Message From UAL MEC Chariman

[sleeves]

If we ever get 747-800's then a rate could be negotiated at that time. It could pay more than the 400, just like our 737-800 & 900 pay more than the 737-300,500,700. The 747-400 and the 777 pay the same at United now. This reeks of a seniority grab by United.

 

[Flopgut]

UAL has 26 744's, Cal has 48 wide bodies. Who's to say the 744 won't be replaced with the 748? If we set a precedent of paying the 777/744 the same with seating of 283/374 respectively, whats next? paying the 733 the same as the 753? Banding the 320/319, 735/733 is acceptable but to band totally different size aircraft is not a good precedent for future negotiations. Just because DAL does it doesn't make it right! In the long run this will benefit the WHOLE pilot group.

I hear what you're saying. But your first sentence kinda spells out where I think this airline is headed. CAL flies small planes like they are widebodies and CAL mgt is who's going to run this outfit. I'd love to be wrong and have a bunch of 748s someday, but it's such a remote possibility it's not worth considering. We'll all make more money in the long run if CAL equipment pay philosophies prevail. If UAL mgt was going to continue to run the airline, I might agree with you.

A little backround: Texas Intl pilots tried to tell the old Continental pilots how to handle Lorenzo. Old CAL didn't listen because they were larger, had larger airplanes and were more established. Well, I can promise you there is not one old CAL guy that doesn't regret not listening to the TI pilots. This issue is no different.

 

[whatitdoing?]

If we ever get 747-800's then a rate could be negotiated at that time. It could pay more than the 400, just like our 737-800 & 900 pay more than the 737-300,500,700. The 747-400 and the 777 pay the same at United now. This reeks of a seniority grab by United.

Absolutely. It's amazing how our United counterparts are playing their games. Fine, let's put everything on hold for your apparent seniority grab. Thanks for working together, knew it was a smoke screen.

 

[johnsonrod]

UAL has 26 744's, Cal has 48 wide bodies. Who's to say the 744 won't be replaced with the 748? If we set a precedent of paying the 777/744 the same with seating of 283/374 respectively, whats next? paying the 733 the same as the 753? Banding the 320/319, 735/733 is acceptable but to band totally different size aircraft is not a good precedent for future negotiations. Just because DAL does it doesn't make it right! In the long run this will benefit the WHOLE pilot group.

So, it will benefit your whole group? I guess that means there will be no fences (according to you), so everyone can bid the 744s, right? That would be fair I guess(in your eyes). If there is a fence, then the 744 and 777 payrates should be the same, period. Otherwise, it is just devisive for the whole group, and that isn't playing NICE. Thanks United MEC--you senior jerks. Top equipment at each airline should get the same rate, period. Wake up. This smells like the new USAir.

 

[johnsonrod]

Bwaaahaaahaaa. That is too funny. thanks for a good laugh. Yes I will call my LEC rep and say " please just give JB and the CAL MEC whatever they want b/c they know what is best for me. In fact, just proxy your future MEC votes to JB please."

Are you prepared to give the CAL pilots the right to immediately bid over to the 744 without fences? If you aren't, then you need to quit crying yourself and allow the top aircraft at each airline to make the SAME pay. That is only fair. What's great is that both MECs may have to go to ALPA National to try to get this resolved, and the new National President is a Delta guy, who constructed the joint pay proposal there, which had the 777 and 744 paid the same at Delta. You're gonna lose!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Looks like CAL is protecting the over 60 pilots again.

How many over 60 pilots did CAL have in the training department and in fake management positions waiting for the over 60 rule to change? 100, 200 over 60 pilots prior to Dec. 13, 2007!

Talk about a seniority grab. 200 guys are on the list today who should not be and the EWR LEC rep is protecting them again while hurting everyone in the process on both sides!

The protection of 200 at the expense of 11,000!

And all while the EWR rep plays a love triangle with the IAH sec. treasury against the IAH reps. running to his buddy the CAL MEC chairman to tell him the latest gossip. Outrageous!

