Message From UAL MEC Chariman

[whatitdoing?]

All or nothing BAND EVERYTHING or band nothing. Since there doesn't seem to be a push for banding everything.....

Keep the JCBA and SLI apart - period.
ALPA merer policy states JCBA and SLI remain seperate processes.
Follow through on the agreement.

The UALMEC owes you NOTHING.

And please don't act like CAL was UALs savior.
Enough of the negotiating in public that BOTH of our MECs has apparently sunk to. See how well it has worked so far?!
Both MECs should be locked in a room until an agreement is reached. Give them food and water and bathroom facilities but no bed or shower. Then start a clock. In a week we would be beyond this issue.

Come on SHREK, we don't have that attitude at CAL. I also don't believe CAL is UAL's savior, but in a way, it is. We're gonna bring things to mold that you've wanted for a long time. It's gonna be a well run airline, Tilton is gone, and we need to come together and work it out. The reason why you have 1500 pilots furloughed is because YOUR MEC gave up scope. The reason why you guys have terrible wages is because you had a gun to your head. We're trying to get this all worked out, but now everything is being stalled for a few pilots that consider the 744 the grand poobah. It wasn't about pay, it was about status and category for a seniority grab. Nothing more, nothing less. So ask your reps what's going on and watch the spin. I'm extremely frustrated because I have no money and I drive a car with 200,000 miles on it that's blowing smoke. I'm fed up and now your side is stalling it because they want MORE. They want more at the sacrifice of all the CAL pilots. WTF?? It's unfortunate..........

 

[Heavy Set]

Come on SHREK, we don't have that attitude at CAL. I also don't believe CAL is UAL's savior, but in a way, it is. We're gonna bring things to mold that you've wanted for a long time. It's gonna be a well run airline, Tilton is gone, and we need to come together and work it out. The reason why you have 1500 pilots furloughed is because YOUR MEC gave up scope. The reason why you guys have terrible wages is because you had a gun to your head. We're trying to get this all worked out, but now everything is being stalled for a few pilots that consider the 744 the grand poobah. It wasn't about pay, it was about status and category for a seniority grab. Nothing more, nothing less. So ask your reps what's going on and watch the spin. I'm extremely frustrated because I have no money and I drive a car with 200,000 miles on it that's blowing smoke. I'm fed up and now your side is stalling it because they want MORE. They want more at the sacrifice of all the CAL pilots. WTF?? It's unfortunate..........

You are correct SIR! United with Tilton was a sinking ship. What is up with these UAL pilots? They are sounding a lot like USAir East pilots.

 

[Raoul Duke]

Wait till they join USAPA. . .

 

[Shrek]

Trust me, we don't WANT anything. We are already having to expend resources to defend our scope section which is now under direct attack because of YOUR scope section. That is a fact.

If your MEC wants to play games and keep the furloughed guys out even longer, that's their business. They are f**king over a huge chunk of the seniority list in a futile attempt to advantage a tiny sliver- makes sense to me.

And we are expending resources to bring up your FAR min QOL sections of your contract - what is your point?

If you think it only involves the super senior - you would be wrong. You either band ALL flying together or NONE. Since I have not heard any news of total banding in terms of pay.......I say none period.

Believe me - we don't want any part of your MECs version of playing "games" either. Keep on beating your chest until you let the Transition Agreement die. We can compare what our seperate contracts will look like afterwards. It will be a disaster in the meantime - your choice.

Keep the JCBA and SLI seperate. Read it again because there are some on your MEC that thinks that it will be a part of SLI proceedings - it won't.

Keep me furloughed for another 8 years then - we need to get this JCBA done right.

I am fully behind the UALMEC on this issue.

 

[Shrek]

Come on SHREK, we don't have that attitude at CAL. I also don't believe CAL is UAL's savior, but in a way, it is. We're gonna bring things to mold that you've wanted for a long time. It's gonna be a well run airline, Tilton is gone, and we need to come together and work it out. The reason why you have 1500 pilots furloughed is because YOUR MEC gave up scope. The reason why you guys have terrible wages is because you had a gun to your head. We're trying to get this all worked out, but now everything is being stalled for a few pilots that consider the 744 the grand poobah. It wasn't about pay, it was about status and category for a seniority grab. Nothing more, nothing less. So ask your reps what's going on and watch the spin. I'm extremely frustrated because I have no money and I drive a car with 200,000 miles on it that's blowing smoke. I'm fed up and now your side is stalling it because they want MORE. They want more at the sacrifice of all the CAL pilots. WTF?? It's unfortunate..........

I was responding to Vref+10's post and his grand idea that our MEC chairman should appologize - horse....

I have been relatively quiet since the beggining and took a measured approach - my patience is running thin since the embarassing - in public - LEC and MEC letters from both sides accusing this and that. These should never be in writing and posted to the net.

We ARE talking to our reps and what we hear is very different than what is posted here by CAL pilots.

