Message From UAL MEC Chariman

[EWR_FO]

Miraculous that we made money right when it suits them huh?

Yeah UAL was definitely going down.........lol.

Kinda ironic that you would say that we are sounding like USAir East. The JCBA and SLI should be seperate - we all agreed to it. Now that we call BS because you are trying to tie JCBA and SLI arguments together a member of your MEC in the Denver meeting stood up and said he was willing to hold up the JCBA INDEFINITELY until the 747/777 pay was banded.

Who's sounding more like the East?

I am done on this subject - CAL pilots go ahead and bash away at what little unity we have - see where that gets us in a few years. I guess I will have to wait until another Magenta Line comes out.

Shrek,

Just to be clear- my absolute disgust with this whole issue is not a UAL-CAL thing, it's a senior-junior thing. For twenty plus years I have watched it happen time and time again and I will be damned if I sit back and let it happen- yet again.

I can remember like it was yesterday:

1) Being told by one of the senior pilots negotiating for our commuter (back when no one considered it insulting to use that term) that "you don't negotiate for the FO's, you negotiate for the CA's because you will be a CA eventually. The first Gulf War started a few months later and there was no movement for three plus years. That worked out well.

2) Being told by the IACP President (same position as ALPA MEC Chairman today) during negotiations that "we need to take care of the guys who are retiring on THIS contract (he retired before the ink dried and I will piss on his grave when he dies) and we'll get the junior guys on the next. He proceeded to negotiate a DC-10 SO payscale that was a complete back door retirement plan for his buddies. Oddly enough, the payrates on the FO side years 1-5 got killed. Since there was hardly any votes from that section, these MF's laughed all the way to the bank.

3) Being told by the next IACP President after I told him how stupid it was that we didn't get a B-Plan "there is no need for a B plan if you have a good A plan." How'd that work out you stupid MF'er? To this day, when I see this guy I want to punch him in the face.

4) Flying back from Asia with a guy who was going to change, hop on a DC flight when we got in, and go knock on doors to try and get the age changed. he couldn't give two s**ts what effect this would have on the junior guys.

The UAL management team that KNEW they were going to be removing a giant chunk of their domestic operation and "conceded" into giving domestic work rules makes me sick. In retrospect, how much did those work rules end up costing them?

I could just as easily sit back and wait for the dust to settle, I'm still going to be a widebody guy in NY but, at some point, we have got to STOP a** fu**ing the lower end of the spectrum in order to give to the upper...that's all I'm saying. I firmly believe that is what is behind this issue, if someone can show me that is not the case, then I'm all in.

The fact that guys like you have been out for that long while the pin striped MF'ers line their pockets makes me sick. I'm ready to torch the place, I'm just waiting for the nod.

 

[ATRCA]

Yesterday the executive VP of flight ops told a group of returning CAL furloughee's that the "most vulnerable aircraft in the merged company were UAL 75's and 74's".......those are the aircraft being targeted for reductions should reductions be necessary......Those 74's aren't gonna be here in 24 months. CAL has NEVER been a 74 company. The CAL management team is running this show and they have no use for those frames. They don't think its a viable frame going forward.

The UAL MEC knows this, they must or they haven't been paying attention. This is a seniority grab pure and simple. If we have to go the way of USAir, so be it. We're not going to capitulate here, it's not going to happen.

 

[Shrek]

Shrek,

Just to be clear- my absolute disgust with this whole issue is not a UAL-CAL thing, it's a senior-junior thing. For twenty plus years I have watched it happen time and time again and I will be damned if I sit back and let it happen- yet again.

I can remember like it was yesterday:

1) Being told by one of the senior pilots negotiating for our commuter (back when no one considered it insulting to use that term) that "you don't negotiate for the FO's, you negotiate for the CA's because you will be a CA eventually. The first Gulf War started a few months later and there was no movement for three plus years. That worked out well.

2) Being told by the IACP President (same position as ALPA MEC Chairman today) during negotiations that "we need to take care of the guys who are retiring on THIS contract (he retired before the ink dried and I will piss on his grave when he dies) and we'll get the junior guys on the next. He proceeded to negotiate a DC-10 SO payscale that was a complete back door retirement plan for his buddies. Oddly enough, the payrates on the FO side years 1-5 got killed. Since there was hardly any votes from that section, these MF's laughed all the way to the bank.