 

[captbert]

Looks like CAL is protecting the over 60 pilots again.

How many over 60 pilots did CAL have in the training department and in fake management positions waiting for the over 60 rule to change? 100, 200 over 60 pilots prior to Dec. 13, 2007!

Talk about a seniority grab. 200 guys are on the list today who should not be and the EWR LEC rep is protecting them again while hurting everyone in the process on both sides!

The protection of 200 at the expense of 11,000!

And all while the EWR rep plays a love triangle with the IAH sec. treasury against the IAH reps. running to his buddy the CAL MEC chairman to tell him the latest gossip. Outrageous!

You need to check your facts. There were only 17 hidden instructors/management pilots over 60 when the law passed, and its being grieved.

 

[FDJ2]

At the end of the day pay rates, both pre-merger and JCBA, were inconsequential in constructing the DAL/NWA seniority list.

Arguments from different perspectives were made by both sides, but it really didn't matter much.

Don't let this derail your merger.

Get a JCBA and keep the pay issues associated with the JCBA out of the seniority list process.

 

[Mr.B]

The precedent was set when UAL signed the contract they are currently working under.

Yeah so lets negotiate a contract that uses a concession-filled BK contract as a template.

What a moron

 

[Axel]

It looks like the 70+ seat RJ's are going to be safe for a while.

 

[COpilot]

Looks like CAL is protecting the over 60 pilots again.

How many over 60 pilots did CAL have in the training department and in fake management positions waiting for the over 60 rule to change? 100, 200 over 60 pilots prior to Dec. 13, 2007!

Stop shooting off your trap with no facts. 200/100/60 BS numbers just to piss people off? What A$$ you are. Craw back in your hole and don't come out unless you have something with merit to say.

And yes, I agree with you that the (17) hide outs were a BS deal; and should have never been allowed to be here.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

You need to check your facts. There were only 17 hidden instructors/management pilots over 60 when the law passed, and its being grieved.

17 is more than 0 and a fake number.

17 only includes those who were in management and by FAR also needed to be qualified as line pilots by law. i.e. A chief pilot needs to be a legal current qualified part 121 line pilot by FAR and at the time under 60 to be in such a position.

But the 17 number does not include large numbers of over 60 pilots being held in off-line training positions not needing to be legally qualified part 121 pilots who remained on the seniority list. And while they were not in violation of FAR's in their off-line positions their seniority was kept alive on the overall seniority list.

And at the time every other airline was retiring pilots on their 60th birthday prior to Dec. 13, 2007.

How long is the grievance going to take? 5 years. And then what does it matter? CAL ALPA is worthless. And so are the CAL pilots if they are not outraged by this injustice.

 

[densoo]

"In contrast, the United MEC believes negotiations for a JCBA and the SLI process should remain on separate tracks."

Doublespeak from Capt Morris worthy of Carl Rove saying that Max Cleland (who is a triple amputee from war) is unpatriotic. Great stuff. They were on separate tracks until the UAL MEC jumped in.

The two MECs agreed to let the negotiating committees do their business without interference to bring to the table a JCBA. When the UAL NC made rational decisions based on the information in front of them, the UAL MEC disagreed. They broke the agreement to let the NCs arrive at a JCBA and jumped into the process.

Now UAL MEC will delay the contract until they don't even have 747s on the property anymore, all the while CAL grows their mainline with dozens of new aircraft coming online, all furloughs returned, and hiring (ironically, UAL pilots) in the spring. All the while UAL has 1500 furloughs back to 1999. Every day that goes by UAL "career expectations" diminish while CAL's increase.

Additional bonus: retropay check gets bigger every day.

...."if the United pilots don’t give him what he wants, he will hold up negotiations for years"--one can only hope.

 

[captbert]

17 is more than 0 and a fake number.

17 only includes those who were in management and by FAR also needed to be qualified as line pilots by law. i.e. A chief pilot needs to be a legal current qualified part 121 line pilot by FAR and at the time under 60 to be in such a position.