The 747 IS the grand poobah and it will be paid as such. We have historically had seperate payscales for aircraft and actually extrapollated all payrates from the top aircraft (747 ). Pay was tied to payload and gross weight and then flowed down from there. During bankruptcy we gave all that away and for many reasons that I am sure we both are aware of.

Well, it is time we get all that back and more. Most UAL pilots think that to have the 747/777 pay banded - it would be a concession, period.

It would be shot down in an instant........

Whatitdoing thank you for the serious reply - we will get through this eventually as a group.

 

[Shrek]

You are correct SIR! United with Tilton was a sinking ship. What is up with these UAL pilots? They are sounding a lot like USAir East pilots.

Miraculous that we made money right when it suits them huh?

Yeah UAL was definitely going down.........lol.

Kinda ironic that you would say that we are sounding like USAir East. The JCBA and SLI should be seperate - we all agreed to it. Now that we call BS because you are trying to tie JCBA and SLI arguments together a member of your MEC in the Denver meeting stood up and said he was willing to hold up the JCBA INDEFINITELY until the 747/777 pay was banded.

Who's sounding more like the East?

I am done on this subject - CAL pilots go ahead and bash away at what little unity we have - see where that gets us in a few years. I guess I will have to wait until another Magenta Line comes out.

 

[whatitdoing?]

I'm not bashing you SHREK or any other UAL pilot. We all need to move on. What's been going on at CAL/UAL ALPA is childish and immature. You're right, they shouldn't of aired their issue in the public. It should of been internal. I'm hoping you guys get back on the line soon. First rounds on me when all this bs works out. Cheers.......

 

[EWR_FO]

And we are expending resources to bring up your FAR min QOL sections of your contract - what is your point?

If you think the two are comparable, that's laughable. One of the reasons you can claim a QOL advantage, that I don't buy by the way, is because you essentially parked an entire fleet of narrowbodies. Show me one single issue, right now, that is being battled because of a "QOL" issue. I'll give you a hint... there are none. The battle over scope started with bringing your scope clause to the party. If we lose that battle, you are going to stay furloughed for a long time.

I ask again, if the UAL NC, the CAL NC, the UAL MEC Chairman, the CAL MEC Chairman, and the CAL MEC ALL thought it was acceptable....what happened? An attempted seniority grab happened that is directly impacting how long it is going to take guys like you to get back. If you're good with that...so be it.

 

[EWR_FO]

We have historically had seperate payscales for aircraft and actually extrapollated all payrates from the top aircraft (747 ). Pay was tied to payload and gross weight and then flowed down from there. During bankruptcy we gave all that away and for many reasons that I am sure we both are aware of.

Well, it is time we get all that back and more. Most UAL pilots think that to have the 747/777 pay banded - it would be a concession, period.

It would be shot down in an instant........

You realize, of course, that historically speaking the 747 has always generated the most revenue- not anymore. That is quite obvious when you see how many 747's are in the desert and almost all of them have been replaced by 777's. If you don't think that factored into the equation in the DL-NW merger, I have a bridge for sale.

 

[Shrek]

I'm not bashing you SHREK or any other UAL pilot. We all need to move on. What's been going on at CAL/UAL ALPA is childish and immature. You're right, they shouldn't of aired their issue in the public. It should of been internal. I'm hoping you guys get back on the line soon. First rounds on me when all this bs works out. Cheers.......

Thanks brother....it will taste pretty damned good

 

[EWR_FO]

Miraculous that we made money right when it suits them huh?

Yeah UAL was definitely going down.........lol.

Kinda ironic that you would say that we are sounding like USAir East. The JCBA and SLI should be seperate - we all agreed to it. Now that we call BS because you are trying to tie JCBA and SLI arguments together a member of your MEC in the Denver meeting stood up and said he was willing to hold up the JCBA INDEFINITELY until the 747/777 pay was banded.

Who's sounding more like the East?

I am done on this subject - CAL pilots go ahead and bash away at what little unity we have - see where that gets us in a few years. I guess I will have to wait until another Magenta Line comes out.

Shrek,

Just to be clear- my absolute disgust with this whole issue is not a UAL-CAL thing, it's a senior-junior thing. For twenty plus years I have watched it happen time and time again and I will be damned if I sit back and let it happen- yet again.

I can remember like it was yesterday:

1) Being told by one of the senior pilots negotiating for our commuter (back when no one considered it insulting to use that term) that "you don't negotiate for the FO's, you negotiate for the CA's because you will be a CA eventually. The first Gulf War started a few months later and there was no movement for three plus years. That worked out well.

2) Being told by the IACP President (same position as ALPA MEC Chairman today) during negotiations that "we need to take care of the guys who are retiring on THIS contract (he retired before the ink dried and I will piss on his grave when he dies) and we'll get the junior guys on the next. He proceeded to negotiate a DC-10 SO payscale that was a complete back door retirement plan for his buddies. Oddly enough, the payrates on the FO side years 1-5 got killed. Since there was hardly any votes from that section, these MF's laughed all the way to the bank.