3) Being told by the next IACP President after I told him how stupid it was that we didn't get a B-Plan "there is no need for a B plan if you have a good A plan." How'd that work out you stupid MF'er? To this day, when I see this guy I want to punch him in the face.

4) Flying back from Asia with a guy who was going to change, hop on a DC flight when we got in, and go knock on doors to try and get the age changed. he couldn't give two s**ts what effect this would have on the junior guys.

The UAL management team that KNEW they were going to be removing a giant chunk of their domestic operation and "conceded" into giving domestic work rules makes me sick. In retrospect, how much did those work rules end up costing them?

I could just as easily sit back and wait for the dust to settle, I'm still going to be a widebody guy in NY but, at some point, we have got to STOP a** fu**ing the lower end of the spectrum in order to give to the upper...that's all I'm saying. I firmly believe that is what is behind this issue, if someone can show me that is not the case, then I'm all in.

The fact that guys like you have been out for that long while the pin striped MF'ers line their pockets makes me sick. I'm ready to torch the place, I'm just waiting for the nod.

At least I know exactly where you are coming from - thanks for the post.

 

[becket]

Wait till they join USAPA. . .

No other pilot group in the World is as Dumb as the Eastholes. UAL isn't going anywhere.

 

[waveflyer]

Thatsa nice generic about sticking up for the junior-
I'd set it up a bit clearer-
1- Sticking up and fighting for the QOL of the junior and smaller a/c sends so many messages-
The opposite shows mgmt that you can be divided

One payscale will pay for itself in droves when it comes to unity. The paycuts at alps carriers are due to a lack of unity caused by short term policies that don't look out for all-

UPS style is a win-win for all, even the company.

A UAL 747capt medical retiree will cause 12 training events- many of whom don't want to be in training and don't want to move airplanes, but are forced to for financial reasons- one payscale is efficient as geezers will now choose domestic flying and stay in the same time zone- and more pilots will be represented more fairly as those with influence and seniority are spread throughout the fleet based on personal preference and not on wry of pay- one payscale puts an end to the trainig ripple effect waste and that can be used as leverage for higher blended wages.

Win- win - win

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Yesterday the executive VP of flight ops told a group of returning CAL furloughee's that the "most vulnerable aircraft in the merged company were UAL 75's and 74's".......those are the aircraft being targeted for reductions should reductions be necessary......Those 74's aren't gonna be here in 24 months. CAL has NEVER been a 74 company. The CAL management team is running this show and they have no use for those frames. They don't think its a viable frame going forward.

The UAL MEC knows this, they must or they haven't been paying attention. This is a seniority grab pure and simple. If we have to go the way of USAir, so be it. We're not going to capitulate here, it's not going to happen.

The 744 frames have no use? Are you kidding? Totally not true. You don't realize the magnitude nor the payload those things carry. The triple can't do the job.

 

[rumrunner300]

Well, it is time we get all that back and more. Most UAL pilots think that to have the 747/777 pay banded - it would be a concession, period.

It would be shot down in an instant........

I would not be so sure. I know of plenty of brothers and sisters that are sick and tired of having their interests play second fiddle to the 400's. This would include me. The maximization of good for the GREATEST number of pilots at OUR company should be the goal.

Also, anyone who takes what has been presented by either MEC officer at face value as the whole truth is beyond naive, the truth usually lies perhaps not in the middle, but certainly contains shadings of both.

Nobody said this wouldn't sting a little, but we should not be distracted by a bee in the car to the point of driving full speed into a cement bridge support.

Cheers, and here's looking forward to the day when I will be able to waste my law degree on this nonsense again.

rr

 

[EWR_FO]

The 744 frames have no use? Are you kidding? Totally not true. You don't realize the magnitude nor the payload those things carry. The triple can't do the job.

Two less engines, much more fuel efficient, longer range, no center gear (space filled with containers), lighter gross weight (cheaper landing fees).

Show me what job the 777 can't do. When freight forwarding companies routinely buy blocks of coach seats, just so they go out vacant, in order to create more space for their freight- you don't get more efficient than that. A 744 simply could not do this on HKG-EWR.

 

[ChrisJT6]

The DOT of transportation cited Delta's bid to the coveted Haneda Airport using the 744 vice UAL / CAL bids w a 777 as the reason why they choose Delta to get 2 slots and CAL or UAL none. They wanted max compacity on the new routes and the 400 gives it to them. Apparently regulators disagree with you...so do the cargo haulers who have brought in a lot of rev in good and bad times.