But the 17 number does not include large numbers of over 60 pilots being held in off-line training positions not needing to be legally qualified part 121 pilots who remained on the seniority list. And while they were not in violation of FAR's in their off-line positions their seniority was kept alive on the overall seniority list.

And at the time every other airline was retiring pilots on their 60th birthday prior to Dec. 13, 2007.

How long is the grievance going to take? 5 years. And then what does it matter? CAL ALPA is worthless. And so are the CAL pilots if they are not outraged by this injustice.

It was 17 and only 17. That is the total number of pilots that were over 60 and on our seniority list when the law changed. I have the seniority lists with birth dates to prove it.

I'm sure it will take another 2 years to have the grievance/lawsuit settled. Just long enough for them all to retire. I am outraged over it, but its out of may hands. I have done all I can do personally so why should I continue to stress over it.

As far as CAL ALPA being worthless, I cant argue there. But I am sure glad they are digging there heals in on your cheep seniority grab with the 744. I will sit on the 767 making more money than your 744 guys for as long as it takes for you to pull your collective heads out of your butts.

Just remember over the next few years CAL has a greater percentage of pilots retiring and CAL has yearly deliveries of mid and widebody airplanes. UAL's airplanes don't show up for another 5 years.

As far as I'm concerned you can keep all your 744's, crappy pay rates, 70 seat RJ's, aging airplanes, and Air Lingus JV. Wow with that list it looks like UAL ALPA has been worthless too.

Ciao

 

[bluefin]

Screw all of this, SCOPE should be first and foremost!!! Like the CAL mec stated,"whats the point of getting pay/seniority when your on the street without a job". That should be the most important satement to live by!

 

[CAL EWR B737]

You want me to grow up? How about asking the union to grow up. Instead of working together they are working to further divide our pilot groups. Lets start a pool. How many current union "leaders" at CAL and UAL will move on to management positions in the next 5 years?

It will be a cold day in hell when this CAL REP Goes To Management!
Will never happen!

Jayson Baron
EWR CAL CA Rep

 

[Flopgut]

CAL-MEC and its officers have advocated that the compensation proposal be crafted a certain way – specifically with regard to which aircraft are banded together – in the hopes of “leveling the playing field” and attempting to thwart our predominantly large wide body fleet.

Thwart?! Thwart what Wendy? What are you talking about? Why would there be any "thwarting" going on if you want to keep JCBA wages out of SLI!!?? Because unless you intend to somehow insert the separate, higher 744 pay rate into the SLI equation there is absolutely nothing to "thwart"! Seriously. I think she just screwed up and revealed a lie in her own letter.

CAL guys: Brucia knows what to do with this.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Hvy,

Call your reps and ask them. Don't listen to the guy you're flying with. Ask a REP.

The JOINT negotiating committee came to an agreement on Section 3. There is no disputing this fact. The CAL MEC approved of the JNC's agreement. The UAL MEC did not.

What is written above is 100% accurate.

Jayson Baron
EWR CAL CA Rep

 

[AWACoff]

At the end of the day pay rates, both pre-merger and JCBA, were inconsequential in constructing the DAL/NWA seniority list.

Arguments from different perspectives were made by both sides, but it really didn't matter much.

Don't let this derail your merger.

Get a JCBA and keep the pay issues associated with the JCBA out of the seniority list process.

Please see Section XI, Paragraph C.1 through C.4 of the Ground Rules For The Northwest-Delta Pilot Seniority Integration Arbitration:
XI. Joint Exhibits and Stipulations.

The following documents shall be considered Joint Exhibits and shall be submitted to the Board prior to the commencement of the arbitration:

C. 1., 2., 3 and 4. Northwest and Delta Pre-Merger and Combined Collective Bargaining and Retirement Agreements, and Delta LOA 19.


FDJ2, you are incorrect.

 

[Flopgut]

It looks like the 70+ seat RJ's are going to be safe for a while.

