypass (450), and half that bypass end up returning; 225. I think that UAL will be in a 50/mo recall mode by then due to retirements, short manning, and expansion. I would guess that if you elect to bypass, UAL will call you around April 2007 for a summer 2007 class. If you go the bypass route, you can definitely go on mil leave later; you'll need to watch how fast they burn throught the seniority list second pass. It could go fast or slow.
Also, as we get to the bottom of the list, how many previous bypassers will come back with the seniority that they've accumulated from bypassing?

Again, please read my disclaimer above. There are a lot of moving parts here, but as long as there are retirements, crew shortages, and block hour expansion at UAL, they will have to recall pilots.

 

[Reebo]

Again, please read my disclaimer above. There are a lot of moving parts here, but as long as there are retirements, crew shortages, and block hour expansion at UAL, they will have to recall pilots.

How long until "off the street" hiring?

 

[Andy]

How long until "off the street" hiring?

My best guess is early 2008. That's written in jello, subject to the disclaimer below.

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[Fletch F Fletch]

I was wondering if anyone knew how many days a month lineholders and reserves are working. As I recall, it used to be 15 days a month for reserves. And how junior is Denver these days. Are they putting any newly recalled dudes in Denver?