 

[ChrisJT6]

Yesterday the executive VP of flight ops told a group of returning CAL furloughee's that the "most vulnerable aircraft in the merged company were UAL 75's and 74's".......those are the aircraft being targeted for reductions should reductions be necessary......Those 74's aren't gonna be here in 24 months. CAL has NEVER been a 74 company. The CAL management team is running this show and they have no use for those frames. They don't think its a viable frame going forward.

The UAL MEC knows this, they must or they haven't been paying attention. This is a seniority grab pure and simple. If we have to go the way of USAir, so be it. We're not going to capitulate here, it's not going to happen.

Once this CAL VP of flight OPS realizes the 744 is a big part of UAL hauling more USPS cargo across the Pacific than any pax carrier in the world and how much revenue is attached to that use...he will think twice about early 744 reductions.

 

[bizicmo]

Once this CAL VP of flight OPS realizes the 744 is a big part of UAL hauling more USPS cargo across the Pacific than any pax carrier in the world and how much revenue is attached to that use...he will think twice about early 744 reductions.

Wasn't it the CAL flight ops guy that said there was no money in cargo?

 

[Captain X]

Keep on beating your chest until you let the Transition Agreement die. We can compare what our seperate contracts will look like afterwards. It will be a disaster in the meantime - your

Should we compare before or after the 90% block hour ratio protection (brought up from 0%) that CAL pilots fought for UAL to have goes away? When the Transition Agreement "dies."

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Either this will end in a handshake and we will move on which I at this point assume will happen in the next few weeks or this will be the worst nightmare we will ever have in aviation minus 911. Worse than c11 because it will last much longer. STOP THE INFIGHTING.

 

[jonjuan]

Either this will end in a handshake and we will move on which I at this point assume will happen in the next few weeks or this will be the worst nightmare we will ever have in aviation minus 911. Worse than c11 because it will last much longer. STOP THE INFIGHTING.

but what about the teenagers???

 

[waveflyer]

Set a payrate- blend the rates- have one payscale- at least then this 744 debate won't be muddied by "benefits for a few" that recent UAL history is littered with

 

[aewanabe]

Two less engines, much more fuel efficient, longer range, no center gear (space filled with containers), lighter gross weight (cheaper landing fees).

Show me what job the 777 can't do. When freight forwarding companies routinely buy blocks of coach seats, just so they go out vacant, in order to create more space for their freight- you don't get more efficient than that. A 744 simply could not do this on HKG-EWR.

A buddy that has flown both at UA points out that on the 744, the freight forwarder would just buy the freight space and then let you fill the seats. This seriously should not be a johnson-measuring contest, but saying the 777>744 is flawed.

 

[flyguppy]

I also don't believe CAL is UAL's savior, but in a way, it is.

You guys keep that attitude and we'll just see how well this whole thing goes.

Not well, in my opinion.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

but what about the teenagers???

Like I said it will be a nightmare. It's like giving the keys of my 2008 audi to a 16 year old. They won't know how to "take care of it" and they will joyride the piss out of it.

 

[atpcliff]

DAL was not too keen, either on the 744 before the merger. Now they are trying to buy more and want to retrofit all their existing ones, as the 744s are doing great.

cliff
LGG

 

[UALRATT]

CAL guys...I'm with you on this. I don't understand why UAL MEC is protecting 24 747s from the banding. Frankly we have bigger fish to fry...SCOPE and SCOPE. Get the contract, THE SCOPE, workrules and pay (figure the stupid rates out just look what DAL did) and then get the SLI done. I'm sick and tired of the bantering. The sooner we get a contract the sooner we get the teens back in the turboprops.

Dude you must be 4 foot 0h. UAL is negotiating toward contract 2000 and beyond. CAL (at least the objectionist on here) are just simply happy to get their loan back as long as their 26 aging 767s stay banded. You're not the only one dying to get back on the property but by any means necessary? A solid contract (Section 1 thru Section 2X) that is separate and independent of SLI is what UALMEC is determine to achieve. Seem like they'll have to carry Jay along the way but in the end he won't regret it. Jayson Baron does want the 747 unbanded but in the followup contract to JCBA. What does that tell you?

Section III: Unband and significantly raise the rates for each aircraft in the inventory, PERIOD. That simple!!