If anything, it's an even more precarious situatuion for Skywest now....

 

[mamba20]

It will be a cold day in hell when this CAL REP Goes To Management!
Will never happen!

Jayson Baron
EWR CAL CA Rep

Good to hear that, hopefully the rest of LEC and MEC officers follow. If so, I might just start believe in ALPA again. I know its perfectly legal but you know what would really turn some of us ALPA haters around? If all the union officers signed some sort of affidavit swearing that they will not take a management position for X number of years.

 

[Axel]

If anything, it's an even more precarious situatuion for Skywest now....

The 70+ seaters are going to continue to fly until a JCBA is attained. Looks to me (from the outside) like the groups are not keeping their eye on the ball.

 

[EWR_FO]

Yeah so lets negotiate a contract that uses a concession-filled BK contract as a template.

What a moron

You might want to check a few facts before you shoot your mouth off. Section Three was ALREADY negotiated by BOTH negotiating committees, THEN the UAL MEC decided to renege. If you can't see this an anything other than a seniority grab, I can't help you.

 

[FDJ2]

Please see Section XI, Paragraph C.1 through C.4 of the Ground Rules For The Northwest-Delta Pilot Seniority Integration Arbitration:
XI. Joint Exhibits and Stipulations.

The following documents shall be considered Joint Exhibits and shall be submitted to the Board prior to the commencement of the arbitration:

C. 1., 2., 3 and 4. Northwest and Delta Pre-Merger and Combined Collective Bargaining and Retirement Agreements, and Delta LOA 19.


FDJ2, you are incorrect.

No actually you make my point.

I stated that arguments were made by both sides on pay rates, but that that the pay rates both pre merger and JCBA were inconsequential to the construction of the list.

IOW, you are wasting your breath and wasting an opportunity. Don't let it derail your merger.

Sign a seniority list process agreement that excludes JCBA pay rates from the discusion if it makes you feel better and then get on with it.

 

[Flopgut]

The 70+ seaters are going to continue to fly until a JCBA is attained. Looks to me (from the outside) like the groups are not keeping their eye on the ball.

Not CAL flying they won't. Matter of fact, better advise Skywest pilots not to bid any of it. Let the company assign it. That's the only way they can keep their names off a list... If the airplanes take off in the first place.

 

[Crzipilot]

A list...ohhhhhh...noooo.... CAL knows about lists I think, see how bad it was for them.......the irony....

Is there a strike going on? A message from Nat'l talking of pilot not flying those new routes? etc etc etc? Where's the statement from the CAL mec regarding this?

 

[imacdog]

More particularly, the CAL-MEC and its officers have advocated that the compensation proposal be crafted a certain way – specifically with regard to which aircraft are banded together – in the hopes of “leveling the playing field” and attempting to thwart our predominantly large wide body fleet.

Gee, perhaps if CAL would just give away scope like United has, then they could have a predominantly wide body fleet too!

 

[Yuppyguppy]

CAL guys...I'm with you on this. I don't understand why UAL MEC is protecting 24 747s from the banding. Frankly we have bigger fish to fry...SCOPE and SCOPE. Get the contract, THE SCOPE, workrules and pay (figure the stupid rates out just look what DAL did) and then get the SLI done. I'm sick and tired of the bantering. The sooner we get a contract the sooner we get the teens back in the turboprops.

 

[Captain X]

And all while the EWR rep plays a love triangle with the IAH sec. treasury against the IAH reps. running to his buddy the CAL MEC chairman to tell him the latest gossip. Outrageous!

JHFC are you delusional!

Ask yourself why the stories coming out of the BOD seem to align all to one side. Hell even other MEC's (SPA, XJT, DAL) have corroborated against the story being told by BS.

I guess that kool-aid the IAH reps have been pouring you tastes really good.

 

[stein429]

East vs West all over again

Geez, this makes USAir/AWA merger look like a hop scotch contest. Can't wait to read about the outcome in the June 10, 2020 edition of the Wall Street Journal.

HA!