3) Being told by the next IACP President after I told him how stupid it was that we didn't get a B-Plan "there is no need for a B plan if you have a good A plan." How'd that work out you stupid MF'er? To this day, when I see this guy I want to punch him in the face.

4) Flying back from Asia with a guy who was going to change, hop on a DC flight when we got in, and go knock on doors to try and get the age changed. he couldn't give two s**ts what effect this would have on the junior guys.

The UAL management team that KNEW they were going to be removing a giant chunk of their domestic operation and "conceded" into giving domestic work rules makes me sick. In retrospect, how much did those work rules end up costing them?

I could just as easily sit back and wait for the dust to settle, I'm still going to be a widebody guy in NY but, at some point, we have got to STOP a** fu**ing the lower end of the spectrum in order to give to the upper...that's all I'm saying. I firmly believe that is what is behind this issue, if someone can show me that is not the case, then I'm all in.

The fact that guys like you have been out for that long while the pin striped MF'ers line their pockets makes me sick. I'm ready to torch the place, I'm just waiting for the nod.

 

[ATRCA]

Yesterday the executive VP of flight ops told a group of returning CAL furloughee's that the "most vulnerable aircraft in the merged company were UAL 75's and 74's".......those are the aircraft being targeted for reductions should reductions be necessary......Those 74's aren't gonna be here in 24 months. CAL has NEVER been a 74 company. The CAL management team is running this show and they have no use for those frames. They don't think its a viable frame going forward.

The UAL MEC knows this, they must or they haven't been paying attention. This is a seniority grab pure and simple. If we have to go the way of USAir, so be it. We're not going to capitulate here, it's not going to happen.

 

[Shrek]

Shrek,

Just to be clear- my absolute disgust with this whole issue is not a UAL-CAL thing, it's a senior-junior thing. For twenty plus years I have watched it happen time and time again and I will be damned if I sit back and let it happen- yet again.

I can remember like it was yesterday:

1) Being told by one of the senior pilots negotiating for our commuter (back when no one considered it insulting to use that term) that "you don't negotiate for the FO's, you negotiate for the CA's because you will be a CA eventually. The first Gulf War started a few months later and there was no movement for three plus years. That worked out well.

2) Being told by the IACP President (same position as ALPA MEC Chairman today) during negotiations that "we need to take care of the guys who are retiring on THIS contract (he retired before the ink dried and I will piss on his grave when he dies) and we'll get the junior guys on the next. He proceeded to negotiate a DC-10 SO payscale that was a complete back door retirement plan for his buddies. Oddly enough, the payrates on the FO side years 1-5 got killed. Since there was hardly any votes from that section, these MF's laughed all the way to the bank.

3) Being told by the next IACP President after I told him how stupid it was that we didn't get a B-Plan "there is no need for a B plan if you have a good A plan." How'd that work out you stupid MF'er? To this day, when I see this guy I want to punch him in the face.

4) Flying back from Asia with a guy who was going to change, hop on a DC flight when we got in, and go knock on doors to try and get the age changed. he couldn't give two s**ts what effect this would have on the junior guys.

The UAL management team that KNEW they were going to be removing a giant chunk of their domestic operation and "conceded" into giving domestic work rules makes me sick. In retrospect, how much did those work rules end up costing them?

I could just as easily sit back and wait for the dust to settle, I'm still going to be a widebody guy in NY but, at some point, we have got to STOP a** fu**ing the lower end of the spectrum in order to give to the upper...that's all I'm saying. I firmly believe that is what is behind this issue, if someone can show me that is not the case, then I'm all in.

The fact that guys like you have been out for that long while the pin striped MF'ers line their pockets makes me sick. I'm ready to torch the place, I'm just waiting for the nod.

At least I know exactly where you are coming from - thanks for the post.

 

[becket]

Wait till they join USAPA. . .

No other pilot group in the World is as Dumb as the Eastholes. UAL isn't going anywhere.

 

[waveflyer]

Thatsa nice generic about sticking up for the junior-
I'd set it up a bit clearer-
1- Sticking up and fighting for the QOL of the junior and smaller a/c sends so many messages-
The opposite shows mgmt that you can be divided

One payscale will pay for itself in droves when it comes to unity. The paycuts at alps carriers are due to a lack of unity caused by short term policies that don't look out for all-

UPS style is a win-win for all, even the company.

A UAL 747capt medical retiree will cause 12 training events- many of whom don't want to be in training and don't want to move airplanes, but are forced to for financial reasons- one payscale is efficient as geezers will now choose domestic flying and stay in the same time zone- and more pilots will be represented more fairly as those with influence and seniority are spread throughout the fleet based on personal preference and not on wry of pay- one payscale puts an end to the trainig ripple effect waste and that can be used as leverage for higher blended wages.

Win- win - win